abdoujaparov Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Easy stuff to say while that very interest has given you everything you have and has made you what you are... Edited October 31, 2011 by abdoujaparov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I would rather put political pressure on our government to:Protect our national interest by doing all the things I said above When people say "protect our national interests", it normally means giving up nothing and trying to squeeze something extra out of everyone else. Is that what you're meaning? If so, it's the antithesis of everything you've said about being prepared to do something when everyone else is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) There is no way India and the like are going to slow down their growth and consumption just because little old UK is feeling the pinch... Firstly, it's absolutely naff all about anything to do with "feeling the pinch". If that's as only as far as your brain has stretched so far in this discussion, the issues are waaaaaaay beyond you. And secondly, why should India slow down its growth? It's miles behind us still, and it's got the perfect moral right to have nothing less than we have ourselves. So until it's got to hot and cold running water and reliable electric in every property in its land, it's not got close to us. It'll take it another 20+ years at least I'd reckon. The question is: just how far are the likes of India going to go with their development and consumption? If they get remotely close to what we have, then humanity is without doubt doomed. There's just no way that that same level of consumption we have could be sustained for every country and the current population. the western world has the opportunity to set the level of their development by what the western world does from here. If we don't have world agreement on change then conflict is going to happen. And you giving up a tv or two isn't going to make ANY difference... What's certain is that doing nothing in the way you think of as right is certainly going to change nothing. Doing something at least has the chance of having an effect. Edited October 31, 2011 by eFestivals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katster Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 But whatever you give up you can always give up more, can't you? So who decides what is too much? I have much less than a lot of people, but I also have much more than a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Gwertigan Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 But whatever you give up you can always give up more, can't you? So who decides what is too much? I have much less than a lot of people, but I also have much more than a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katster Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 As I see it people get confused between "want" and "need". But they are not mutually exclusive to each other either, you can persuade yourself you need something. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'd be interested to know how much 'greed' affected people if every need was met comfortably (ie. not just they've got food that minute, but have a steady supply of food). I don't doubt that there will always be some who try to gain an unfair share, the question is how society is set up to stop them succeeding. You wouldn't necessarily need a state, in an idealised anarchist society, they would become a social pariah and unable to take advantage of anything where they're reliant on others, and would probably, after realising their dependence, return and accept the equality and sharing principles. (Note, I'm not saying it'd work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feral chile Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Evolution encourages social behaviour. One of the key evolutionary aspects that has led to humans being the dominant species over other types of monkey is our more advanced vocal chords - language - the ability to communicate quickly. Humanity has been able to defend itself by working together, it has been able to hunt larger animals by working together, it has been able to construct larger and more permanent areas of shelter from the wilderness by working together. Selfishness to the 'screw other humans over' degree is a social construct, not an evolutionary one. We're programmed to seek companionship and friendship, to form long-term relationships (not just sexual). Positive and constructive social behaviour is far more a product of evolution than hiring an assassin to off your business partner to get his share of a company. Edited October 31, 2011 by feral chile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I will sacrifice once everyone is prepared to do the same... for a common good... Not before... Is that clear ? Yes you did... And how do I contribute to a solution ? There is nothing I can do to help... I have no influence on any of the world powers... Buying one less TV is not going to make any difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 ooh peer pressure, that's a good one. Only works if there's total agreement though - if you've got an underclass exploiting the system you're screwed. because they'll gain social approval from each other. And turn against the dominant group even further. And social control would only work if you knew who the offenders were. no matter how alternative the society, there'll always be a counter-movement. And there'll always be people who disagree about entitlement. The trouble with 'the good of the group' is who decides that? What if you're good at construction so the group decides that's what you should do, for the good of the group? But you just want to write music? What about people who don't really have any talents or abilities, who would normally be unemployed? How do you motivate them? I can't see how you can have freedom and equality existing in anything other than an uneasy coexistence, as they do at present in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 humanity has been able to target other groups and enslave them, by working together. language has enabled the concept of 'the other' to evolve. Unity is a concept that only makes sense if there's an 'other' that is different - another species, another group, etc. We might first have banded together against other animals, by recognising our difference from them, but we soon refined that, didn't we? i don't see how you can classify ganging up on animals as natural, but ganging up on other people as a social construct. it's exactly the same process, with a different target group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Gwertigan Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 You're right in that, but my point is that people aren't INDIVIDUALLY selfish, or even just in regards to their family, as people often get wrong. Co-operation and understanding of mutual benefit are inherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katster Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 And and and if we give up all this beautiful and let's be honest at times quite useful stuff (washing machines, fridges?) then what was the point in all those wonderful people way back when devoting their whole lives to try and make life better and easier for people? If I give up my television set, should Doris give up her £5,000 mobility scooter?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 And I'd argue the modern capitalist society encourages individual selfishness, as well as tribalism. I'd say that's beyond doubt. I've seen it happen, things change in that way myself. Thatcher promoted the idea that the individual was everything, and that individual wants can never be wrong. She also manipulated social structures so that people had to fully buy into the idea if they wished 'to get on'. If a person didn't follow their individual desires then they were shafting themselves - the scenario around the right to buy council houses was the perfect example of that (and is probably why Dave Moron has revived the idea against a background of social comings-together against the worst effects of that individualism; he's trying to use individualism against the growing social protests). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Until we have proper agreements then it would be stupid to act any differently... We would be the worlds mugs... so instead you approve of the 'us' mugging others, little different to some scumbag crim mugging an old grannie in the street. The only difference between the two things is that one is done remotely, and via that the fools like you want to believe that it's nothing to do with them. The truth is that your attitude is deliberately and consciously putting people to death, no different to Hitler - it's merely wrapped up in a different but just as bad ideology. After all, someone dying as the result of a person's deliberate actions is still death, whether it's done in the gas chamber or via capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 That was my point! No it wasn't. Your point was that India will carry on doing what it wants to do irregardless of what we in the UK might choose to do. My point is that we can set an example, and by doing so we will be able to influence what others might do. You like to bang on about how you've got what you have via you taking responsibility for your own life. How about taking responsibility for how your daughter's life will turn out too? Being prepared to have her fall in the shit as she will if you carry on as you are is absolving yourself of your responsibilities towards her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I find that suggestion totally barking... Then you must also find the idea that you're able to set a good example to your daughter and by doing so lead her in a good direction is barking too. And the facts get to show that that's really what you think. You are deciding for your daughter that she's going to have a shit life with your full approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 what can we do ? Nothing remotely effective has been suggested yet. We are little pawns in all this... Yep, we are little pawns in all this. But deciding to stay as a pawn - or in your case, a prawn - is your own choice. There is power 'out there', that we are able to take for ourselves if we wish. We don't have to absolve ourselves of all responsibility for the world as you are deliberately choosing to do. Sitting around doing nothing and giving the current situation your approval by doing so is certainly ineffective. Meanwhile, the actions of those people currently camped on the steps of St Pauls stands a chance of bringing about an effective change to banking regulation. The current govt view is that it should remain unregulated and by doing so risk again all that's just happened (so you're choosing to make your daughter pay massive taxes thru-out her life while the bankers walk off with her cash). Whether they'll succeed is another thing, but they're trying. It's more effective than doing nothing, that much is without doubt true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 No Neil... Me working... paying my mortgage... Paying my taxes.... putting food on the table... and putting a roof over my kids head... Has nothing to do with Hitler at all. Thats all I do in this world. I have no power. And neither do you.... Hitler made choices. Those choices resulted in people dying as a direct result of his choices, and with his full approval thru those choices. You can make choices. The choices you've made results in people dying as a direct result of your choices, and with your full approval thru those choices. Yeah, there's no similarities. As for power, you choose to have some or not. By blinding going along with things as they are you are deciding to absolve yourself of the power that's available to you and so hand it to someone else. Fuck me, a simple mind like yours reaches simple-minded conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 and what are you doing Neil ? You already dismissed my suggestions you do something other than preach to nodding dogs on here but you laughed it off... What Am I doing? I'm pushing for a re-ordering of society, against my personal & individual interests. The opposite to you (as you've made very clear). I'm pushing for cultural equality against my personal & individual interests. The opposite to you (as you've made very clear). I'm pushing for tax changes against my personal & individual interests. The opposite to you (as you've made very clear). I'm pushing for changes to happen irregardless of what other countries might do, against my personal & individual interests. The opposite to you (as you've made very clear). Those things can only happen with the support of individuals - like me, but not like you (as you've made very clear). (Those are not the only things that I'm doing. There's practical supporting things too) I can use the power that I have, or I can choose not to - like you, as you've made very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 LMAO... You think me teaching my child is the same of us lecturing India... You are so extreme its laughable... Your child learns by the example she's set. Care to show me any individual that isn't? Yes, in India too. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I am almost certain the choices I make are not vastly different than yours... PMSL. I don't choose to fuck over everyone else until such time as everyone else stops trying to fuck me over. You really are ridiculous. You don't get any of this at all, it's clearly waaaay beyond your comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Your just preaching to nodding dogs on here Neil... I suggested you get politically involved but you laughed it off... I am politically involved you small minded twat. Absolving all responsibility to others as you do is absolute opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred quimby Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 The truth is that your attitude is deliberately and consciously putting people to death, no different to Hitler - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred quimby Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 PMSL. I don't choose to fuck over everyone else until such time as everyone else stops trying to fuck me over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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