thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[abdoujaparov]

I place some level of hope and trust into technology to bridge the gap...

But I don't think that capitalism will unravel as natural resources expire... I think the competition for what resources exist will only grow... More wars.. More death... More suffering... Its unavoidable unless technology gives us an answer...

[eFestivals]

No, of course I dont think that any government is looking at anything other than perpetuating more of the same. The change wont come because governments want it to - the change will come because capitalism will unravel as natural resources expire

I don't disagree that a 'change' is coming, but I'm far less hopeful about what that change will be than you appear to be.

My take is that in a world of diminishing resources that certain countries will attempt to grab those resources. I reckon we've already seen the first instances of this with the likes of Iraq and Libya.

[abdoujaparov]

You are forgetting what you agreed to a couple of posts back...

The only possible fix is a global one... A fix that can't possibly become a reality...

Invest in technology... Invest in arms... Invest in finding new energy sources (shale gas)... Invest into pacts with other countries (so important we become united within Europe)... We will be at war against these other powers sooner or later... and our own survival is on the line...

Anything else is fruitless...

[abdoujaparov]

I don't disagree that a 'change' is coming, but I'm far less hopeful about what that change will be than you appear to be.

My take is that in a world of diminishing resources that certain countries will attempt to grab those resources. I reckon we've already seen the first instances of this with the likes of Iraq and Libya.

[eFestivals]

I'm not sure that I'm particularly optimistic, but I do think it is possible for the chaneg to be positive. I'd much rather hope for that than take the mindlessly nihilistic approach of Mr Fish

well yes, of course. If everyone adopted his approach we're all definitely fucked.

What amuses/depresses me most about his view is that, despite how much he mentions her here, he'd be ensuring his own daughter's death thru starvation/war/pestilence or similar. He wants to work from the view that those with money will be fine and fuck the rest, but that's not how things will pan out. In a world without enough food, money ceases to have value.

[kaosmark2]

well it is negative - it's based on the assumption that humans must always be competitive and pursue their own fulfilment at the expense of others. Those are negative behaviours which I do not think are remotely inevitable

Do all animals want to "prettify" their homes? I suspect that that may be a sweeping generalisation which is unsupported by empirical fact. But even if it was true, I'm not sure how it's relevant. Humans may have an aesthetic sense which is not shared by other animals, but it is not inevitable (as you seem to be suggesting) that they should exercise that aesthetic sense at the expense of other people.

As to the concept of survival of the fittest, I'm not sure how helpful it is to apply a term from Darwinian evolutionary theory to social relations between humans. It's a generally misunderstood term in any event - Darwin did not mean the survival of the biggest, strongest or most animal most willing to kill its own. He meant that evolution favoured the animal most suited and best adapted to its environment. To say, therefore, that "survival of the fittest" must mean that humans must always seek advantage over other humans is fundamentally to misunderstand what the idea behind the phrase means.

But in any case, there is a fundamental difference between man and animals: we are able to make choices and are not driven solely by instinct

[eFestivals]

Pretty much the entire world has implemented this approach since the dawn of time...

yup. It's an approach that can mostly work in the circumstances where there's still resources enough to go around. It's not an approach that can work when there's a fight for resources.

There's already an historical precedent for this: WW2 - I'm not talking about WW2 in Europe, but the war in the east. The driver for Japan's expansionism was their own lack of certain resources (primarily oil), and the wider conflict was caused because the USA didn't want them to have them. There's even a strong historical view that the USA contrived the whole scenario to make Japan do the work and have the USA to reap the rewards.

And of course the war in Europe wasn't hugely dissimilar, as Germany's expansion eastwards included needing the resources as well as primarily wanting the land, particularly when their warmongering resulted in the loss of access to resources from elsewhere.

So we can already see how your take on things leads. The smart minds have long recognised this, while the dullards keep on keeping on and will only wake up when the bullets and worse start flying.

[eFestivals]

I would love there to be a nice wooly global agreement on how to sustain everyone.. Would back that all day long...

But the reality is... My daughter may well be facing some very bleak times... Admitting that isn't wishing that on her... I would happily see changes implemented... but this requires global agreements... Ones which will never come..

Your approach makes it so. Can't you see that?

All the while there's too many people - like you, as you've admitted - that refuse to consider accepting the changes (loss of lifestyle, etc) that are necessary for peaceful co-existence on this planet of ours then it becomes impossible for any agreements to reach the levels necessary for mostly-peace to be sustained.

If you think the billion of two in the western world will be able to hold back the rest at the point of a gun forever then all you're doing is ensuring the guns will eventually be pointed at you and yours instead.

[abdoujaparov]

....and Capitalism survived and grew... As I said would happen above...

War... Followed by the same old Capitalism... War... Followed by the same old Capitalism...

It will continue to repeat... The numbers dead, buried and suffering will no doubt grow... But without world wide agreement on change how can it be any other way...

Fact is I am right... If you like it or not...

[abdoujaparov]

How very vague

[eFestivals]

....and Capitalism survived and grew... As I said would happen above...

War... Followed by the same old Capitalism... War... Followed by the same old Capitalism...

It will continue to repeat... The numbers dead, buried and suffering will no doubt grow... But without world wide agreement on change how can it be any other way...

Fact is I am right... If you like it or not...

Nope, you're not. You've missed the most basic pre-requisite.

Capitalism only works when there's increasing output. The 'economic crisis' we're currently going thru is the result of decreasing output, and while there'll no doubt be another few decades of smoke and mirrors designed to hide the failure of capitalism to sustain itself in changed circumstances, sooner of later the world will wake up to the fact of its failure.

After all, capitalism promises more jam tomorrow - that's precisely what 'investments' and 'debts' of all sorts do, they make a promise that for a sum of money now, more will be returned tomorrow. In a world of shrinking output because the resources are used already, that becomes an impossibility.

[abdoujaparov]

How very vague

[eFestivals]

I am ready to sign up to some sort of world vision that sees us all happily living together...

Until that day, when everyone is ready to sign, I will be getting on with the world as it stands...

So, in your version of the future.....

The day "when everyone is ready to sign" never comes about, because YOU are expecting better of others than you're prepared to go to yourself. If everyone is waiting on everyone else (cos of course you're not the only one with that attitude) then that situation can never come about.

And if it did come about, you'd do the same things as Euro-skeptics say about Europe, that we're the only country sticking to the rules - when the truth is that we abuse the rules no less than other nations, tho in a different manner.

Your attitude guarantees failure.

[eFestivals]

I have restructured your post to remove the bits where you put words in my mouth to suit your own fucked up dogma...

I just cut thru your weasely words to get to the truth of things.

What you're saying is no different to the sort of guff that gets spoken about climate change. "We'll cut our emissions, but only if everyone else does first", or "there's no point us doing anything, we're just 2% of emissions, but just look how much damage China is doing".

Until such time as those with your attitude are prepared to take proper responsibility for your own actions, things get nowhere.

Your responsibilities are not defined by the doings of others, they are defined by you. Either you accept your responsibilities, or you don't. And your words get to show that you don't.

[kaosmark2]

I have restructured your post to remove the bits where you put words in my mouth to suit your own fucked up dogma...

[abdoujaparov]

Missiles and wars can bring access to more Jam...

Technology can give you more jam...

Lots of routes to travel....

Maybe there will be a huge contraction at some point... but Capitalism will start again... It is in our nature...

[abdoujaparov]

Oh come on lets face it... You agreed it requires a global solution... and you agree a global solution would never be possible... So lets just move on to something worth talking about...

[kaosmark2]

Not quite... I don't think agreeing to a way forward on a global scale quite equates to that... Its more of everyone agreeing to change and then changing... Nothing more, nothing less...

I edited out the bit your insert words into my mouth...

[5co77ie]

I don't think you will find all the money markets of the world are all in decline - China, India, Russia, and some South American economies are not flagging these will be more interested in reforming the global financial system to something more akin to their own rather than a completely new value system - their value systems aren't new, and we all know the pitfalls involved in them.

[eFestivals]

I don't see any point in changing unless there is a global agreement... That much is true...

And so despite your stated self-belief in being a good person with religious faith, the only faith you really have is in yourself and fuck the rest of them - including your daughter.

You are responsible for your own choices. The choice you have made is the selfish choice, and so not the responsible choice.

You could choose to make the responsible choice, to change things for the better. Instead you don't give a shit (or at least, not enough of one to do anything about it), and will continue to happily carry on as you are and thru that choice cause others to suffer.

No doubt you'll say that's me putting words in your mouth again. But if that's what you think, then all that reply would really show is that you're intellectually incapable of joining up quite simple dots of cause and effect into coherent thought.

[abdoujaparov]

One less holiday... One less TV... Isn't going to make any difference...

[eFestivals]

I've been in Spain for the last week interesting that they're seeing China, Japan, and Argentina, as potential saviours of the European economy along with the Catholic Church with the Vatican trying to improve their image by donating to the Italian economy - I don't know how much of that has entered the news here.

The China bit certainly made the news here - as well as them laughing in the EU's representative's face at the suggestion.

-----

And I have to laugh at the Church of England getting in a differ about the protest at St Pauls. They keep on claiming that shutting St Pauls stops them doing their duty of helping the worse-off, and yet they've got billions squirrelled away in the very businesses that cause people to be worse off in the first place.

[abdoujaparov]

And people doing pointless little acts don't change anything either...

[abdoujaparov]

The whole UK could do what you have done and everyone would still be fucked in the end... We are still going to have issues going forward...

Because....

1, you haven't gone far enough...

2, the world hasn't gone far enough...

There is no way India and the like are going to slow down there growth and consumption just because little old UK is feeling the pinch...

If we don't have world agreement on change then conflict is going to happen. And you giving up a tv or two isn't going to make ANY difference...

[abdoujaparov]

Pointless acts...

I would rather put political pressure on our government to:

1. Protect our national interest by doing all the things I said above

2. Push for world agreements via the UN

Unfortunately I don't fancy the chances of the 2nd...