Ed209 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 unfortunately, I don't think a reboot is the answer, if you ran the great human experiment all over again then would things really be any better? Its still just the same lines of code. We need a complete rewrite, and then a reboot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaosmark2 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I have had this discussion so many times with so many people. I spend a lot of my time listening and reading up on the likes of Naom Chomsky, Jaques Fresco and Peter Joseph. The conclusion I have come to, as have many of those who have done any real research into the subject, is that it's game over. Generally people who don't get it are generally people with poor intelligence, They often fail to grasp logical arguments and resort to essentially sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'lalalala'. They are a result of conditioning; the finest, shining examples of intellectual oppression. The more trappings of the system they have let into their lives, the more golden handcuffs and various other illusions they have delusionally associated with importance - cars, houses etc, the more ignorant (and irrational) that person is likely to be and the more likely they will react aggressively and irrationally to any challenge to their beliefs. Their very identity is wrapped up in the current system that any challenge is either met with ignorance, violence or a passive aggressive mixture of both. Money has become their God and they will defend it regardless of whether they know anything about the subject or not - this is why labels such as Terrorist, Conspiracy Nut, Communist, Marxist, Fascist exist. They're go to words often used by people who dint really understand what they mean - they just use them to discredit any arguement with a default, irrational attack. The west has fallen into a terrible binary rut of thought process; good vs evil, republican vs democrat, capitalism vs communism, democracy vs dictatorship. The irony is these binary battles are irrelevant and completely outdated: this shit has got to go. Most of these words under the current system resemble Orwellian doublespeak. Democracy for instance, under the global monetary system, is a sick joke. Communism has never existed - any form of communism so far under the current system has been nothing more than a dictatorship. When people throw out the argument 'We have tried communism and it didn't work' I have to laugh - nobody has ever really tried Communism on a large scale, anyone that thinks the likes of the Soviets were in any way communist has simply bought the lie we were meant to. Generally, the people I have found to be far more accepting of new ways of thinking about say, a resource based economy, they are generally creative people. The more stunted a persons creativity - the more of a head-against-a-brick-wall situation is likely to arise. I still can't believe there are people who think this is all fine. Just carry on. Shut up. Everything's absolutely fine. 1.6 billion people on this planet live in poverty but hey, fuck em right? 'look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, this just has to be real...' The human species needs a reboot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) unfortunately, I don't think a reboot is the answer, if you ran the great human experiment all over again then would things really be any better? Its still just the same lines of code. We need a complete rewrite, and then a reboot. Edited September 27, 2011 by Purple Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed209 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Fix the culture, fix the people. This idea that we are all instinctively c**ts looking to fuck each other over at every turn strikes me as even more indoctrinated capitalist propaganda. We are a result of our environment. We live in a toxic environment, and our systems turn us against each other, reinforce the negative, destructive tendencies in us. There have been pockets of human activity discovered in parts of the world completely removed from the monetary system who display 'uncharacteristic altruism'. Oh look, a pocket of human civilisation untouched by greed, marketing, wealth or possessions and check out the whole not-fucking-each-other-over thing they have going on. Hrm, this can't possibly be right. Pff, what do they know about happiness? They don't even have McDonalds. When I hear people say 'it's human nature' as an excuse, justification or reasoning for how we are behaving I have to point out that the view is more likely a belief perpetuated by the current model for reasons which should be obvious by now. What we are doing is completely against our nature, and the planet. Again, Bill Hicks hit the nail on the head when he said the next stage of human evolution won't be physical, but an evolution of ideas if we are to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I agree with a lot of what you've said. I don't think we're hardwired to be c**ts to one another. This is my theory: I believe that within reason we're all capable of the same behaviour patterns, some selfish, some alturistic. Unfortunately it all goes back to the very early civilizations, they laid the ground work for all that has happened. If they started successful societies based on nice alturistic ideals, then this would have perpetuated through the generations. Unfortunately for us they started with monetry based systems, in all probability without any forefort of how it pan out, each successive generation is born into an ever spiralling problem whereby this systems requires the selfish side of us to come out to be able to survive. It gets worse and worse until we end up in the shit storm we're in today, Obviously some have the intellegence to see this system is wrong, and want to start doing something better, and while their ideas and actions are noble, all they end up doing is pissing in the wind against the tide of thousands of years of human society and indocterine. I think its just been a case that one bad idea, has led to another, and another, and we had noway of seeing where it was heading until we arrived at the present. Hey, it could be the case that if the experiment ran again, then we would startup based on the alturistic half of our personality, have non-monetary self-sufficient civilisations, and thousands of years later, in the year 2011 we'd all end up in utopia. Something inside me says it wouldn't though. I think that original seed which has led to all of this would have always been planted somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdoujaparov Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) Me spending less will change nothing... It won't improve the lives of people on low incomes... Sorry but you haven't come up with anything at all... Edited September 28, 2011 by abdoujaparov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Cut in my living standards ? There are people out there who earn what I will earn in a life time in a month!!! or less... I don't accept, for one second, that real fairness comes from me giving up what I have... The real fairness would be to redistrbute the disgusting levels or renumeration the people a million miles away from me have to improve the lives of people on lower incomes to at least get to the level where I find myself at the moment... I thought for the scraps from the big boys tables as much as anyone does... Once we have some rebalancing of top to bottom then I would be happy to start looking at what I have... I have a bit more than I really need at the moment... but not a great deal more to live what I would call a comfortable life. I would imagine that to make this a more fair county it would be about raising the living standards of people on lower incomes, not lowering mine to make theres look better on paper... And so what I said gets proven. Real fairness comes from people getting the same reward for the same efforts. Given that most people make a similar amount of effort towards their work, then real fairness would have everyone earning something around the average wage - something you earn hugely more than from what you've posted in the past, and so yes, a cut in your living standards. To pre-empt it, I'm sure you'll come back and say "but I got trained, and so my work is worth more". Yes it is - but nothing like the 'more' that you get when your work 'success' requires a shelf stacker in Tesco's just as much as it required you to get that training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) You are such a dullard. You bore me to tears at times. To reiterate, I didn't say that the model has to be changed to satisfy the sensibilities of morons. You suggested that because you've no idea what I'm talking about, but wish to sound as if you do. True, you didn't explicitly say the model had to be changed to satisfy the sensibilities of morons - but that's in essence what you said. Nothing you've said references the applicability of the model, so if that doesn't scream moron to you, you've no hope. As for the last bit .... pleeeeaaase. If you think you're able to say anything out of my range on a subject you show gross ignorance over on a constant basis, you confirm it again. Edited September 28, 2011 by eFestivals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Besides supporting tax credits, child benefit, NHS, free education, national minimum wage etc etc etc... You haven't really a clue about me or my feelings... but you have made your mind up so moving on...1 what you're failing to grasp is that these things are given out as crumbs, as diversions away from reforming the economic system into something sustainable, and fair. These things are not all there should be, and all that you have (based on your previous income claims) is more than you should have. What are the other options ? that what you are able to have should be what everyone is also able to achieve. The way the system exists now, that's not possible. It's rigged in your favour, and despite your claims of wanting fairness, you've made clear that you'd fight tooth and nail to ensure it remains rigged in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Me spending less will change nothing... It won't improve the lives of people on low incomes... Sorry but you haven't come up with anything at all... perhaps he hasn't, but people have. Have you bought into those things, given them your support? Or have you only bought into a small part of things, the little bits that can be done without those bits impacting too heavily back on you? You've made clear you wouldn't accept any solution which impacted too heavily on you. So the problem is not one member of the public not giving you a solution, it's you not being prepared to accept the solutions - and you merely use words like those above to try and deflect that fact away from you. The solution is out there. But the solution only becomes possible with its acceptance. The attitude you express ensures it will never come about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 So in your utopia do people work ? And for what reward ? A reward that isn't taking the piss. Will you produce more than twice as much work effort as a shelf stacker over your lifetime? No you won't. So why do you think that you deserve more than twice the income over your lifetime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Still no one has really shown what the other path is.. People make products... Clothes, Food, Property, Cars, Mobile Phones... They sell them and people buy them employing people in the process, allowing them to trade what they earn... The people who sell more make more money... ITs been that way since the dawn of time... How can it work differently ? As you seem to be having a major imagination blockage, here's a how can..... One person works for one hour, and gets one hour's pay. Everyone else that works for one hour gets the same one hour's pay. After all, the work effort made is identical by everyone, and no one is able to do their job without all of the environment around it to sustain it - which requires everyone to be doing their different jobs to create that whole environment. That's certainly a way that things can work differently, but I'm not saying it's the perfect way - tho there is a perfect way out there somewhere, and that perfect way will certainly be nearer to what I've laid out there than how we operate things currently. So ... would you go along with something like that? Of course not, because you'd be materially poorer, and that's a solution that's unacceptable to you, no matter how much fairer it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 It is not just about "effort"... Its about stress and responsibility of the role. Its about the skill set required to do the job and how much "effort" you put in to get those skills. How many shelf stackers are up at 10pm trying to finish that report... How many shelf stackers have to travel to a conference and stay over night and miss out time with their family ? Its not just about effort... I agree, there's more than simply effort - but the difference is hugely smaller than current pay rates reflect. Tho I'll point out that shelf stackers are up every night - way later than 10pm - stacking shelves, while you're doing fuck all. As for the conferences you do to, you chose to abandon your family for those. None of them are necessary. But you'll pretend they're something different to what they are, because keeping up the pretence that you believe yourself better than others is more important to you than reaching a fair conclusion for all. Answer me this... Who would take on the stress of management without the reward ? like I do, you mean? That's that line of argument taken straight out. You also fail the grasp that I didn't make the cost of a nice semi detached house £150,000 resulting in a £1,000 a month mortgage. I would love to live in a nice house without having to pay out as much and hence earn as much. Yet others pay out that much without earning as much as you while putting in the same or more hours, having as much or more stress, and losing out on nights with their families. But your needs come first, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 All work is NOT equal... This leads right into my next post... All effort is equal. Why do you belief that one hour of your effort to your work is worth more than one hour of equal effort to their work from another person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) So in your utopia do people work ? And for what reward ? Edited September 28, 2011 by Purple Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) So who gets out of bed to empty the bins for the love of it ? Do we all live in the same sized house, wearing the same clothes, eating the same food... Like worker ants... I can hear the USSR anthem playing over the hills... I am worker! Edited September 28, 2011 by Purple Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 If you pay Person A £1 Person B £5 Person C £10 its little different than paying Person A £100 Person B £500 Person C £1000 Person A still get the shit house, Person B gets the reasonably nice house and Person C gets the nice house. Why do you think one person's one hour of work effort is worth only 1/10th of your own? What you're not grasping is this: It's not the fact of their being pay differentials that's the problem and unfair, it's the size of those differentials. No person's work effort is really worth ten times as much as another's. Twice, perhaps. Its almost a total waste of time talking to you when you come out with this stuff. My wife is in work 8am to 4pm... We then look after the baby till 7pm... and then laptops are back open... Dosen't take a genius to see the point I was making... the point you were making was no point at all. You said a shelf stacker isn't working at 10pm, so I pointed out that very many are on a daily basis, but that you're not. And given that you stated your belief that being away from your family for work on very few occasions for conferences is a strong reason why you believe your work worth more than others, why aren't you saying that all evening workers with families - who are away from their families every day - should be paid more than you? You're simply twisting every factor you can find into a factor that supports your belief in being better than others, while not allowing the same argument to be used for why you're not. It necessary if we want a nice house with good schools. So what you're saying is that all reasoning is over-ridden by your personal wants. No shit sherlock, I hadn't worked that one out already!!! If you want to make a case for those people to get a better deal I am fine with that.. unless their better deal comes at a cost to you, you mean. If you want to compare a shelf stacker to a company director as being equal in the stress and responsibility of work they do, you are away with the fairies.... is that stress and responsibility worth the difference in the pay you each get? Is it fuck. I know what those levels of stress and responsibility are don't forget, and ultimately they're simply something you self generate to justify you being unfair. Does a shelf stacker have less stress and responsibility? They have much more responsibility from one angle, because people's very lives depend on their work (else people can't eat) - so that blows the your responsibilities to be paying a few employees away ... and not only that, if you can't pay them, it's not you who suffers, is it? So your responsibility is actually very little as the consequences are not yours. Stress? Running a business is less stressful than being an employee - at least you know (or should, at least) the exact position you have for yourself, while an employee can be shafted at any moment but won't know when that moment is coming. But hey, I've got it all wrong, and I couldn't possibility know how much stress you carry by your huge stress and responsibilities that no one else has. If you want to know what real stress and responsibilities feel like then try spending ten years in shit jobs being laid off continually so a c**t like you can get their new Jag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 As for having no incentive - most inventors and famous scientists did their best work just because they could and wanted to, they didn't/don't give a fuck about monetary reward. ^ this. never was a truer word said. (its also true that less than !% of those have and unique skills - the vast majority simply do something who's time has come) Exactly the same applies with those people who choose to run businesses - they do so because they can, not because it brings them riches. So they don't need rewarding with riches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) So we get to the point where all the shit jobs are done by robots... I didn't think you was going to that level... I can't see us getting to that point... I think you have been watching too much Star Trek. Edited September 28, 2011 by Purple Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 If you had a choice... and be honest... To earn £20,000 for stacking shelfs or being a company director which one would you do ? Anyone who chooses being a company director really have little idea about what they would be taking on. I would take the shelf stacking job quite happily. bullshit. Or you're as weakminded as your posts so often make you appear. People do things because it suits them to do that thing, not for the reward. My missus has just turned down a plum job because it's not the job she wants to do. But if it was, then what she'd be taking on would be to her liking. Reward doesn't come into it. Stress and responsibility doesn't come into it. Only what she wants to do as her job comes into it. Care to show me any individual who turned down a promotion because the extra pay wasn't high enough? (OK, you'd find some - but a tiny tiny number, far too few to effect productivity levels or 'success' levels, because there is always another just-as-good candidate [tho the numbskulls lie about this, liking to believe themselves unique and special]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worm Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Did you not read about the level of mechanisation that would take those menial jobs out of the equation? The only reason they exist as human jobs is because of the current monetary system i.e. it's more cost effective to get humans to do it than to build the infrastructure that would take all of these shitty jobs out of the equation. Eventually bin men WILL be replaced under this system, like many other redundant roles, it will create despondency and unrest as it contributes to more unemployment and a more divided, hostile society. What this system does is it compromises infrastructures with a heavy hitting combo of competition and planned obsolescence due to a heavy emphasis on short-term thinking leading to huge inefficiency. Nothing under this system is built to last. This isn't an economy we're living in by the way. The definition of economy is to conserve resources and use them at the peak of efficiency. What we have, especially in the west, is the exact opposite of an economy. You haven't actually read anything I have posted have you? I am going to end up repeating myself aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 So who gets out of bed to empty the bins for the love of it ? see, this is where your prejudices based on the bullshit you like to believe (because if you push it enough it gets to enrich you - which is where everything has gone wrong) comes into things, and sense goes out of the window. You've never met a bin man, have you? The same percentage of them like doing their job as anyone else in any other job. Do we all live in the same sized house, wearing the same clothes, eating the same food... Like worker ants... I can hear the USSR anthem playing over the hills... I am worker! do you have some right by birth or by making no extra effort with your work compared to others to have more than others? Well hello there Prince Michael, Your Highness, I hadn't realised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 How many management positions have you held ? What is your line of work ? I've held management positions for about 20 years, in 7 different companies (2 of which I've personally run), and with waaaaay more responsibility than you have in your piddly little company (like my piddly little one now). I have management experience prior to that 20 years too (there's a break in the middle for a return to college). I've already told you that none of what you say applies for any of those management positions, but you'll keep on with the same self-justifying bullshit, because your selfish wants are far stronger than your false claims of wanting a fair world. You only want a "fair world" as long as you have a priveliged position within it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worm Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) You've never met a bin man, have you? The same percentage of them like doing their job as anyone else in any other job. Edited September 28, 2011 by worm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Monkey Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Yeah Star Trek sounds lovely... Bring it on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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