a working class hero is something to be...?

[TheGayTent]

It does mine.

But just as with income, it doesn't give any absolute proof in any direction.

[eFestivals]

I'd say if you think of yourself as middle class, you are middle class - the middle class is defined by aspiration imo.

It's an idea that works - until you realise that by that basis, very few people are workers nowadays.

I don't think that wishing to better yourself changes your class. It requires you to actually better your position within society (rather than better your possessions along with the rest of society) - and the facts of society get to say that things on average are going the other way for any angle outside of that greater collection of material possessions.

It ends up being little different to a working class person of the past being regarded as middle class simply on the basis that they've bought a new flat cap - which is of course a rather ridiculous idea.

[eFestivals]

For me, that's why big business spends so much time and effort ensuring that we aren't fully in Europe - so that the employee protection offered to our continental bretheren isn't afforded to us.

yet at the same time those same big businesses are keen as can be for the 17 Euro states to become as unified as possible, which to me suggests that they feel it will be easier for them to exert pressure to get their wants in that unified system ... essentially, that they feel it will be easier to corrupt democracy.

[sifi]

Fair enough but you didn't answer my question...

Do you think this top 1% are the real middle classes ?

[eFestivals]

Can I just reaffirm that class is a lot of pointless bollocks

It's not. It's an exceedingly real phenomenon, which succeeds in stopping you being who you like to wrongly regard yourself as.

For example, you might consider yourself capable of being an MP - and on one basis, anyone can become an MP so it's true from one angle.

And yet the facts of MPs gets to show that 40 years ago a person of your background* had a much greater chance of being an MP than is the case nowadays, where the vast majority (and more so with the more recent entrants) are of particular backgrounds.

(* I'm basing that from comments you've previously made).

The ideas of class are becoming stronger and not weaker in the reality, even if people's perceptions differ from that.

[sifi]

Question for everyone...

What is the problem with people thinking they are middle class, even if they are not ?

[sifi]

yet at the same time those same big businesses are keen as can be for the 17 Euro states to become as unified as possible, which to me suggests that they feel it will be easier for them to exert pressure to get their wants in that unified system ... essentially, that they feel it will be easier to corrupt democracy.

[eFestivals]

Question for everyone...

What is the problem with people thinking they are middle class, even if they are not ?

If people want to mug themselves by believing falsehoods then they're welcome to, tho it makes me sad that it happens because the effects from that come back onto all of us.

It's via the propaganda trick that "we're all middle class now" that those at the very top have been able to cream off more and more in recent years (which the facts bear out), which is a reversal of the trend that happened thru most of the 1900's. Those who want to wrongly consider themselves as middle class are giving open access of their wallets to the richest.

[russycarps]

To my mind, it's no coincidence that the ratings agencies are going after France and Germany, because a EU-less UK would essentially allow global business to totally put the screw on the workers of this country.

[sifi]

sorry to be a thicko, can you expand on this?

[russycarps]

I just tend to think that for all that is wrong with the EU, some of the employment protection legislation they've created helps to redress the balance - Working Time Directives, co-determination, equalities legislation, maternity and paternity - does ensure that the employee is treated better than say our American work-colleagues are treated. I'd hate for the UK to go down a road where the norm is the American employment type legislation, which is where I see us going - because it benefits big business and allows them to make more money at the expense of the individual.

[lifelessfool]

I would say the class system has evolved over time, it still exists but the old working class is pretty much non existent. Murray Bookchin summed all of this up pretty well in post-scarcity anarchism and I largely believe in what he says. Everythings changed so much that the old working class can't exist in today's world as the issues faced pre world war 2 dont exist, its more a middle working class.

[abdoujaparov]

I never imagined that there would be someone else on here who'd read Murray Bookchin...all is not lost

[grumpyhack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3E5vYNzrds

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

@grumpyhack - nicely placed sketch.

May as well say it because I suspect we're all guilty - I don't look up to anybody (nobody is that good) but I'm probably guilty of looking down on some people. Mind you I suspect they would look down on me, so I guess we're even. I haven't added much have I. lol

[grumpyhack]

Traditional class distinctions may be less obvious today thanks to social, educational and economic mobility but no matter how liberal and inclusive we may like to think we are we all still make judgements on people - for example the decision between whether someone remains an acquaintance or becomes a friend. We also have people we admire or respect, which is a sort of 'looking up to.' For me it's about people's values. I often find that those who have least give the most.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I'd agree that using values as a barometer instead of trying to define class is much more important. That's what I meant really when I said I'm probably guilty of looking down on some people. It isn't to do with their economic worth etc it's to do with their values. I guess even that's a bit harsh when you factor in that people are a product of their environment. Even so that doesn't give you the right to be an anti social member of society. Or does it I wonder?

[grumpyhack]

I once got asked to deliver a confidence building course to a group of young offenders who were in the last chance saloon before going to jail and I discovered that they'd got loads of confidence but based on quite skewed values - for example: "I'm OK because there isn't anyone I can't meet on a Saturday night in town and beat the crap out of" or "I'm OK because there isn't a car I can't hotwire and nick."

So I tore up the planned course and ran a series of sessions with them exploring their values asking questions like 'Is it OK to kiss you mate's girlfriend?' To which the answer was usually 'Yes.' I then asked if it was OK for your mate to kiss your girlfriend, to which the answer was usually 'No.'

Another question was iIs it OK to steal from a) a friend a stranger and c) a member of your family?'

We then explored the inconsistencies in their replies. It was quite fascinating.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

That reminds me of an occasion when somebody walked into a roughish pub one of my friends mom used to run. He had locked himself out of his car and asked if anybody knew how to get into a car without smashing the window. Apparently everybody in the bar, to a person, put their hands up to say that they could. lol

[grumpyhack]

The great thing was that I kept in touch with my "young crims" as they were nicknamed (by themselves - not by me) and three years down the road they were all still out of jail and going straight(ish).

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Nice result. No doubt you planted some seeds of doubt about the way they were viewing life. All for their own good at the end of the day.

[eFestivals]

I would say the class system has evolved over time, it still exists but the old working class is pretty much non existent. Murray Bookchin summed all of this up pretty well in post-scarcity anarchism and I largely believe in what he says. Everythings changed so much that the old working class can't exist in today's world as the issues faced pre world war 2 dont exist, its more a middle working class.

that's an idea that only works if you think that class is all to do with possessions and not a person's place in society.

[lifelessfool]

that's an idea that only works if you think that class is all to do with possessions and not a person's place in society.

[grumpyhack]

I suspect that the school / university you went to (or not) probably still plays a significant part in getting a foot or two up the career ladder.

[eFestivals]

I suspect that the school / university you went to (or not) probably still plays a significant part in getting a foot or two up the career ladder.

It can, but it doesn't do as much as it used to. Getting success today is swinging back towards 'who you know' rather than 'what you know', and so a good degree from a good uni gets you far further if you're also of the 'right' background.

That fact gets to show that people have not only given up on recognising their true place in society, they've also given up on where that recognition is able to take them. Instead people have come to foolishly believe that if they smile nicely and meekly accept others as their superiors they'll get on ... when the facts get to show they'll get shafted.