Dale Farm

[eFestivals]

WOW

Just to say that travellers are not a race and to think they are just shows a strange level of understanding of these communities. Perhaps it's easy to think they are all the same but I'm afraid they are not. Still easy to throw the racist word around.

I'm using 'travellers' as a catch-all, because the words 'Gypsy' or 'Romany' are not strictly applicable to all travellers. However, a huge proportion of travellers are Gypsies, and they are very definitely a distinct race.

I'm not sure what if any of those involved at Dale Farm would categorise themselves as, which is why I've used the word 'traveller' instead of anything else.

But whatever it is, it all comes from the same persecution of the Romany race that has existed since time immemorial, that travellers need to be driven somewhere else, anywhere else, as long as it's not here.

So yes, the racist word is appropriately used, especially when the likes of Barry Oaf is spouting the sorts of mythical shite that he has done, that every traveller is scum that will eat your granny, when all that he's said is no less applicable in facts when applied to house-dwellers than it is travellers - tho in Barry's mind it's only travellers.

[eFestivals]

mythical shite

Yet many of us have first hand experiences of the people to draw upon...

but less experience of those things than you have of the same or similar things from those who live in houses.

(unless you've been spending all your time with travellers [which sounds somewhat unlikely ], and no time on any 'sink estates').

The point - for your overly numb brain - is that there's 'bad' people everywhere, not just within travellers. They're things to be dealt with as necessary, they're not things which belong to just one race or grouping, and not an excuse to 'outlaw' one group when the same 'outlawing' doesn't happen to all groups that have the same behaviour.

The Nal threw in that they're worthless to society because they avoid taxes, and should be 'outlawed' because of it. Yet you never hear the same thing said about mega-rich people (and plenty others downwards - including Barry Fish by his own previous admissions), for which the exact same justification could be used to drive them into the sea too.

Those differences in approach to two groups who are doing the same things gets to clearly show the racist attitudes that are driving those sorts of comments, even if the likes of Barry Oaf is too stupid to recognise it.

[fred quimby]

fuck knows how my missus would have got to work today without a motorway, for example.

[fred quimby]

I'm using 'travellers' as a catch-all, because the words 'Gypsy' or 'Romany' are not strictly applicable to all travellers. However, a huge proportion of travellers are Gypsies, and they are very definitely a distinct race.

[eFestivals]

Because only travelers build motorways?

no, because travellers do help build motorways. And help provide you with beer and cider, and the food on your plate, and anything else - everything else - you can think of.

They are no less work-shy than any other grouping, tho their ability to obtain the more normal paid work is limited by their lifestyle - AND the racist attitudes they encounter.

You say that they do pay the council, was that for the land or is this through council tax, I haven't read anywhere where this has been said so just wondering.

the land I know they bought off a private seller. That private seller says that this bit of "important green belt land" (the supposed reason why they won't give it planning permission) was concreted over with the council's approval and help long before it was sold.

They are settled people on that bit of land; they send their kids to the local school (103 kids from both parts of the site). The council knows who they are, and because it knows who they are they are in the position to collect council tax from them, and do (within the rules of council tax of course, no different to how it's applied to house dwellers).

As for Dale farm they are not trying to get rid of them all are they I thought it was only those without planning permission, in which case they may have a point. It's hard for a community to provide proper amenties for people if it is not planned.

I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to justify people ignoring planning rules, as long as it's possible within those rules to do what the law says those people should do (buy their own land, and get planning permission for it).

And that's where the problem lies. It's near-impossible for travellers to get the necessary planning permission - and even when they do (such as the other half of that encampment) it's normally land which would be considered unfit land for housing without a clean-up. It's pretty much making people live on rubbish dumps.

Now, if YOU were told that the only place you can live your life in the way that you know is on a rubbish dump, you'd be pretty pissed off with society as a result, and would be unlikely to cosy up to that society's rules which are fucking you over, eh?

They are people, with as much right to live their lives in the way they know as you are. Just because it's different to how you live your life doesn't make it wrong or unacceptable.

Gays I know live their lives differently to how I live my life, and how I want to live my life. Non-whites I know live their lives differently to how I live my life, and how I want to live my life. In neither case does this mean they should be driven out of society, and it's no different for travellers: society needs to accommodate all people within it, else it's not a society it's a fascist clique.

[fred quimby]

no, because travellers do help build motorways. And help provide you with beer and cider, and the food on your plate, and anything else - everything else - you can think of.

[eFestivals]

I hear what you are saying, it's just not really true as there are mainly Romany and Irish Gypsies in Britain which are seperate races (from my understanding). It's just throwing the racist word around to get reaction can cheapen it's meaning I feel.

There's no such thing as "Irish Gypsies". There is only "Gypsies". Gypsies (or Romanies) are a distinct race, and recognised as that in both UK and Euro law.

Nowadays lots of the (true) Gypsies/Romanies are mixed in with 'tinkers', 'Irish navvies', 'showmen', 'new age travellers' and whatever other names you might give for those who live a travelling lifestyle of some sort (or no-travelling such as with those at Dale Farm, as has been forced on many by the law). They've ended up in that mix (with many of them hugely disliking the others) as a simple consequence of how few places there are that they can stop.

Given that (as I've already said) the hostility towards travellers of all kinds comes as a result of the racism that has existed against Gypsies for centuries, then racism is rightly applied. It's racism against the lifestyle of a particular race, where that lifestyle has come to include others.

There's Home Office research along these lines - I know of it because my Professor ex happened to help research and write it.

(I just tried googling for it, but without success )

[The Nal]

no, because travellers do help build motorways. And help provide you with beer and cider, and the food on your plate, and anything else - everything else - you can think of.

They are no less work-shy than any other grouping, tho their ability to obtain the more normal paid work is limited by their lifestyle - AND the racist attitudes they encounter.

[eFestivals]

Wow. UK travellers are totally different to Irish travellers. Really. They do none of that here. Hence the confusion on my part.

I'm not trying to say that every traveller does those things - no different to every person living in a house. Some do, some don't.

But it's certainly the case that the UK would have no beer without travellers - the hops are picked (or at least were 20 years ago; maybe it's the Poles, etc, now) almost exclusively by travellers, apples for cider too, and just about every market garden at harvest time. The ability of travellers to do these things is of course related to how easily they can travel to the place of work and park up, which has got significantly more difficult in the last 20-ish years.

Here's some words from an expert I just came across on the BBC website related to travellers:-

"some of the examples of racism and prejudice she had seen were appalling and would not be tolerated if they were connected with other diverse groups".

And here's how accepting locals are (without even knowing what they're rejecting):-

"councillors are due to discuss plans to put a travellers site near the hamlet of xxxxxx. No plans have been submitted yet, but local campaigners are opposing such a move."

But there's nothing racist or nimby going on against travellers here, nothing at all.

[The Nal]

But there's nothing racist or nimby going on against travellers here, nothing at all.

[Chas]

Some great pics here for those who love the more New Age Traveller lifestyle http://www.travellerhomes.co.uk/

[eFestivals]

My point was about Irish travellers who seem a lot different to the UK travellers across the way. A traveller wouldn't be given a job in Ireland in construction, gardening or anything involving customer interaction. Not in a million years.

I'd say much the same about the UK in customer facing roles - tho the reason they wouldn't be given those jobs would be more to do with overt racism than much else.

After all, I wouldn't give myself a customer-facing role either because my 'skills' in that area aren't what employers would want - but you can be damned sure I'd get one 99%+ of the time ahead of any traveller.

If we were to replace the word "traveller" in this thread with the word 'black' or the word 'Muslim' or the word 'Jew' then those that are a bit muddled in their thinking might get to see what's really going on with this issue.

Edited September 20, 2011 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Some great pics here for those who love the more New Age Traveller lifestyle http://www.travellerhomes.co.uk/

lots of vehicles I've spent time within on that website.

I've already found Lin's DD (hello Ribs ), and if i dug around some more I'm sure I'd find one or more of my bruv's old vehicles (he's recently upgraded his travelling lifestyle to a millionaire's super-yacht - yours for £20k a day, or £12M for cash purchase )

[abdoujaparov]

If we were to replace the word "traveller" in this thread with the word 'black' or the word 'Muslim' or the word 'Jew' then those that are a bit muddled in their thinking might get to see what's really going on with this issue.

[Ed209]

^^^ this

nothing else to say, really,..it works especially well if you substitute the word "Jew" for "traveller" and then imagine yourself in a brown shirt in 1930s Germany....

[fred quimby]

There's no such thing as "Irish Gypsies". There is only "Gypsies". Gypsies (or Romanies) are a distinct race, and recognised as that in both UK and Euro law.

Nowadays lots of the (true) Gypsies/Romanies are mixed in with 'tinkers', 'Irish navvies', 'showmen', 'new age travellers' and whatever other names you might give for those who live a travelling lifestyle of some sort (or no-travelling such as with those at Dale Farm, as has been forced on many by the law). They've ended up in that mix (with many of them hugely disliking the others) as a simple consequence of how few places there are that they can stop.

Given that (as I've already said) the hostility towards travellers of all kinds comes as a result of the racism that has existed against Gypsies for centuries, then racism is rightly applied. It's racism against the lifestyle of a particular race, where that lifestyle has come to include others.

There's Home Office research along these lines - I know of it because my Professor ex happened to help research and write it.

(I just tried googling for it, but without success )

[abdoujaparov]

I tried as you suggested, the thread didn't make any sense at all.

Edited September 20, 2011 by abdoujaparov

[The Nal]

There are people on here saying that travellers contribute nothing to society,

[eFestivals]

True in a most cases.

In Ireland anyway.

are the 3,000 Romanies in Ireland the only people who do fuck all in Ireland?

And do all of those 3,000 Romanies do as you say, or just some of them?

True in a lot of cases.

yeah, cos travellers are the only people who shit in Ireland, eh?

I've seen far more 'normal' people shit in the hedge than I have travellers (mostly at festivals, as it happens).

In fact, I've never ever seen a traveller shit in the hedge. Without exception, every traveller I've known has *ALWAYS* taken a spade so that they can dig a hole to shit in and then cover it.

Unlike 'normal' people who are used to systems to take their shit away - but have no idea what to do when there is no such system - travellers know not to shit in their own bed.

Here's betting that what you saw either wasn't a traveller, or if it was there was a good reason for doing what they did - such as an illness, or just being caught short. It can happen to anyone.

[eFestivals]

Still not sure of the racist angle we are using here though is useful. But still I see where you are coming from.

It's not a word I wanted to use in this thread, and tried hard to avoid.

But when the comments got as stupid as they did from some, it became unavoidable. It only got reeled out when what was being posted was clearly driven by racism. Whether that racism was deliberately racist or just from stupidity and prejudice only the poster of those words can say, but I can't see it as anything other than racism to label all travellers as degenerate scum as some did.

[Ed209]

then that's either because you're an idiot or have a knowledge of history which is slightly worse than a hedgehog

[abdoujaparov]

there's also people on here brandishing the race card, calling people idiots and who are unfairly likening people who are trying to have a reasonable discussion on this issue to the nazis. All it does is cloud over the real issues and prevent a grown up discussion on the issues that both travellers and their neighbours are facing.

[Ed209]

quite the opposite - it helps the debate to see people for what they really are

[eFestivals]

there's also people on here brandishing the race card, calling people idiots and who are unfairly likening people who are trying to have a reasonable discussion on this issue to the nazis. All it does is cloud over the real issues and prevent a grown up discussion on the issues that both travellers and their neighbours are facing.

Oh c'mon - reasonable discussion becomes impossible with those who wish to put across that all travellers are degenerate scum, as some have done in this thread.

I'm certainly not trying to avoid any issues, but the issues that have been raised by some have been raised in a totally unreasonable way, and anyway, those issues are not exclusive to travellers, and no-one sensible would suggest the sorts of remedies for 'normal' people over those issues as they're doing for these travellers.

The travellers at Dale Farm have done EXACTLY what the govt has suggested that they do - buy their own land to live on.

The planning permission part only comes into things after they're owners of that land (after all, no one gets planning permission for land they don't own, all that does is ensure they'd pay much more).

Given that it's land next door to an existing legal site, and that it was already concreted land when they bought it, then there can be said to be a more than reasonable expectation that they'd get the necessary planning permission. And that's what they've tried to do.

And it's not like they've got the same sorts of options as you, of moving on somewhere else once their preferred option is no longer available. Wherever they move onto, they'll be creating the same problem or a bigger problem, simply because society at large doesn't want them to be anywhere except somewhere else - a ridiculous idea; they have to be somewhere.

We as a society accept that what might be regarded as the worst of society (the 'chavs'*, if you like) still have a right to their existence within society. The same attitudes don't exist towards travellers, which society tries to push outside of society.

(*sadly amusingly, that's a Gypsy word. More anti-Gypsy racism )

[eFestivals]

I know plenty about the struggle of the jewish people in 1930s germany thanks, and the comparisons you draw are, in my opinion, tenuous.

What, you've read that stuff and not realised....

1. that they were persecuted because of their cultural/lifestyle differences from 'normal' society?

2. that along with persecuting the Jews, Hitler & co also persecuted the Gypsies to the same extent?

The persecution here and now might not be to the same extent, but it's still persecution, and still driven by the cultural differences. It's not hugely different, only the extent of the persecution is hugely different.