where did it happen?

[Katster]

That isn't our universe, that was a different one.

[eFestivals]

etc.. etc...

You'd have a point if those two things were talking about anything similar. They're not, not remotely.

Try plugging your brain in, rather than proving yourself a numptie.

[rabid]

...so, where was it?

[jump]

...so, where was it?

Edited January 13, 2011 by jump

[RABun]

The thing is we are very hung up on cause and effect. Therefore we can't theorise about something from nothing because we can't visualise or get our heads round what nothing could be. Our laws of physics start at the big bang and we can't get to what was there before because we literally can't think outside of the box.

Its the fish in water theory - there's no water to a fish. unless you take it out of its bowl and it starts to realise that he's not got something he needs. There's nothing outside this universe to us, this is just the way it is.

God in Old Harry's Game says that the big bang was an accident, i think he dropped something. Man evolving was for a bet.

[dakyras]

You'd have a point if those two things were talking about anything similar. They're not, not remotely.

Try plugging your brain in, rather than proving yourself a numptie.

[rabid]

so not much different to having to rethink that the earth isn't flat really...?

everything is based on our laws of physics, without a nanosecond given to the possibility that things might not be as they seem...

the concept that at one point there was nothing... even the nothing must have been something

or could have been

[eFestivals]

They are related. You are trying to apply 'rules' you're familiar with, to a deity. Which is ridiculous.

Nope, I'm applying the definition of words to the usage of those words.

In your version of life, you must have the world's biggest cock despite it being teeny. After all, a sentence can mean anything you like if you invent your own definitions for the words used.

[feral chile]

a bit of both really..

i think

I can't help the feeling that there must be at least one, if not many, other options

that's all we have for now

but...

back to my original question, which was if there was a big bang, where did it happen?

Edited January 13, 2011 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I've got to a point where I think everything is a contradiction... all the opposites are true, right down to we are everything and nothing at the same time

it's just when I see, or read about how everything came from an unimaginably tiny speck (which I can just about get my head round), I can't help wondering 'where' it happened

[feral chile]

There wasn't an outside.

[feral chile]

I know I can't prove free will.

But what I can logically prove is that if there is free will, there can be no working "grand plan" for god or evolution, because free will undermines any plan there might be.

And of course, if there's not free will (which means there must be a god of some sort who is manipulating things), then god is a liar because he's said we have free will.

So either way, the standard ideas we hold for a god don't get to stand up to logical examination.

[Greeny_Musicchild]

In reply to the OP (and i don't know if anyones mentioned it already, there was a great episode of Horizon on this subject last year.

Part1/6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bGx3UB-Slg

[feral chile]

In reply to the OP (and i don't know if anyones mentioned it already, there was a great episode of Horizon on this subject last year.

Part1/6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bGx3UB-Slg

[Greeny_Musicchild]

Watch the other parts, it does get better. They discuss several different theories as to what happened before the big bang.

edit:

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Edited January 13, 2011 by Greeny_Musicchild

[llcoolphil]

Also, if God is omniscient, He knows every choice you'll make before you make it.

[feral chile]

Isn't there some study somewhere that suggests we make every decision subconsciously before we become aware of it - sometimes a few seconds. There's a reference to it here

http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/blog/articles/subconscious-decision.htm

but I cant find a precis of the original research that approaches my ability to understand!

The general point being if we do have free will, how much free will do we have if we are making decisions we aren't aware of?

Edited January 13, 2011 by feral chile

[llcoolphil]

But if we're still making a decision, albeit one we couldn't help but make, as long as our brain has the capacity to evaluate choices, isn't that free will? Do we have to be conscious of the process itself?

[feral chile]

If the brain is pre-programmed to make those choices, we have had no say in it. If we have had no say in the creation of the apparatus that gives us free will and we have no say in the action of exercising that free will, how much free will do we have? And what do we say of those with brains that are damaged, either from birth or some point after? If their functions are limited, is there free will limited also?

[llcoolphil]

The ability to make decisions has to count as free will, surely?

[feral chile]

Is that the only thing that defines it, the abilty to make decisions? And if it is, Im back to the bit about brain damaged people who dont have the ability to make decisions not having free will. And if we accept that argument, we then have to accept that we need a grading scale of brain ability that will at some point have to feature 'no free will', 'some free will' and ' lots of free will'. Then we are definitely down the road of some having more free will than others!

[llcoolphil]

but don't we concede that already? We section people under the Mental Health Act, we obtain Power of Attorney - all these things deny free will on the basis that people are incapable of making their own decisions. We take control away from people - as I said, i can't define free will without talking about making decisions to control our environment.

What's free will otherwise? It's a bit mystical, isn't it? Like souls?

[feral chile]

So free will is culturally defined and not a natural human condition?

[llcoolphil]

mmm... that's a tough one. |the concept of free will has a high value culturally, but I think free will is a perception - our awareness of ourselves as a causal agent.

[worm]

Perhaps. But it still won't change the meaningless of humanity's existence.