The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, you've said he didn't say what you're trying to put on him. 

FFS

Tell me how division isn't divisive, so that Khan is the wrong you're now saying he is...?

Or admit you're talking utter crap.

Yet again you prove my Point.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yet again you prove my Point.

then tell me how division isn't divisive, and really prove yourself right and what Khan said as wrong.

FFS

 

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

then tell me how division isn't divisive, and really prove yourself right and what Khan said as wrong.

FFS

 

Enjoy your day.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Enjoy your day.

so you can't even post a link to what you're certain you've addressed in this thread?

You're porkier than porkie the pig.

There's only one reason why you run away from simple questions.

[LJS]

Since Neil has retired from debating this subject, I shall limit myself to the odd wee link to assist with his education.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan?CMP=twt_gu#comment-94107563

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, LJS said:

Since Neil has retired from debating this subject, I shall limit myself to the odd wee link to assist with his education.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan?CMP=twt_gu#comment-94107563

I'm smart enough to recognise what people like you have decided he meant for the purposes of stoking false greivence.

His point was divisive politics, and he was spot on.

All the rest is your invention.

If you bother to read the comments under that article, you'll see it's all the normal snippers who are expressing their outrage, and not a jot of outrage from anyone else (just a bit of dissatisfaction at giving snippers some ammo).

[lost]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Since Neil has retired from debating this subject, I shall limit myself to the odd wee link to assist with his education.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/scottish-nationalists-racist-uk-bigotry-sadiq-khan?CMP=twt_gu#comment-94107563

Quote

For many, to vote for Scotland’s autonomy was to reject the history of imperialism while making sure it was remembered and learned from

That line is brilliant   I'm sure people were queuing up thinking that rather than I wonder what free shit i'm gonna get from all that oil money.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

That line is brilliant   I'm sure people were queuing up thinking that rather than I wonder what free shit i'm gonna get from all that oil money.

OK, so rejecting the "history of imperialism...etc" may not have been top of many people's reasons for supporting Indy, but I can equally assure you that "free shit" wasn't up there for many of us either - it certainly wasn't for me or most folk I know (if it had been I would have been voting SNP since the 1970's when we definitely would have got lots of free shit.) 

However the relevant point perhaps, is that the enthusiastic participation of many Scots in some of the worst excesses of the British Empire (Glasgow was largely built on the proceeds of slavery) is often thrown back in the faces of those of us who perhaps sense a longing for the glory days of Empire in much of the little Britain/hard Brexit nonsense going on just now.  The point is that, by and large, the independence movement does not try & brush these excesses under the carpet but acknowledges them and seeks to learn from them.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'm smart enough to recognise what people like you have decided he meant for the purposes of stoking false greivence.

His point was divisive politics, and he was spot on.

All the rest is your invention.

If its my invention, can you explain to me how virtually the entire National Press picked up the racism angle with almost identical stories? I have raised this before in at least two posts which you have studiously ignored. I think it is because you know exactly why it was reported the way it was and that is because it was briefed that way and deliberately so. As I previously said - this is the start of Project Fear 2 - now with added racism.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

If you bother to read the comments under that article, you'll see it's all the normal snippers who are expressing their outrage, and not a jot of outrage from anyone else (just a bit of dissatisfaction at giving snippers some ammo).

As you are well aware, I don't spend much time BTL (I've seen what it does to people who go there too much) but here's one from beneath that article

 

"As and English man in a mixed race couple who recently moved from Scotland to England I can affirm that the article is spot on. And I was surprised how warped a perception English people have of the independence movement. English people, specifically Londoners, who cannot see past their own noses typically view the independence movement from a position of privilege. 
Residing in the centre of the British political universe, they see any attempt to reject that status quo as something insidious. But the reality is that Scotland has different priorities to the UK government. Scotland needs immigration, the UK government is intent on cutting it. Scotland wants to remain a part of the EU, England voted against EU membership. Scotland doesn't want nuclear weapons housed next to its largest population centre, the mainstream UK parties in government are committed to keeping nuclear weapons on the Clyde. In all these instances, Scotland's policy is held subservient to England's political culture. 
Desiring to break with that is not racist. It may hurt the feelings of English people, but I'm sure the civil rights movement in America hurt the feelings of some white people who enjoyed the status quo. And we know that some of those white people, who didn't get it, cried tears over "reverse racism".

[LJS]

Here's one for you to cut out & keep:

 

As I made clear just up there ^^^ I think the Whole Khan nonsense was deliberately planned & orchestrated to try & create a connection in the public mind between the SNP/Yes movement and racism. 

I predict that this will not be the last we hear of this tactic and I suspect the Union side see it as a potent weapon particularly as "Project Fear" tactics have been somewhat discredited by post-Brexit events.

I further predict that if they don't abandon this vile & pathetic campaigning tactic fairly early in the campaign, it will result in a yes win in Indyref 2.

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, lost said:

That line is brilliant   I'm sure people were queuing up thinking that rather than I wonder what free shit i'm gonna get from all that oil money.

Post of the year.....so far :-)

[lost]

7 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Post of the year.....so far :-)

[lost]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

 I can equally assure you that "free shit" wasn't up there for many of us either - it certainly wasn't for me or most folk I know (if it had been I would have been voting SNP since the 1970's when we definitely would have got lots of free shit.) 

Well down here we are going by the main argument put forward by the SNP. First it was an Icelandic style financial powerhouse on the back of bank of scotland and royal bank of scotland. It was then a rich oil state with Salmond predicting an oil boom. Last year it was just about self determination and now its about rejoining the EU. 

The first two opinions obviously would of been a complete disaster and now this forth one makes it sound like people were not that serious about the third. Scotland would have less autonomy upon rejoining the EU e.g. losing the veto, signing upto fixed fiscal spending targets and having no say regarding its trading agreement with its largest trading partner (the trade agreement between the EU and Britain will probably be decided whilst Scotland is waiting to join the EU) The EU is also hinting that the way to stop further members leaving is that they are going to push for greater integration.

As far as I can see though the fact that the argument keeps changing doesn't really matter to a lot of indy supporters, Its become a matter of faith and concerns such as Scotland's double digit deficit upon leaving Britain are dismissed as easily as a religious person would dismiss the dinosaurs. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I can equally assure you that "free shit" wasn't up there for many of us either

yep, and that's why the white paper promised lots of free shit and used lies to do it.

And it's why even today that the vast majority of snippers find every excuse to reject the financial reality of Scotland, so they can believe there's free stuff to be had instead of poverty.

As I've been saying for 3+ years, and constantly proven by all that happens: it's all about the money.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

The point is that, by and large, the independence movement does not try & brush these excesses under the carpet but acknowledges them and seeks to learn from them.

Hmmm, I can't disagree there's an amount of that.

But there's also a HUGE amount of claiming 'the English' have imperial attitudes towards Scotland and that imperial attitudes are distinctly English, because the 'different' Scots are nothing like the English.

When the truth is that the Scots were more in awe and willing workers and beneficiaries of slavery and Empire than the English.

Next up will you tell us all again that a Scotland ruled by Scots from Scotland will be a better Scotland, while forgetting that it was a Scotland ruled by Scots from Scotland was what bankrupted Scotland into the UK in the first place?

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

I can affirm that the article is spot on.

yep. Khan nailed it when he said that divisive politics you espouse are divisive. I know, I've been telling you that.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I think the Whole Khan nonsense was deliberately planned & orchestrated to try & create a connection in the public mind between the SNP/Yes movement and racism. 

because Sturgeon never talks about the evil of 'English tories', right? Cos there's not 25% of people in Scotland that are 'English tories'.

And nothing of her talking like that is designed to create a 'us' and 'them', just like a racist?

It's the only card you have, the politics of division.

[eFestivals]

46 minutes ago, lost said:

Well down here we are going by the main argument put forward by the SNP. First it was an Icelandic style financial powerhouse on the back of bank of scotland and royal bank of scotland. It was then a rich oil state with Salmond predicting an oil boom. Last year it was just about self determination and now its about rejoining the EU. 

The first two opinions obviously would of been a complete disaster and now this forth one makes it sound like people were not that serious about the third. Scotland would have less autonomy upon rejoining the EU e.g. losing the veto, signing upto fixed fiscal spending targets and having no say regarding its trading agreement with its largest trading partner (the trade agreement between the EU and Britain will probably be decided whilst Scotland is waiting to join the EU) The EU is also hinting that the way to stop further members leaving is that they are going to push for greater integration.

As far as I can see though the fact that the argument keeps changing doesn't really matter to a lot of indy supporters, Its become a matter of faith and concerns such as Scotland's double digit deficit upon leaving Britain are dismissed as easily as a religious person would dismiss the dinosaurs. 

Nailed.

I know someone round here who wanted indie because tory cuts are evil, who now lauds those tory cuts and wants bigger cuts than tory cuts.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Nailed.

I know someone round here who wanted indie because tory cuts are evil, who now lauds those tory cuts and wants bigger cuts than tory cuts.

You'll need to introduce me to them cos I ain't met them.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

because Sturgeon never talks about the evil of 'English tories', right? Cos there's not 25% of people in Scotland that are 'English tories'.

And nothing of her talking like that is designed to create a 'us' and 'them', just like a racist?

It's the only card you have, the politics of division.

You care to address my point about the way Khan's remarks were reported instead of releasing a herd of straw squirrels.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

You'll need to introduce me to them cos I ain't met them.

you've not lauded tory cuts and then extra cuts as the solution to Scotland's deficit?

Funny, cos I seem to remember you once being against austerity, and not being a major proponent of it.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, lost said:

Well down here we are going by the main argument put forward by the SNP. First it was an Icelandic style financial powerhouse on the back of bank of scotland and royal bank of scotland. It was then a rich oil state with Salmond predicting an oil boom. Last year it was just about self determination and now its about rejoining the EU. 

The first two opinions obviously would of been a complete disaster and now this forth one makes it sound like people were not that serious about the third. Scotland would have less autonomy upon rejoining the EU e.g. losing the veto, signing upto fixed fiscal spending targets and having no say regarding its trading agreement with its largest trading partner (the trade agreement between the EU and Britain will probably be decided whilst Scotland is waiting to join the EU) The EU is also hinting that the way to stop further members leaving is that they are going to push for greater integration.

As far as I can see though the fact that the argument keeps changing doesn't really matter to a lot of indy supporters, Its become a matter of faith and concerns such as Scotland's double digit deficit upon leaving Britain are dismissed as easily as a religious person would dismiss the dinosaurs. 

The truth is that people support Scottish independence for a variety of reasons and because Scotland's claim to independence is not (as some mischievously claim) the sanctity of Scottish soil and the purity of Scottish blood, the case for independence requires to be constantly remade in the light of current circumstances  

Take oil for example, arguing that oil wealth provided the foundation for a strong independent Scotland was a perfect valid argument for 25-30 years. It's not now. Personally, it was never am argument I supported as at that time I still believed fairness and justice could be delivered via Westminster. I no longer believe that. 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

You care to address my point about the way Khan's remarks were reported instead of releasing a herd of straw squirrels.

so now you're blaming Khan for how papers reported him?

(That's funny too, cos you used to blame the press for how Corbyn is reported, and not Corbyn.)

It's fuck all to do with how the papers have reported him.

It's everything to do with how people like you are talking up what he never said, while refusing to address the real and solid point he made about divisive politics - as you've demonstrated here by refusing to answer the question I've asked you endlessly.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you've not lauded tory cuts and then extra cuts as the solution to Scotland's deficit?

No, it's something you made up.

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Funny, cos I seem to remember you once being against austerity, and not being a major proponent of it.

That's right & it's still right.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmm, I can't disagree there's an amount of that.

But there's also a HUGE amount of claiming 'the English' have imperial attitudes towards Scotland

Huge as your cock, I'd imagine, Neil.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

and that imperial attitudes are distinctly English, because the 'different' Scots are nothing like the English.

I'm not hearing this, Neil & I happen to live here.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

When the truth is that the Scots were more in awe and willing workers and beneficiaries of slavery and Empire than the English.

Maybe they were. Quite why that would matter in the Indy debate, I have no idea.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Next up will you tell us all again that a Scotland ruled by Scots from Scotland will be a better Scotland,

I can't tell you again what I have never told you before.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

while forgetting that it was a Scotland ruled by Scots from Scotland was what bankrupted Scotland into the UK in the first place?

I believe in our parliamentary democracy elevate not ruled by the prime minister or even the chancellor which makes your point , wrong, irrelevant & potentially racist.