Depression - TalkSport Diagnosis

[eFestivals]

I know several people who have suffered addiction problems in their lives, all of whom have also got depressive personalities.

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that there can't be a link between depression and addiction, I'm just saying that I think it's far less solid a link than worm's words suggested, from my own experience of addicts.

I'd say that the majority of addicts are running towards something of pleasure (if only transitory, because of the nature of addictive drugs) rather than running away from something of displeasure.

Some people go and see bands for fun; others take drugs for fun. The link in such cases is the want of fun, not anything about wanting to use that fun to mask an existing pain.

[kaosmark2]

Woo! 3 cheers for anecdotal evidence!

[eFestivals]

Woo! 3 cheers for anecdotal evidence!

when such a sweeping and unsourced statement is made as it was that's so strongly counter to a person's experiences, then it's hardly stupid to credit those experiences as being of more worth than that statement.

Or do you accept everything anyone tells you no matter how much it's at variance with your own experiences?

[Spindles]

Some people go and see bands for fun; others take drugs for fun. The link in such cases is the want of fun, not anything about wanting to use that fun to mask an existing pain.

[eFestivals]

PS ....

And while worm might now give a source to back up his statement, it's easy to see that there'll be quite a few practical problems with that evidence which can bring into doubt its worth.

For example, it's likely that the researched group will already be addicts, and addicts who have stepped forwards for treatment of some kind - which is of course at the point where they've become disillusioned with the fact of their addiction, and could quite possibly be suffering depression as a consequence of their addiction rather than the other way around.

It's also exceedingly difficult to access the group of 'happy drug takers', and so the sample is very likely to have a bias toward the unhappy drug takers.

And finally, there's a big recognised problem within drug use research of people lying about their drug use - and by more than can be factored out via trick questions.

[kaosmark2]

when such a sweeping and unsourced statement is made as it was that's so strongly counter to a person's experiences, then it's hardly stupid to credit those experiences as being of more worth than that statement.

Or do you accept everything anyone tells you no matter how much it's at variance with your own experiences?

[eFestivals]

I think that takes us into another debate: Should drugs be legal as the vast majority of the population can take them without suffering addictive problems?

You should watch that Russell Brand documentary, it is very insightful and maybe you might recognise traits in the people it speaks to or the statements made that you are able to connect to experiences in your own life/the lives of people around you and helps to enrich your knowledge/opinion in the area. It certainly did for me.

Oh, I'd definitely say there's an "addictive personality trait" of some sort - but I also know that many addicts don't have anything like that.

[kaosmark2]

PS ....

And while worm might now give a source to back up his statement, it's easy to see that there'll be quite a few practical problems with that evidence which can bring into doubt its worth.

For example, it's likely that the researched group will already be addicts, and addicts who have stepped forwards for treatment of some kind - which is of course at the point where they've become disillusioned with the fact of their addiction, and could quite possibly be suffering depression as a consequence of their addiction rather than the other way around.

It's also exceedingly difficult to access the group of 'happy drug takers', and so the sample is very likely to have a bias toward the unhappy drug takers.

And finally, there's a big recognised problem within drug use research of people lying about their drug use - and by more than can be factored out via trick questions.

[eFestivals]

It's a general dig at everyone.

"My experiences tell me this"

"Well my experiences tell me the opposite"

It's a very pointless argument, because while everyone's made the right conclusions based on what they've observed, it's not really something worth analysing in comparison to what others are reporting. Noone's going to change their mind because of what someone else says they've seen happen to a mate.

No one who has made up their mind is likely to change their mind, agreed.

But for someone reading this thread who has yet to make up their mind, it's quite important that sweeping statements like that are challenged if a person feels it needs challenging. It gets to mean that that reader doesn't go away with the impression of something being a fact when it might not be.

[eFestivals]

Indeed. I don't think psychological evidence and statistics are worth a damn either.

(this'll surprise worm )

Nothing of what I was knocking there was strictly related to psychology; it's a problem for any research in certain areas, research into sex being the most commonly recognised problem area.

[Spindles]

It's a general dig at everyone.

"My experiences tell me this"

"Well my experiences tell me the opposite"

It's a very pointless argument, because while everyone's made the right conclusions based on what they've observed, it's not really something worth analysing in comparison to what others are reporting. Noone's going to change their mind because of what someone else says they've seen happen to a mate.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that there can't be a link between depression and addiction, I'm just saying that I think it's far less solid a link than worm's words suggested, from my own experience of addicts.

I'd say that the majority of addicts are running towards something of pleasure (if only transitory, because of the nature of addictive drugs) rather than running away from something of displeasure.

Some people go and see bands for fun; others take drugs for fun. The link in such cases is the want of fun, not anything about wanting to use that fun to mask an existing pain.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

It's a general dig at everyone.

"My experiences tell me this"

"Well my experiences tell me the opposite"

It's a very pointless argument, because while everyone's made the right conclusions based on what they've observed, it's not really something worth analysing in comparison to what others are reporting. Noone's going to change their mind because of what someone else says they've seen happen to a mate.

[worm]

Woo! 3 cheers for anecdotal evidence!

[worm]

when such a sweeping and unsourced statement is made

[worm]

Indeed. I don't think psychological evidence and statistics are worth a damn either.

[eFestivals]

Statement? It was an allusion. An example of identifiable psychological factors (dependent variables) causing identifiable psychological factors (independent variable).

Stop making such a big deal of the irrelevant particulars.

In some cases, perhaps it is.

In as many cases as implied? Nope.

[kaosmark2]

To be fair the core to many addiction treatments are based on anecdotal evidence (such as the AA). I think it is due to that reason that there is a demand for evidence on the effectiveness of treatments.

[worm]

Some are, some aren't, and there's nothing that works to distinguish the two.

Edited August 22, 2012 by worm

[worm]

In some cases, perhaps it is.

[eFestivals]

Eh?

Clinically diagnosed depression is the factor being looked into. To find out a correlation requires something a little more distinct than the type of conurbation.

Eh?

I was commenting about something entirely different.

Edited August 22, 2012 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Again, what are you getting at? I don't understand your point.

[worm]

There is no reliable way to distinguish between the elements of psychological analysis that are effective and the ones that aren't.

The point being that if you can't tell what's good, what's bad and what's pointless in some independent way without fully assessing/experiencing each individual situation, the whole thing is pointless.

[worm]

Here's an interesting article that's somewhat relevant.....

Depression In The Language of Physics

Many people sometimes link their feelings, moods or even their physical condition to a parallel condition in nature, and I think I'm one of these people. One of these feelings that I want to discuss is depression. So I'll directly refer to the heart of the parallel natural condition which is Zero Gravity.

...

Gravity, as most of people know, is the process in which a mass like planet Earth pulls something from the space around it, but this is the wrong concept because in Mechanics there is nothing called pulling, there are no pulling forces. There is just pushing. All forces push, nothing pulls. And I think if you contemplate this matter in the surrounding environment for few moments you'll digest it so easily, So Earth doesn't pull anything. It is the space which pushes things to the Earth, exactly the center of the space-time curvature that the great mass of Planet Earth makes. So, in the case of Zero Gravity or Zero G, things finds no force to push them, the space doesn't push them as it is a plane space-time or call it regular.

Let us not forget that it is an article about humanities basically, not about natural sciences, but what does this scientific twaddle have to do with a humanistic feeling like depression?! -In the case of depression, the reason always lies in the condition of the empty space in which the depressed man lives. No motives to push him forward in his way. And when I say motives, I mean the pushing forces like those in nature or physics, so a man in space in a Zero G condition having no pushing forces on him is like a depressed man on Earth having no motives to push him , and both of them feel weightless but in different ways.

I know this looks strange somehow, but I'm sure that if you contemplate humanistic phenomena and your feelings, you'll certainly find parallel phenomena in nature or physics because all of us, living and non-living beings, are made exactly from the same building units, but with different quantities and arrangement , leading to different properties, but with common rules and parallel phenomena.

Mostafa A.Sokar

[Spindles]

Today I also learned something about physics. It was my previous belief that all objects had both a push and a pull force (eg: magnetic polar forces).

Thanks mr Worm, for the stuff you've posted. There's been some derailment and there was a point last night I realised I was responsible for some of that. 4 weeks ago today I was in a psychotic state, 3 weeks ago my brain was firing wildly and connecting things to such an extent I genuinely believed I would suffer a stroke, 2 weeks ago I was harassing the EDL with my every waking moment and today I am reading about psychology and physics.