EU withdrawal referendum

[kaosmark2]

While it's almost certain not to go through between Labour, Lib Dems, and the Tory hierarchy, what damage could this do to the Conservative party?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15382019

[eFestivals]

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Normally Europe-hating Dave Moron will be forced to admit that we need Europe in the bad times and that we'd be fucked without it ... and even the dimmest brain might start to realise it's not the only-bad thing that it's often portrayed as by that same Dave Moron.

Yeah, I know, I'm hoping for too much.

[kaosmark2]

Well he's got no other excuse for, given his anti-EU stance, to push this vote through. What has he got? The cost of the referendum when he and his party continually talk about how much Britain's paying to the EU? Hopefully the media will press that confession out of him.

[kaosmark2]

The problem with a referendum is that large elements of the media and tory party want a withdrawal for ideological reasons, but realise that we can't afford it. However, they've whipped up a large anti-EU/Europe sentiment, which would encourage a lot of people to vote for a withdrawal, which could destroy the country's economy.

Tbh, while it's the ultimate form of democracy, if we're going to have a representative government to make decisions, I'd rather they did that than endless referendums. The only thing that should be voted on is things that determine how government works (eg. voting system changes).

[eFestivals]

I think it would be useful for the people to decide if they want to be part of Europe or not.

they did do, in 1974.

And while that was long time ago, it's not like we vote on all the thousands of other treaties that get made. Shall we also have a vote on the WW1 peace treaty too?

This half in half out mentailty we operate in the uk isnt helpful at times.

The "we want out" brigade say a referendum would be democratic, while forgetting that their ignoral of the result of the previous referendum is far more undemocratic.

[lost]

[Kowalski]

Never a good thing when the public are denied their voice.

[kaosmark2]

What? Nick Clegg having a headline vote-winning policy that he's turning his back on now he's in government?

[Uncle Liam]

I'd love to know what people's obsession with Europe is. Go and ask the average person how the EU effects their lives and I bet they wouldnt be able to tell you. You'll just get a load of xenophobic garbage.

I say lets have the the referendum, which will inevitably see the No side win, pull out, and lets have the UK stop getting in the way, bitching and moaning and whining and thinking thats its 1812, and let the rest of Europe get on with it.

Me? I'll be on the first train to Germany. One way please.

[kaosmark2]

I'd love to know what people's obsession with Europe is. Go and ask the average person how the EU effects their lives and I bet they wouldnt be able to tell you. You'll just get a load of xenophobic garbage.

I say lets have the the referendum, which will inevitably see the No side win, pull out, and lets have the UK stop getting in the way, bitching and moaning and whining and thinking thats its 1812, and let the rest of Europe get on with it.

Me? I'll be on the first train to Germany. One way please.

[Kowalski]

See, Germany do most things right, but they've got a lack of good beer, cheese and music. Not to mention the sense of humour.

[5co77ie]

Surely this 3 line whip is actually about trying to save Europe's financial position by not having a lack of confidence in it proclaimed from Parliament. It's very bad timing...

although it looks like Europe may collapse anyway in the next 48 hours:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8782663/Debt-crisis-live.html

[kaosmark2]

He has a point to an extent...

While Germany certainly has some fantastic beers if you know where to look... The average pub in German cities has suffered as much as UK pubs in having to stock mass produced garbage...

This said, if you get away from these pubs, you are in for a right treat as Germany as some fantastic beer on offer. I actually think the UK microbreweries offer more than the Germany ones though.

[5co77ie]

Actually it looks like the vote on Monday could result in some interesting political upheaval here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-rebels-set-to-quit-government-in-row-over-europe-referendum-2373803.html

David Cameron is facing the first political resignations from his Government as an increasing number of Tory MPs are threatening to defy the whips and vote to hold a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.

[5co77ie]

Would the EuroSkeptics really go this far? i guess it's why many of them signed up to the Tory party in the first place, and they can see no chance of a referendum within the next 12 months or the party moving back to the right in this parliamentary term. To have a referendum now would be devastating to the economy.

The eurozone is already on its knnes, even if Germany and France do bail out the Greco-Latin bloc - not certain, or if the Eurozone fractures with Germany, France, and Benelux bailing, the fall out from Britain proposing to jump the European ship would likely undermine any potesntial confidence in European banks and finance houses further and sign an economic death warrant.

Whilst those on the right might see this as their best opportunity to hasten the collapse of the Eurozone (which may happen anyway) and Europe a a whole the outcome would cripple the UK's largest trading partners and bring our British economy down with it.

I'm guessing their thinking is if they don't attack now then they won't have a chance to later when the Govenrment will be too tied in to economic bandages back out.

If they do force their hand (which I don't think they can now there's a 3 line whip perhaps the threats of resignation are an attempt to bring this down to a single whip), or if the Eurzone collapses next week - the ashes of the EU would need a new draft of the Lisbon Treaty anyway, which would potentially also force a new negotiation of terms on how active we would be within it - which is the third option of the proposed referendum - which I suspect would have the majority vote in any UK referendum - which would make the need for a referendum redundant.

I'm pissed that Milliband brought in the Labour line as he's saved the Government from some grief, I'm beginning to wonder if he wants to challenge the Tories right now?

[kaosmark2]

The fallout will be fascinating, I'm hoping everyone sticks to their guns and there's a large scale rebellion.

I don't think Miliband wants to challenge the Tories quite yet, there's still a sense of blame towards the Labour party, albeit a diminishing one, and he hasn't exactly won public confidence. Still, by-elections would cause interesting upheaval.

[5co77ie]

more rebellion speak:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/7330928/eustice-if-the-government-wont-back-my-amendment-ill-vote-for-the-eu-referendum-motion.thtml

[kaosmark2]

more rebellion speak:

http://www.spectator...um-motion.thtml

[lost]

front page on german finanical times apparently..

http://www.zerohedge...change-rate-195

Edited October 21, 2011 by lost

[kaosmark2]

front page on german finanical times apparently..

http://www.zerohedge...change-rate-195

[Binky]

so lets all continue to be ostriches and pretend the eu is a democracy after http://euobserver.com/9/26493 bollocks oh and on a personal level due to the failure of the soviet bloc and the opening up of the east and the twats in the eu and thier fancy ideas of a new empire that saw my job and thousands of others moved to cheaper climes where the operators wages went from £8 /hr to less than £1.80 hr and despite there being an agreement that if you pay tax on your wages in one country then you don,t have to pay tax in another eu country only applying to the uk then the sooner britain ditches mainland europe the better

oh and on the referendum they don,t need one cos the answer will be yes get us the hell out of dodge and i bet there would be a bigger turnout than the general election

Edited October 22, 2011 by Binky

[Binky]

Are you Nigel Farage in disguise

[eFestivals]

lol no i,m not just someone who has come to see the steaming pile of bullsh1t that the eu is run by a pile of egotistic morons who are just feathering their own nests and building empires .

and that's different to the politicians in Westminster how exactly?

At least via the EU the more extreme Westminster ideas aren't possible, and we all have a better life because of it. The diversity of views helps keep the overall view more sane than it would otherwise be.

it was never going to work not in a million years the founding principle of a common market was a good idea it should have just stayed that way

what, the founding principle of the common market which recognised that you only have a common market if you have common working practices too?

my multi national company shut my factory in wales and moved the work to hungary .

that's the workings of a common market for you. If you're too expensive - and you clearly are, so the work moved - then the work should go where it's most efficient for that work to be.

You're making the mistake of believing that the UK is capable of making better laws than the EU. This country was on its knees when we entered the EU, precisely because this country wasn't capable of making better laws.

That's not me saying the EU is perfect, I could give you a list that's probably as long as your own. But the general principle of common working practices to create a fair and even platform for trade is one that can only be thought of as awful by people who believe that their own country is somehow inherently better than all others.

[kaosmark2]

Shot down as expected. Large rebellion though, reports of 82 Tory votes for, and 15 abstained. 97 total rebels, pretty major.

Not sure Ed Miliband has a place to comment on the fractions and arguments though, if the 19 Labour rebels figure is right.

Anyone heard any reports of any resignations yet?

Edited October 24, 2011 by kaosmark2

[kaosmark2]

Reports this morning saying 'at least 2 resignations'.

Apparently 48 of the Tory rebels were new MPs. Big stance there considering that could screw them for promotion under Cameron.

The whip system is ridiculous. But then, supposedly there's more rebellion now than ever (I might try and find the link later).