The Order of Things......

[feral chile]

I get this 'difference' thing being necessary from a philosophical point of view, but a white swan is white swan whether there's a black one or not. You might not call it a white one, but that's all.

We know we're alive because we are, before we know about death

[worm]

I get this 'difference' thing being necessary from a philosophical point of view, but a white swan is white swan whether there's a black one or not. You might not call it a white one, but that's all.

We know we're alive because we are, before we know about death

[worm]

You've spent the last five years telling me and anyone else within range that if they don't have the same certainties as you and agree with you then they're thick.

[worm]

apart from maths, which is a deductive science

edit: This includes the field of mathematics that Quantum Theory is built on, which is a huge and elegant pure mathematical construct that holds completely true even if it was isolated from it's application. Much of it was actually developed as a discipline for its own sake, without care for physics and before quantum theory was even talked about. It just so happens that this field of mathematics can be applied and describes the quantum world with remarkable accuracy.

How does that fit into to all this stuff?

[rabid]

but whether our brains are percieving any difference or not, any thing is still what it is

[worm]

To extend Tony:

White and black only exist in our heads as differences in sensory data. We have no idea if they exist beyond sensation. We can only build up knowledge about colour and colour perception on the basis of what we have sensed. New sensations provide us with the task of rearranging our knowledge systems, which brings me back to my suspicion of knowledge systems.

[feral chile]

so we build up a database...

still doesn't change whatever there was in the frist place

you have doubts??

[llcoolphil]

Until a black swan came along you would never think of them as being white swans because swans are white.

[worm]

but so what? The original white swan hasn't changed in any way or form because a black one has come along. All that's happened we have something to compare it with... so now there's a white one and a black one...

Edited March 31, 2011 by worm

[worm]

So why do we think of tigers and zebras as striped despite the lack of alternatives

[feral chile]

So why do we think of tigers and zebras as striped despite the lack of alternatives

[rabid]

So why do we think of tigers and zebras as striped despite the lack of alternatives

[worm]

I'm always fascinated with molecules and solidity, they way we perceive objects as solid, when in fact they're 'not'.

[worm]

so we build up a database...

[eFestivals]

No Neil.

You're asking me to tell you what happens before consciousness. Nothing happens before consciousness. It's that simple.

No I'm not you thick twat.

I'm asking you what causes conciousness. You've said you don't know, so presumably you can follow thru on that properly and admit that you talk endless bollocks?

Or you can say that you do know, and say how.

(Tho the 'how' can only be an interaction between the three things I've stated. )

[eFestivals]

I'm suspicious of knowledge, yes.

but strangely, never your own. PMSL.

[worm]

I'm asking you what causes conciousness.

[worm]

but strangely, never your own. PMSL.

[eFestivals]

And that's not asking what comes before consciousness? A cause is what happens before Neil.

Consciousness is primary Neil. Everything else, including what comes before it, is completely unknown to us.

Conciousness is not tho, is it?

And because its not, we know what is needed to know of conciousness. And those three things are:-

1. the person who will have that conciousness.

2. senses to inform them of their conciousness. After all, without any of the interaction - experiences - that informs us of our conciousness there is just a void, nothing.

3. stimuli to trigger those senses.

It cannot be - either literally or logically - different to this.

Which of course makes the stimuli as real as the conciousness they inform us of. The stimuli are as real as ourselves. If we deny the reality of those stimuli then we are also denying our own conciousness and existence.

[miniand]

Two people walking through the woods, one is deaf and blind, the other hears and see's a tree fall, does the blind and deaf man not trip over when he walks into the tree he has no idea has just fallen or will he just pass through it

[eFestivals]

A tree falls over in a forest, but no one is there to hear if it makes a noise or not - so does it make a noise? Who cares.

A tree falls over in a forest, and someone is there to hear it. By hearing it a person is made solidly aware of their conciousness but are similarly made no less aware of the fact that a stimuli is necessary for them to have that conciousness.

Therefore the falling tree and its sound is no less real than conciousness itself.

[worm]

Conciousness is not tho, is it?

[feral chile]

Two people walking through the woods, one is deaf and blind, the other hears and see's a tree fall, does the blind and deaf man not trip over when he walks into the tree he has no idea has just fallen or will he just pass through it

[worm]

Two people walking through the woods, one is deaf and blind, the other hears and see's a tree fall, does the blind and deaf man not trip over when he walks into the tree he has no idea has just fallen or will he just pass through it

[eFestivals]

Regardless, the stimuli (sensation) is not in question.

Then anything sensed is absolutely real.

To deny them is to deny yourself. The physical world outside of a person's existence is proven no less than that person's existence itself.

So the only question left is to ask yourself if you exist. "I think therefore I am" - done and dusted.