Small festivals feeling the pinch

[grumpyhack]

I was very disappointed to discover this week that one of my favourite festivals the Trowbridge Village Pump has been cancelled this year - mainly due to cashflow/poor advance ticket sales.

It's not as though it's a new festival; it's been running for 37 years - as long as Glasto, and has an established reputation and loyal following. But it looks as though it could be one of many casualties this year. 5co77ie has commented that festival listings are way down this year.

Is it just that the economic outlook is so uncertain that people are unsure about committing in advance or is something else going on?

Link here /index.php?showtopic=156346">http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=156346 in case you've missed it.

Edited February 9, 2011 by grumpyhack

[5co77ie]

I didn't say 'way down' I said something like noticeably lower - it's still only in the twenties I'd estimate.

I think now people are waiting for line-ups. Those that have sold early birds are either well liked, and have a good return rate, or have come out early with a few names.

Just out of interest had you bought a ticket to Trowbridge? If you hadn't what was your reasoning?

[grumpyhack]

I didn't say 'way down' I said something like noticeably lower - it's still only in the twenties I'd estimate.

I think now people are waiting for line-ups. Those that have sold early birds are either well liked, and have a good return rate, or have come out early with a few names.

Just out of interest had you bought a ticket to Trowbridge? If you hadn't what was your reasoning?

[5co77ie]

Looks like Melvin Benn has pointed out that even for big events with popular headliners - you can't just hold a gig in a field - saying falling sales might mean organisers concentrated more on improving the festival experience rather than booking bigger acts, means perhaps the big boys realise they won't survive without more consideration of their punters, when he said, "What we may be looking at is a bit of a reshaping of what a festival is, becoming less dependent on headliners and more dependent on an overall vibe, an overall feel and experience."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/14446562

Edited August 9, 2011 by 5co77ie

[Kowalski]

I think now people are waiting for line-ups.

[5co77ie]

This.

That's certainly my feeling towards towards a lot of festivals these days. I no longer seem to have any definites every year, I wait and see who's playing.

[t8yman]

I dont have any experience of the smaller festivals, but the big festies need to concentrate on the experience, as the headliners are the same sort of thing every year. yes the weather is a massive factor too.

[rexclark]

I definately think the expeience is becoming more important. People look for more variety at fests now, not just a load of bands. Obviously not all festivals can have as much variety as Glastonbury but festivals do need to do their best to vary the entertainment that goes on. Hopefully the slow sales of Reading and Leeds tickets this year will cause Melvin to have a rethink of the booking process and what other experiences the festival can provide.

Edited August 9, 2011 by rexclark

[eFestivals]

I definately think the expeience is becoming more important. People look for more variety at fests now, not just a load of bands. Obviously not all festivals can have as much variety as Glastonbury but festivals do need to do their best to vary the entertainment that goes on. Hopefully the slow sales of Reading and Leeds tickets this year will cause Melvin to have a rethink of the booking process and what other experiences the festival can provide.

it depends what you mean by 'vary'.

My thoughts are that the sustainable festivals have a theme, with everything centred around that theme. There's already too many festivals which are simply about sticking some bands on a stage without any sort of strand to hold things together. While these can be successful, they're also the sort of thing which any unimaginative person can put on, meaning that they have nothing about them that enables them to stand out - and eventually they'll get lost amongst the rest.

[rexclark]

it depends what you mean by 'vary'.

My thoughts are that the sustainable festivals have a theme, with everything centred around that theme. There's already too many festivals which are simply about sticking some bands on a stage without any sort of strand to hold things together. While these can be successful, they're also the sort of thing which any unimaginative person can put on, meaning that they have nothing about them that enables them to stand out - and eventually they'll get lost amongst the rest.

[eFestivals]

I personally think Melvin needs to have a serious rethink of what he wants R&L to be as at the moment it just seems to be a clusterf**k and has been going down that road since competition came from Download and Sonisphere. There's nothing unique about R&L anymore, it's like a combination of about three different line ups. What can they do? I don't really know. Perhaps go for a more "Alternative" line up but then that won't sell tickets either. I do feel that festivals nowadays need to offer more, better selection of booze, better food and more entertainment during the day and afterhours.

It was always obvious that Download would undermine R/L.

I always thought that Live Nation/Festival Republic would keep Download as the more minor of the two, knowing that the bands available to sustain a metal/rock fest aren't numerous enough, and having seen its audience fall away previously due to lack of interest.

But they seem to have gone the other way, and are giving Download the priority. The only take I can make on that is LN would prefer Download to be the success story, because LN only own about 50% of R/L but own all of Download. I personally feel that this is something they'll come to regret if they're really giving Download the priority of the two.

It's certainly the case that FR/LN need to offer better beer at their fests. At Big Chill at the weekend there was no bitter (not even the awful fizzy stuff) available at any of the main bars; there was a tent serving just two (decent) beers near the main stage. This meant that I didn't want to leave the area around the main stage, because I didn't want to have to walk two fields in each direction just for a beer - and yet there was almost nothing I wanted to see on the main stage. It made the fest a waste of time to me, I certainly wouldn't go back if I was paying for a ticket.

I'm not sure what the answers are, but festivals are stopping being about 'credible music' and are instead trying harder each year to attract mindless pop fans - back at the Big Chill again they had Jessie J, and it was hugely noticeable that the crowd was made up primarily of under-16 year old girls. While such youngsters are the audience of the future, they're not going to want to associate themselves with festivals who have shown themselves as so uncool that they can attract and keep happy that pre-16 version of themselves, that's the stuff for kids - and when kids grow up they throw off childish things.

I wrote a piece about 7 years ago where I said something like "now that festivals are so safe that you can take your grannie, how long have they got in satisfying the more credible music fans that have been their life-blood?" I think I might have nailed it back then.

[rexclark]

It's certainly the case that FR/LN need to offer better beer at their fests. At Big Chill at the weekend there was no bitter (not even the awful fizzy stuff) available at any of the main bars; there was a tent serving just two (decent) beers near the main stage. This meant that I didn't want to leave the area around the main stage, because I didn't want to have to walk two fields in each direction just for a beer - and yet there was almost nothing I wanted to see on the main stage. It made the fest a waste of time to me, I certainly wouldn't go back if I was paying for a ticket.

I'm not sure what the answers are, but festivals are stopping being about 'credible music' and are instead trying harder each year to attract mindless pop fans - back at the Big Chill again they had Jessie J, and it was hugely noticeable that the crowd was made up primarily of under-16 year old girls. While such youngsters are the audience of the future, they're not going to want to associate themselves with festivals who have shown themselves as so uncool that they can attract and keep happy that pre-16 version of themselves, that's the stuff for kids - and when kids grow up they throw off childish things.

I wrote a piece about 7 years ago where I said something like "now that festivals are so safe that you can take your grannie, how long have they got in satisfying the more credible music fans that have been their life-blood?" I think I might have nailed it back then.

[eFestivals]

I also think FR need to look into the food options at Leeds (I assume Reading is the same) as it's very basic and always has been but punters nowadays want more.

I've never been to Leeds, but I do know that at Reading they've made some big efforts over the last ten-ish years to improve what it has - they've even employed Glasto's market manager to do it for them.

But even then I suspect that it's not too exciting - the simple fact is that with so many festival punters being the same punters year after year, they've tried just about every food option that's available so find little to particularly excite them.

As for the line ups, I've been looking back at Reading line ups and even as early as the late 90s the line ups have been getting diluted, 95 was probably the last real alternative line up. It's very hard to judge what they can do, perhaps downsizing the fests slightly and focussing more on getting acts that don't play every festival as having a lineup which is full of acts that are playing or have played everywhere else clearly just doesn't cut it anymore.

It's always a bit dangerous to use past line-ups in that way, because they look far better with age than they would have looked at the time. For example, Muse will be on some of those old line-ups, but that was Muse as a comparative (compared to today) nobody ... when you look at that line-up with hindsight you tend to think "wow, they had Muse who are mega".

But you're definitely in the right area saying that it's all the same acts on repeat (either repeating at a particular fest or being at all the fests). About the only larger festivals who manage to put on something that is really different is Glastonbury - but with so many acts (including the 'repeat acts') they'll be space for some more unusual ones - and WOMAD which doesn't do the indie or pop thing at all.

I'm starting to have difficulties seeing where all of the music industry goes from here. The radio and sales side of things started to break down around ten years ago. The live side of things boomed for a while but has fallen away now in favour of festivals ... and now festivals are falling away.

So what's going to drive acts into becoming the new mega-stars of the future? I can't see how they're going to come about. If we treat music as disposable - and that's now how most see it for a variety of reasons (mostly related to downloading, both legal and illegal) - then eventually we get to dispose of the whole business model that brought it to us in the first place ... and there's nothing coming thru as a replacement.

[grumpyhack]

My decision to go to any particular festival has never been based on the music but the general atmosphere, ethos and other things. For me it's an event first with music attached. If I just want music I go to a concert or gig.

Edited August 9, 2011 by grumpyhack

[luckysalt]

Neils comments about LN wanting to have the bigger bands at Download rather tha Reading is simply Bullshit. Download gets what Download gets, and thats due to bands touring at said time.

System of A Down headlined Download this year becasue thats when they wanted to tour Europe, play Rock AM Ring, Greenfield, Nova Rock, Swedenrock, Hell Fest [i know they didn't play all those] all these European Rock festivals that take place at that time of year.

Soni gets to choose from whos playing TITP, Werchter, Beni

and then Reading gets whoever is touring late summer, Area 4, Pukklepop, Frequency etc

Depends when the band whats to tour Europe and when they want to play the States. Nowadays the bands try to do as much touring as possible due to album sales down so they want to make it up on dates and merch.

I'll tell you whats killing festival sales.

1- price

2- lack of dispossable income

3- price of things at the festival beer/food etc

4- too many festivals, but all of them wanting to sign bands on exclusives, so if they are still around touring they have to pick one major festival because they have to play as an exclusive, this is the promotors not the artists choice. Its bullshit. If your festival is good, people will come, do away with the exclusives, its making everyones line ups weaker and weaker every year.

It will be interesting just how Phoenix fits into things next year, it will surely be going for a similar line up to Reading, I can see V becoming even more poptastic than ever, cus it can book those artists easy, no one else wants them, and they're the only fest doing it, they get the sales easy. Theres a big gap in the market for a festival that has the line ups that V had when it arrived on the scene and that Phoenix used to have, not many rock acts, a few, no pop, and just indie acts with a healthy dose of dance acts.

I think this will be the market Phoenix goes for, theres too much competition elsewhere.

[eFestivals]

Neils comments about LN wanting to have the bigger bands at Download rather tha Reading is simply Bullshit. Download gets what Download gets, and thats due to bands touring at said time.

It's not JUST that.

The bands are touring, so they're (in nearly all cases) available to play either Reading or Download. Which they get to play depends on which gives them an offer - and I believe it's the case that the bookers for Reading and the bookers for Download have agreed to not go for the same bands (as all it achieves is putting the price of bands up for what is ultimately the same company).

It's pretty clear that Download is getting first call on many bands, bands that in the past would have played R/L - and this is undermining the strength of line-up of R/L, which then (if the 'replacement' acts aren't as big a draw) affects its ability to shift tickets.

System of A Down headlined Download this year becasue thats when they wanted to tour Europe, play Rock AM Ring, Greenfield, Nova Rock, Swedenrock, Hell Fest [i know they didn't play all those] all these European Rock festivals that take place at that time of year.

Soni gets to choose from whos playing TITP, Werchter, Beni

and then Reading gets whoever is touring late summer, Area 4, Pukklepop, Frequency etc

Depends when the band whats to tour Europe and when they want to play the States. Nowadays the bands try to do as much touring as possible due to album sales down so they want to make it up on dates and merch.

When a band tours is as much dependent on the bookings it has as when that band wants to tour - for example, if SOAD didn't have booking for early summer, then they wouldn't tour early summer. So them touring in early summer has come about because Download booked them for early summer, just as R/L booking them had them touring in late summer in other years. And of course if the wedge on offer is good enough, they'll tour any time.

I'll tell you whats killing festival sales.

1- price

2- lack of dispossable income

3- price of things at the festival beer/food etc

4- too many festivals, but all of them wanting to sign bands on exclusives, so if they are still around touring they have to pick one major festival because they have to play as an exclusive, this is the promotors not the artists choice. Its bullshit. If your festival is good, people will come, do away with the exclusives, its making everyones line ups weaker and weaker every year.

It will be interesting just how Phoenix fits into things next year, it will surely be going for a similar line up to Reading, I can see V becoming even more poptastic than ever, cus it can book those artists easy, no one else wants them, and they're the only fest doing it, they get the sales easy. Theres a big gap in the market for a festival that has the line ups that V had when it arrived on the scene and that Phoenix used to have, not many rock acts, a few, no pop, and just indie acts with a healthy dose of dance acts.

I think this will be the market Phoenix goes for, theres too much competition elsewhere.

Ticket price is, I think, less of a factor than you're thinking. There's been plenty of very cheap fests that have failed to sell many tickets, both this year and in previous ones.

I'd say that 'overall price' is more relevant - as in how much the whole experience costs you, when travel and food and beer is factored in. If beer is Live Nation's £4 a pint then the costs of attending are hugely increased above the £3 a pint seen at some other fests this summer.

I also think that the gulag experience that some festivals give is very off-putting, and slowly killing the market. Festivals started with them having an idea of freedom within the fest, whereas the reality nowadays is that there's repression by rules and security that's waaaaay beyond what anyone would accept in 'normal life'. If you want to go out from your 'home' (tent) then you have to be subjected to a search - would you accept that on leaving your house?

But yeah, the fact that no festival is now abl; to give a unique experience with bands is also a big factor. Even the fests which have their bands on a exclusive basis don't really have exclusivity, because we all know that next summer they'll be available to see at another fest.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I'm not sure what the answers are, but festivals are stopping being about 'credible music' and are instead trying harder each year to attract mindless pop fans - back at the Big Chill again they had Jessie J, and it was hugely noticeable that the crowd was made up primarily of under-16 year old girls. While such youngsters are the audience of the future, they're not going to want to associate themselves with festivals who have shown themselves as so uncool that they can attract and keep happy that pre-16 version of themselves, that's the stuff for kids - and when kids grow up they throw off childish things.

[jump]

There is a one day event, Towneley Live, that is having the problem of who it is pitching to. With a line up of The Staurdays and N-Dubz it is aimed at the teens, but originally they priced adult tickets at over £40. Also there is no alcohol in the arena at all, not even sales within. Their logic is that if you want a drink you can use the pubs opposite. mm Good plan. Anyway they planned on 30,000 attendance and have sold over 6,000 so they have reduced the price down to 20 quid.

[zahidf]

Two things a line up needs:

1. A good line up

2. A good reputation.

Something like Glastonbury can rely on it's good reputation when the line up is not as good. Something like Reading needs a good reputation to overcome it's bad reputation.

End of the Road and Guilfest have both on a smaller scale. Summer Sundae is losing the line up but still has the rep. But then, V has neither and still sells out!

[pink_triangle]

But then, V has neither and still sells out!

[eFestivals]

There is a one day event, Towneley Live, that is having the problem of who it is pitching to. With a line up of The Staurdays and N-Dubz it is aimed at the teens, but originally they priced adult tickets at over £40. Also there is no alcohol in the arena at all, not even sales within. Their logic is that if you want a drink you can use the pubs opposite. mm Good plan. Anyway they planned on 30,000 attendance and have sold over 6,000 so they have reduced the price down to 20 quid.

it's this sort of non-musically-credible event that I can see the Big Chill turning into if it doesn't do something sharpish. Because of its fairly remote location and that nothing really happens there in a musical sense it'll have a market if aimed in that direction, but it's totally at odds with what the event was always about until taken over by FR.

Festivals need an identity if they're to survive, because otherwise why go to that particular event and not another that's near-identical? They can even have that identity on a year-by-year basis with it changing each year, but I can't see what sort of theme there was meant to have been this year at the Big Chill, it just seemed so scatter-gun that I'm having huge trouble seeing who would have been attracted to it this year by what it offered as opposed to its reputation (and this feeling about it was enhanced by my attending it - it wasn't so strong before I went).

[eFestivals]

Then again V knows its audience and while the line up doesnt suit me, v offers something safe that a lot of people enjoy.

yep - while there's a lot I could say to slate V, it's still the case that it's very good at what it tries to do, and that it pretty much delivers what it aims at. It's 'festival lite', but that suits an awful lot of people.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Have they offered to refund the difference to the 6k that did buy tixs?

[zahidf]

yep - while there's a lot I could say to slate V, it's still the case that it's very good at what it tries to do, and that it pretty much delivers what it aims at. It's 'festival lite', but that suits an awful lot of people.

[eFestivals]

True, but it has even less imagination than reading. The same bands seem to play every year really, and very few of them are 'exclusive'. I just wonder how it seems to be doing better than Reading at the moment.

It's a 'pure' pop festival - imagination isn't what its about. Pop fans don't have imagination, which is why they like pop.

And it's certainly no worse than Reading/Leeds at having the same bands play every year, and it's certainly no worse (and I'd say significantly better) than Reading at getting the acts for the top of the bill on an exclusive basis.

Not only that, it's (finally ... for a while it was mostly a bad clone) more on the ball with the current music scene than Reading is - which is why V has sold out while Reading hasn't.

Of course, they'll always be a much bigger audience for the mainstream music of V than they'll be for the more 'specialised' music of Reading so it really should always do better. But the flip side to that is once festivals stop being so fashionable then it's much more likely IMO that V will fade the faster of the two, because none of what it offers couldn't be served up to that audience in a different way - so there's not really any reason for why people would go to that festival outside of festivals being fashionable.

But having said that, I don't see either of these festivals as being festivals with a limited future. If some of the bigger fests are going to die, then I think that others are far more likely than these two (and of course the death of others will give these ones an audience boost).