thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[fred quimby]

The £400M loss on the sale of Northern Rock to Virgin Money has been widely reported.

[fred quimby]

Would be interested in seeing who else were bidding for it. Why Labour put in a 2013 clause I don't understand.

[lost]

I believe branson offered 1.5 billion for the whole bank (including the bad bit) in 2007 but labour decided to nationalize instead..

[eFestivals]

Would be interested in seeing who else were bidding for it. Why Labour put in a 2013 clause I don't understand.

Under pressure from the EU, I believe.

Because NR had become a nationalised bank (in a completely different way to the part-ownership the taxpayer has in Lloyds & RBS) it meant that any deposit in that bank was 100% safe in the event of the bank's failure.

This meant that NR was in a privileged position in the banking marketplace, able to offer its depositors a guarantee that other banks couldn't. As a result, NR started to get many more deposits and of course at the expense of the other banks - who of course complained about the unfair competition they had from NR.

In theory, the EU should have demanded that that situation was removed immediately, but due to the situation all-round with the banks there wasn't a hope in hell of that happening, and so a compromise was reached whereby the govt would dispose of the bank by a certain date.

Within the fair competition ideas that the EU is meant to champion, along with the reality of the economic situation, that seems to me to be a more than reasonable compromise.

The unfortunate side of things is that NR has ended up in the hands of a convicted thief, and a tax avoider. It is a situation that Gideon will come to regret hugely (tho perhaps not for the tax avoidance part because he's full of approval for that when it's his mates that benefit ).

[eFestivals]

I believe branson offered 1.5 billion for the whole bank (including the bad bit) in 2007 but labour decided to nationalize instead..

That not selling was the bargain of the century.

If Labour had sold to Branson back then Branson would have stolen all the cash and then lumped the £21bn (and more cos of what he would have stolen) of debts back onto the taxpayer.

The sale that Gideon made is far better value for the taxpayer - but only because I guarantee that within 5 years at most that Branson will have caused the bank to fail again because he'll have nicked the cash (tho perhaps via underhand means so it doesn't come back on him. 'Service charges' to personally owned companies is his normal scam), and so taking the bank back into govt ownership will be cheaper when that happens.

[sifi]

Capitalism is NOT dead. The shop run by the fok in the Camp by St Pauls always seems to be doing brisk business when I stroll past.

[Purple Monkey]

http://youtu.be/lFDwdRXCg3I Edited November 28, 2011 by Purple Monkey

[eFestivals]

an article that's very worth reading, about why the USA's occupy movement is being violently evicted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

[eFestivals]

why do you think it's crap then? Don't you believe it?

I'd say it's because he thinks he knows what it says rather than actually knows and understands what it says.

After all, those who do well out of the current system very often can't see what's wrong with it, and even if they can they don't think it should change - because they do well out of the current system. Their ability and desire to understand is totally framed within their personal and already-satisfied self interest.

[kaosmark2]

an article that's very worth reading, about why the USA's occupy movement is being violently evicted.

http://www.guardian....rackdown-occupy

[eFestivals]

I already stated the basis for my opinion....

yep - you've said that you have a presumption that you disagree with it, a presumption based on not having seen it.

Of course, that's the surefire way to get the right opinion about anything, by not actually knowing what you're disagreeing with.

[kaosmark2]

[Purple Monkey]

Previous form and a quick click through.... Enough for me...

Edited November 28, 2011 by Purple Monkey

[fred quimby]

Occupy London statement -

Initial statement of the Corporations Working Group, as passed by the OccupyLSX General Assembly on 25th November

“Of the world’s 100 largest economic entities in 2000, 51 were corporations and 49 were countries. [3]

With its relentless pursuit of profit at all cost, the present corporate system fits the definition of a psychopath, driving the rapid destruction of our society and the natural environment. [4]

This is done only to benefit a small minority and not the needs of the 99 per cent. The way corporations and governments are intertwined fundamentally undermines democracy. Corporations are rarely transparent or accountable to the people. This corporate system is broken and we call on the people to reclaim their power and bring about a radical and immediate change.

We propose these following points as first steps towards this:

Globally, corporations deprive the public purse of hundreds of billions of pounds each year, leaving insufficient funds to provide people with fair living standards. We must abolish tax havens and complex tax avoidance schemes, and ensure corporations pay tax that accurately reflects their real profits.

Corporate lobbying subverts our democracy. Last year corporations spent £2 billion influencing the British government. We believe exploitative corporate lobbying has no place in a democratic society. Legislation to ensure full and public transparency of all corporate lobbying activities must be put in place. This should be overseen by a credible and independent body, directly accountable to the people.

The existing system of corporate sanctions allows executives and board members to avoid individual responsibility for the consequences of their actions and inactions. Those directly involved in the decision-making process must be held personally liable for their role in the misdeeds of their corporations and duly charged for all criminal behaviour.

A welcome development at Occupy London is that many people working within these corporations have communicated support for our concerns. We encourage anyone to come forward and offer their opinions, or any relevant information, either openly or confidentially, to add to this discussion.

We recognise that corporate employees may feel like they do not have the power alone to create change, but by welcoming them into talks with Occupy London and working together, we can create a socially responsible and sustainable economic system.”

Notes

[1] http://occupylsx.org/?page_id=575

[2] http://occupylsx.org/?p=839

[3] Sales: Fortune, July 31, 2000. GDP: World Bank, World Development Report 2000

[4] http://www.thecorpor....cfm?page_id=47, http://www.commondre...s04/0218-01.htm

[lost]

any fans of Max Keiser on Russia Today here?

Last weeks show on the uk housing market was spot on:

[5co77ie]

I thought Inside Job, Charles Ferguson's Storyville film was great on BBC2 last night, I defy anyone to watch it and still love bankers. It made Cameron's stance on not having a 'Robin Hood' tax look all the more like he is in their pockets.

Talking of Cameron I find it interesting he's talking of vetoing tomorrow - doesn't he realise that the 'passerelle' clause in the Lisbon Treaty means he can't and as it enables the European Council to override the need for an intergovernmental convention. Article 126 of the treaty allows a change of protocol without having to go to a convention involving national parliaments. So why all the bluster, is it to hide the fact that yesterday he was defending his banking buddies, and hopes we won't remember after watching the programme.

[lost]

The EU is equally in the pockets of the banksters, they've just deposed a democratically elected president in Italy and replaced him with an ex-Goldman Sachs guy Mario Monti, this is when Goldman Sachs have a massive position in Italian debt, Monti announces unprecedented austerity measures, Italian yields drop and the bank makes a killing.. nice work if you can get it.

Edited December 8, 2011 by lost

[eFestivals]

Congrats to Dave Moron for ... being a moron.

So he thinks it's in Britain's national interest to protect the banks does he? They raise about £50Bn a year for the treasury ... which gets to mean that in about 20 years we'll break even on the cost of the banks to Britain ... IF they've not fucked us over again in that 20 years.

What he is protecting is not the banks, but the right of his cronies to get rich via the banks.

As for Gideon's saying that he's taxing the banks and raising more money for the treasury as a result, that's a lie. Even when removing the one-off banks tax that Labour made from the equation, the banks now pay less in tax than they did under Labour, making the banks even richer at the expense of taxpayers.

And of course Moron using that veto is not going to come without a cost, because sooner or later those 17 countries will want to exercise more control around their treaty, which will come with tariffs for trade outside of that block - and so will cost the British banks far more business than anything proposed right now.

Great Britain has ensured it is now little England.

[5co77ie]

Are we allowed to still call ourselves Europeans? Unbelievable we're now frozen out of European financial decisions - well that will be good for the country. All this to protect his banking buddies and keep the Conservative Euro-sceptics on board. Us and Hungary - what a duo! We've been shafted by our own Prime Minister!

[russycarps]

It's not just his "banking buddies" that have been protected. I have too. I would have been out of a job if the finanical transaction tax was implemented. .

I dont work for a bank.

Your view is rather narrow minded.

[eFestivals]

It's not just his "banking buddies" that have been protected. I have too. I would have been out of a job if the finanical transaction tax was implemented. .

I dont work for a bank.

Your view is rather narrow minded.

Some jobs come, some jobs go.

Without you saying what it is you exactly do I can't say whether your fate is sealed anyway, but it's certainly the case that Dave Moron doings thru the night will cost this country more than it will save.

[eFestivals]

Like it or not the banking sector in this country is HUGE. Its a massive drain on our economy

corrected for you.

[russycarps]

Some jobs come, some jobs go.

Without you saying what it is you exactly do I can't say whether your fate is sealed anyway, but it's certainly the case that Dave Moron doings thru the night will cost this country more than it will save.

[eFestivals]

Well my only point is it is not just unscrupulous banks that would suffer from this tobin tax.

It makes me cringe everytime people go off on one about "bankers" when they dont really understand what they are talking about.

what, you mean when people bang on about how much they make this country, when the provable facts gets to show beyond all doubt that they actually cost this country money and don't make it?

A tobin tax reduces speculation for speculation's sake. It does nothing to reduce real investment.

[russycarps]

what, you mean when people bang on about how much they make this country, when the provable facts gets to show beyond all doubt that they actually cost this country money and don't make it?

A tobin tax reduces speculation for speculation's sake. It does nothing to reduce real investment.