thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[lost]

When and where will the first proper uprising in Europe occur do we think? I dont think the italians have got the stomach for it. Greece? They are feisty enough I guess. I wonder how many more elected governments will be forced from power. Interesting times ahead.

[eFestivals]

When and where will the first proper uprising in Europe occur do we think? I dont think the italians have got the stomach for it. Greece? They are feisty enough I guess. I wonder how many more elected governments will be forced from power. Interesting times ahead.

I think you'll find that the Eurozone is going to be mighty fine as the biggest fiscal economy in the world. The big one gets to set the financial agenda for everyone else.

Within ten years the Euro will replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency, and then it'll be able to take the financial piss out of everyone else in just the way as the USA has done for the last 60 years, and the UK did before that. How do you think not-particularly productive economies get to be so rich?

When the little Englanders wake up to that they'll be kicking themselves, because more than sovereignty they want the sovereigns. Euroscepticism has naff all to do with political power and everything to do with monetary power.

We could have been part of it. We could have cleaned up. Instead we'll be the cleaners - literally. We as people will be hawking ourselves to any country that will have us, begging for their shittest jobs in just the same way we've so enjoyed exploiting the people of Caribbean and more recently the Poles and Lithuanians.

The UK might manage a mini-boom from what's happened today, which is likely to coincide with the next election. Beyond that the eurozone will soar away while the UK withers and dies alone.

[5co77ie]

When and where will the first proper uprising in Europe occur do we think? I dont think the italians have got the stomach for it. Greece? They are feisty enough I guess. I wonder how many more elected governments will be forced from power. Interesting times ahead.

[russycarps]

I think you'll find that the Eurozone is going to be mighty fine as the biggest fiscal economy in the world. The big one gets to set the financial agenda for everyone else.

Within ten years the Euro will replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency, and then it'll be able to take the financial piss out of everyone else in just the way as the USA has done for the last 60 years, and the UK did before that. How do you think not-particularly productive economies get to be so rich?

When the little Englanders wake up to that they'll be kicking themselves, because more than sovereignty they want the sovereigns. Euroscepticism has naff all to do with political power and everything to do with monetary power.

We could have been part of it. We could have cleaned up. Instead we'll be the cleaners - literally. We as people will be hawking ourselves to any country that will have us, begging for their shittest jobs in just the same way we've so enjoyed exploiting the people of Caribbean and more recently the Poles and Lithuanians.

The UK might manage a mini-boom from what's happened today, which is likely to coincide with the next election. Beyond that the eurozone will soar away while the UK withers and dies alone.

[eFestivals]

How and why in 10 years will the Euro replace the dollar?? it makes no sense at all.

how and why did the dollar replace sterling? It makes no sense at all.

But it happened. So why did it happen?

Because it was the world's largest economy, and able to convince others that it was a safe bet for their money.

It's no longer a safe bet for anyone's money, it's only clinging on via confusion. Within a decade it'll be having a debt crisis significantly bigger than the current EZ one as the money flows to safer places. And guess where that's going to be?

The uk AND Europe are in decline.

Absolutely - as was the USA (comparitively) when it took over from the UK, and the USA still is (but much more so than the EZ).

There's nothing that the UK can do to stop that decline, and there's nothing that the EZ can do to stop that decline. But what the EZ can do - and will - is exploit the situation it finds itself in, to manage that decline and enrich itself via the financial systems while doing so.

Ultimately we all know where the money is going to go, but until people feel safe for China to be the world's bank its being held back - so somewhere else is needed. Guess where?

[kaosmark2]

Is Europe really going to be a true economic powerhouse? Up until Dave screwed us over this morning, UK was a bigger economy than France, and it'll take a while for that to change. Asian countries are growing in terms of economic power, while Europe has been in decline. I don't disagree that we've been utterly screwed by Dave for the sake of short-term votes and his banker mates, but the Eurozone soaring away and the Euro replacing the dollar as the reserve currency? Laughable.

Edit: Since seeing the last post and reasoning, I'm revising that. The Eurozone won't soar away from the rest of the world economically though.

Edited December 9, 2011 by kaosmark2

[eFestivals]

Euro rules the world ? Laughable

Really? So what do you think gives the basis for a particular currency to be the world's reserve?

[eFestivals]

Is Europe really going to be a true economic powerhouse? Up until Dave screwed us over this morning, UK was a bigger economy than France, and it'll take a while for that to change. Asian countries are growing in terms of economic power, while Europe has been in decline. I don't disagree that we've been utterly screwed by Dave for the sake of short-term votes and his banker mates, but the Eurozone soaring away and the Euro replacing the dollar as the reserve currency? Laughable.

Yep, France is smaller - but that gives it the space to grow. There's still areas to be exploited there, while we've nothing left here.

Meanwhile, there's Germany with it's huge and real surpluses, something we don't have and don't have a hope in hell of getting back.

Asian countries are growing in strength in a comparative basis, but they also hold a fear factor that's absent from Europe but soon to infect the USA.

There's no other realistic choice for where the money can flow to with long-term safety except the Eurozone, especially when it's new fiscal status is factored in alongside it being the world's largest economy.

[russycarps]

how and why did the dollar replace sterling? It makes no sense at all.

But it happened. So why did it happen?

Because it was the world's largest economy, and able to convince others that it was a safe bet for their money.

It's no longer a safe bet for anyone's money, it's only clinging on via confusion. Within a decade it'll be having a debt crisis significantly bigger than the current EZ one as the money flows to safer places. And guess where that's going to be?

Absolutely - as was the USA (comparitively) when it took over from the UK, and the USA still is (but much more so than the EZ).

There's nothing that the UK can do to stop that decline, and there's nothing that the EZ can do to stop that decline. But what the EZ can do - and will - is exploit the situation it finds itself in, to manage that decline and enrich itself via the financial systems while doing so.

Ultimately we all know where the money is going to go, but until people feel safe for China to be the world's bank its being held back - so somewhere else is needed. Guess where?

[eFestivals]

Edit: Since seeing the last post and reasoning, I'm revising that. The Eurozone won't soar away from the rest of the world economically though.

I've not said it'll soar away from the rest of the world, just that it will from the UK.

The Eurozone will grow quite strongly (tho it'll take a few years), but as a part of the world economy it'll be losing market share.

[kaosmark2]

Yep, France is smaller - but that gives it the space to grow. There's still areas to be exploited there, while we've nothing left here.

Meanwhile, there's Germany with it's huge and real surpluses, something we don't have and don't have a hope in hell of getting back.

Asian countries are growing in strength in a comparative basis, but they also hold a fear factor that's absent from Europe but soon to infect the USA.

There's no other realistic choice for where the money can flow to with long-term safety except the Eurozone, especially when it's new fiscal status is factored in alongside it being the world's largest economy.

[kaosmark2]

I've not said it'll soar away from the rest of the world, just that it will from the UK.

The Eurozone will grow quite strongly (tho it'll take a few years), but as a part of the world economy it'll be losing market share.

[russycarps]

I have spoken to some people in our german office today about this and some of them are viewing us "going it alone" with envy. They are of the belief that europe needs germany far more than germany needs europe. And they hate the french more than we do!

[zahidf]

This is an interesting article: basically, right to say no to the treaty, but for the wrong reasons...

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/12/european-treaty-cameron-stop

[Ed209]

big swing to the right in Spain, a lot of people saying they were better off under Franco

[eFestivals]

Well the dollar replacing sterling did make a lot more sense than the euro replacing the dollar would now I think.

when the pound bombed, a new home had to be found for money. What's going to happen when the dollar bombs as it will within 5 years?

The USA's deficit makes the likes of Greece and Italy look like sure-bets. Even if the USA manages to haul back its deficit it still has the loans to service, and they alone are enough to cripple what remains of the USA's productive (not service) economy.

It's held on as the reserve only because it's been able to exploit its position as the world's reserve. It's attractiveness as that is falling daily as the USA's share of world trade drops each day.

But meh, it's a brand new economic situation we are in now and noone knows what will happen for sure. I guess your outcome is just as likely as the one I believe will happen (or anyone elses theory for that matter).

yep, it's a theory - but one based on historical precedents.

One thing I think everyone can agree on is that it wont be Britain ruling the world any time soon! Oh and also david cameron is an utter fool who's legacy will be one of abject failure.

yup - but just as with Thatcher it's going to take along slice of time to come about.

That being said, there is very little doubt in my mind that the tories will win the next election outright.

Mine too. A country gets the govt it deserves and with an electorate as stupid as our it only pans out one way.

[kaosmark2]

Mine too. A country gets the govt it deserves and with an electorate as stupid as our it only pans out one way.

[eFestivals]

I have spoken to some people in our german office today about this and some of them are viewing us "going it alone" with envy.

as the biggest and strongest economy, they would do.

They're probably setting themselves up to be the ones taking the traditional British line to future EU/EZ negotiations because of it.

But just as the UK likes to ignore the inconvenient parts, those Germans are doing that part too. Within the EZ they've been playing the same role as the effective 'reserve currency' much as the USA does currently for the world, and their strong economic position is one that's artificially created via that.

[russycarps]

The thing about all this that annoys me most is that Sarkozy will be feted as some kind of political mastermind now.

When in reality he is just an odious turd of a man. I hate him.

I cant help thinking the germans are pushing ahead with their idealistic dream of a unified europe whereas france are just doing what is best for france, and letting germany fund it.

Germany anf France It is an alliance I cant see working forever, which I one reason I am sceptical about your vision for europe.

[kaosmark2]

When in reality he is just an odious turd of a man. I hate him.

[eFestivals]

I hate Cameron but the REAL Trouble causer in europe is that little French c**t...

I think Michael Portillo got it right last night on This Week... Instead of killing the cancer... Europe is killing the patient to save the cancer... The cancer being the euro...

Yeah, a federalised financial set-up can never work, just look at the dollar.

[lost]

I still don't think this is over when the actual terms of the treaty are negotiated in March, Will the Irish give away that juicy corporation tax rate for example?

[5co77ie]

This is rather worrying, whilst America's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey says that they are unlikely to have another major deployment like Iraq ever again, their biggest threat now is....

Europe!

Around 24 minutes in if you don't to watch it all

http://www.c-span.or.../10737426147-1/

Edited December 9, 2011 by 5co77ie

[fred quimby]

This is rather worrying, whilst America's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey says that they are unlikely to have another major deployment like Iraq ever again, their biggest threat now is....

Europe!

Around 24 minutes in if you don't to watch it all

http://www.c-span.or.../10737426147-1/

Edited December 9, 2011 by fred quimby

[fred quimby]

The thing about all this that annoys me most is that Sarkozy will be feted as some kind of political mastermind now.

When in reality he is just an odious turd of a man. I hate him.