a working class hero is something to be...?

[Kizzie]

Whatever it is, I don't think it's dictated solely by income.

[Wooderson]

Behaviour has a bearing aswell.

[TheGayTent]

My 2 person household has an income of circa 100k.

Both of us very definitely working class.

[russycarps]

My 2 person household has an income of circa 100k.

Both of us very definitely working class.

[greenfairy43]

I thought the 'discussion' between Frank Skinner & the panellists was more North/South than class based.

Since when does saying "barth" or "bath" depend on your class? Or are all Northerners working class as they seemed to imply

?

[eFestivals]

I thought the 'discussion' between Frank Skinner & the panellists was more North/South than class based.

Since when does saying "barth" or "bath" depend on your class? Or are all Northerners working class as they seemed to imply

?

it's the case that some of the 'posh' folk of northern towns don't have those northern accents - so from that angle they nailed it.

[eFestivals]

Trying to think about this from an adjusted modern prospective...

Working class : manual / semi skilled worker / blue collar... Secondary / college education.... Below average family income...

Middle class : Skilled / white collar / Management... university educated... Average to high income...

Upper class : inherited wealth... inherited status... You have to be born into or marry into this... You can't achieve it..

That's my view... Still comes out quite traditional

yep, it comes out traditional - with over 60% of the population being working class if those ideas are applied.

Which is of course very different to what people like to believe of themselves, which was the starting point of this thread.

[sifi]

I'm still sticking with those who own the means of production as being middle class, I know this has been diluted by private pension funds, but if it's good enough for Marx, it's good enough for me.

For the record, I am working class. Just because I work in an office and am University educated and can conjugate the verb to be in Latin, and for a brief period of time lived in a large farmhouse outside of New Delhi which had servants doesn't make it any less so.

[lost]

was it ed Byrne who said your working class if you spend your first decent pay cheque on a massive telly? think that's me

[sifi]

But I don't own any means of production. If I was born a hundred years ago, I'd be working the land or down a pit of a fisherman or something.

Anyhow, good news. Got me a proper permanent job local to my home (five minutes drive away), starting in the new year which means I no longer have to work like a slave to the grind for AIG. </off topic>

[russycarps]

I'd say theres an argument that if you own your own house/land then you cant possibly be considered working class.

but that would make all those horrible poor people who bought their council house under the right to buy scheme middle class.

And that just doesnt bear thinking about

[sifi]

No, but traditionally it was something that someone of the middle class could afford to do, but those in working classes couldn't.

In fact, I think the present administration's aim is to go back to that arrangement.

[russycarps]

how does going to University have any effect on what class you are anymore?

[eFestivals]

Are you operating off the idea that only so many people could ever be classed as middle class ?

If not, then surely the availability of university to more people as achieved its aim of creating social mobility...

but it's not creating social mobility. Social mobility has decreased in the time frame that has seen loads of peeps going to uni.

There was far greater social mobility when far fewer peeps went to uni - that's an indisputable fact unless you want to dismiss proper research in favour of your perceptions.

[eFestivals]

Can I also point out that University is only one pointer out of many and not a reason to class yourself as middle class alone...

If you go to University and end up stacking shelves at Tesco for minimum wage then its a hard push to say you are middle class...

Likewise, if you earn £80k a year and you never went to Uni, likewise, its hard to suggest you are working class...

That only works if you believe that class is solely to do with income. Your own previous posts have said that you don't work on that basis.

[sifi]

It hasn't always been about savings and assets. It's about whether you are exploited, or do the exploiting.

In our capitalist society, there has been a war going on for the last two - three hundred years between those who profit from the labour of every one else. What's happened recently in this war is the equivalent of propaganda to the effect that people aren't really aware so much anymore that they are being exploited, and that through the machinations of the free market free-for-all, people actually thinking they are "getting on". They are - but nowhere near to the degree that those who actually own and run things are getitng on.

Edited December 16, 2011 by sifi

[sifi]

But isn't this just operating off the mentality that every business owner is a c**t because he takes home more than his employees... Its just anti capitalist thoughts rather than a class issue IMO...

[Snufflebutt]

I'd say if you think of yourself as middle class, you are middle class - the middle class is defined by aspiration imo.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Snufflebutt

[sifi]

I think there is a exploitation issue there...

But are you saying these people are the middle class and not the small business owner ?

[eFestivals]

This whole thread is about peoples "perceptions" I suppose... and flying in the face of your research is a lot of people declaring themselves further up the mythical ladder..

I will let you wrestle with your "proper research"...

I'm not having to wrestle with anything. I know that research is right.

As people are declaring themselves as being further up the ladder against the real facts, what that gets to show is that a huge number of people prefer to lie to themselves than recognise the truth.

[TheGayTent]

You're a conservative supporter?

real working class hero you mate. You're a traitor to your class if you vote tory

[eFestivals]

Just like you can't take education alone, you can't take income either... Although income is a MAJOR factor on where you sit in todays society...

but where a person sits in society via income isn't something that's necessarily related to their class - that's as true today as it's been for centuries I reckon.

Being middle class, as people have said, is about not being a wage slave... Most people need a wage to survive, but if you have, for example, 6 months reserve, then you are much less of a wage slave as someone living hand to mouth...

So savings / assets is a factor... but it always has been to determine "class"....

but, from the likes of the Govt's debt figures, people are more indebted today than they've ever been - and so a huge proportion of people who like to think of themselves as middle class are only managing to think of themselves as that (and do so via their material possessions) via borrowed money.

[TheGayTent]

Does speech figure in anyone's perception?

[eFestivals]

It hasn't always been about savings and assets. It's about whether you are exploited, or do the exploiting.

Spot on. It's never been (and isn't now) about savings and assets, and is about whether you are exploited, or do the exploiting.

In our capitalist society, there has been a war going on for the last two - three hundred years between those who profit from the labour of every one else. What's happened recently in this war is the equivalent of propaganda to the effect that people aren't really aware so much anymore that they are being exploited, and that through the machinations of the free market free-for-all, people actually thinking they are "getting on". They are - but nowhere near to the degree that those who actually own and run things are getitng on.

spot on again.

[eFestivals]

Does speech figure in anyone's perception?

It does mine.

But just as with income, it doesn't give any absolute proof in any direction.