Depression - TalkSport Diagnosis

[eFestivals]

Neil is right that exercise can help, but wrong in saying lack of exercise is the cause.

I didn't say "the" cause, I said "a" cause (and I think I didn't even say that with absolute certainty either, but can't be bothered to check).

There's nothing which proves that idea wrong, but there's an awful lot to suggest that the change in the activities that humans do nowadays compared to the past has a very big bearing on the instances of depression and other mental issues.

Rufus raised the point that city dwellers suffer depression at around twice the rate than non-city dwellers. I've happened to read this morning that seaside dwellers suffer depression at around half the rate of countryside dwellers too.

From what Rufus said, I took him as suggesting that the stresses of living in a city are the causes of that higher instance for city dwellers, and yet.....

People who live in the countryside are on average more physically active than city dwellers, and people who live near the seaside are on average more physically active than countryside dwellers.

I've no idea how much the issue of physical activity has been looked into as playing a big part (but not a lot appears to be the case from what I've read this morning), but as can be seen in this very thread those people who are on the inside track of the established thinking are dismissing the part exercise might play out-of-hand.

The biggest problem holding back progression in these areas is the rejection of evidence in favour of just hunches, and this thread is succeeding in proving that very true.

[worm]

It will help.

Note I said help and not cure.

Edit: and that's what I know from both personal experience and from advice given by doctors/mental health professionals.

[worm]

The cause of schizophrenia is absolutely a brain 'abnormality', and nothing else. There are many triggers that work with that cause, to bring symptoms out into the open.

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

You can't know this. There is no known cause. Only the symptoms are known.

Schizophrenia is a condition (rather than disease) characterised by its symptoms, not by its cause. If you have the symptoms, then you have the condition.

symptoms and conditions which you cannot have without the brain 'abnormality'.

[Purple Monkey]

And I firmly believe that we're living in a society where we have emotional stress that we can't flee from, or express fear of, or aggression, or do anything we're probably primed to do as primates, and that's screwing our heads up.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Purple Monkey

[worm]

symptoms and conditions which you cannot have without the brain 'abnormality'.

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

Untrue.

Wrong, but whatever.

[worm]

Wrong, but whatever.

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm

[worm]

...

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

Do you have any evidence to show a correlation between delusion and brain functioning? I very much doubt it as there isn't any.

I'm not entirely sure if the "brain functioning" you're talking about is the same thing as the brain 'abnormality' I'm talking about. It's quite possible that both of those are true (I don't know, I'm not the expert, I merely know what I've seen), which is precisely why my 'wrong' comment was not back against those specific words.

There is evidence for what I'm (in perhaps layman's terms) saying, yes. Do I have that evidence to hand? No I don't. I don't even know if I can remember enough to successfully google for it. But none of that changes that what I am saying is true, as I have seen and read about it - a subject that I'm not particularly interested in, I'm merely dismayed by the rejection of evidence in favour of hunches.

It's out there. I'm guessing you won't bother to go find it just as you didn't last time I mentioned it.

[kaosmark2]

So Neil, you're (rightly) dismissing elements of psychology because of a lack of consistent and accurate evidence and the use of hunches, then proceeding to dismiss the rest and make absolute statements about brain chemistry, despite a lack of consistent and accurate evidence?

[eFestivals]

So Neil, you're (rightly) dismissing elements of psychology because of a lack of consistent and accurate evidence and the use of hunches, then proceeding to dismiss the rest and make absolute statements about brain chemistry, despite a lack of consistent and accurate evidence?

where have I made an absolute statement about brain chemistry?

As far as I can remember, all I've said around that is there's stuff to suggest the problems could be more the physical/chemical than they are the social/mental.

And I'm not even saying that the hunches should be abandoned, I'm saying that those with the hunches need to be willing to drop those hunches and go with evidence when there is evidence.

[kaosmark2]

where have I made an absolute statement about brain chemistry?

As far as I can remember, all I've said around that is there's stuff to suggest the problems could be more the physical/chemical than they are the social/mental.

And I'm not even saying that the hunches should be abandoned, I'm saying that those with the hunches need to be willing to drop those hunches and go with evidence when there is evidence.

[eFestivals]

Absolute statement.

that wasn't about what you said, "brain chemistry".

That's the only absolute statement I've been making, and it's the whole basis of all I've been saying here. It's something with (so far, at least) consistent and accurate evidence.

[kaosmark2]

that wasn't about what you said, "brain chemistry".

That's the only absolute statement I've been making, and it's the whole basis of all I've been saying here. It's something with (so far, at least) consistent and accurate evidence.

[eFestivals]

Have you got absolute evidence to dismiss that so absolutely?

Have I got it personally in my hands? No. See my words to worm above.

I've taken her "organically" to be something physical - so if I've got that wrong then I've spoken out of turn.

But that aside, yes, there is the evidence to dismiss what she's said absolutely.

edit: the bit about the chemistry might apply (I don't know either way), but it's a follow-on from a physical abnormality.

Edited April 19, 2012 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Have I got it personally in my hands? No. See my words to worm above.

I've taken her "organically" to be something physical - so if I've got that wrong then I've spoken out of turn.

But that aside, yes, there is the evidence to dismiss what she's said absolutely.

edit: the bit about the chemistry might apply (I don't know either way), but it's a follow-on from a physical abnormality.

[eFestivals]

Brain chemistry does get out of balance, and it does do it in response to external stimuli. The physical 'abnormality' isn't that abnormal, the structure of people's brains can leave them more predisposed towards certain mental/emotional states, such as depression, but I wouldn't use the term 'abnormality' myself. It's a sliding scale, like height.

The chemistry bit you give there and which feral gave might be true (as I say, I don't know), but I was commenting on all she'd said when i said 'wrong'.

'abnormality' might be the wrong technical word to be using, but there is something very specific and physical in the brain for someone to be able to suffer from schizophrenia; without that thing they will not suffer from it. There is no sliding scale.

[kaosmark2]

The chemistry bit you give there and which feral gave might be true (as I say, I don't know), but I was commenting on all she'd said when i said 'wrong'.

'abnormality' might be the wrong technical word to be using, but there is something very specific and physical in the brain for someone to be able to suffer from schizophrenia; without that thing they will not suffer from it. There is no sliding scale.

[eFestivals]

There's certainly a sliding scale for other 'mental disorders' though.

Is there something behind them in same way?

If current attitudes prevail the public at large never get to find out with the treatments they'll get.

[kaosmark2]

Is there something behind them in same way?

If current attitudes prevail the public at large never get to find out with the treatments they'll get.

[rachbon]

I'm not sure if depression can be caused by life not living up to our expectations, like people are suggesting in this thread (unless I've misunderstood?)

To me it is purely a medical condition, if you suffer from it then it doesn't matter what your expectations for life are or how you view things, you will still be depressed because you suffer from a condition which you have no control over.

The main reason I think like this is because I was only 4 when I was diagnosed with depression. At that age, I don't see how you can have any expectations or views on life, for me it was obviously just something I would suffer from no matter how my life turned out.

Someone (Katster?) gave an example of someone who might exercise regularly and not feel depressed, but then go through a divorce and become depressed. In situations like this, I believe that the person would always have had depression, but it has just taken a certain event in their life to trigger their illness.

[worm]

I'm not entirely sure if the "brain functioning" you're talking about is the same thing as the brain 'abnormality' I'm talking about.

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

A brain abnormality refers to a part of the brain that doesn't work at all or works incorrectly according to certain actions or mental activities. Such patterns can be identified and verified through CAT scans and the likes. I can assure you that there is no correlation between this and the symptoms of schizophrenia.

Then what are you saying?

As I've already stated, there are abnormal cognitive functions associated with schizophrenia, but there is no link whatsoever to brain abnormalies, such as legions or pathological processes. More to the original point, these abnormal cognitive functions are a symptom of schizophrenia and not a cause.

There is. Just because I can't put it in front of your nose doesn't mean it's not out there. I know with absolute certainty that it is.

Can I ask how old the version of things you're giving is?

[worm]

There is.

Edited April 19, 2012 by worm