The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Firstly you need to find one definition of what's nasty, and then stick to it.

It's one thing to loan money on a (mostly) commercial basis, it's another thing entirely to expect it given to iScotland just because it's iScotland. Independence is about making your own way, not expecting all of the same things in a majorly changed situation.

Yep, tho Salmond keeps forgetting to use the powers he already has. Why is that?

The point is that this referendum is about independence, the independence referendum which was the major policy platform of the party Scotland voted into majority power.

What's to complain about with that in a democracy?

It's *exactly* what you voted for. You know, like independence will be *exactly* what you voted for.

You can't turn around afterwards and say "we didn't really mean it".

One of the island groups (I forget which is which, soz) is further away from Edinburgh and Glasgow than those cities are from London, and has never voted SNP.

Will you be exceedingly happy to apply the same logic to them if they don't like Salmond's dream, or might you yes-ers suddenly become all project-fear-like, because iScotland is financially fucked if it happened?

At the end of the day, the whole "we should have independence" thing only ever works if you believe Scotland is a nation that should be independent in the first place. That doesn't make it wrong*, but it does mean it can't be logically justified - everything about it is about an imaginary line on the ground that you're choosing to make the most important factor.

(* it can be emotionally justified, but after 30+ years of well-aimed propaganda there'd be something very wrong if it couldn't).

that will be the Shetland Islands

I lived there for 10 years so, I may possibly know just a teensy weensy bit more about it than you.

It hasn't voted SNP or labour or tory (for about 50 years) - it always votes liberal.

Despite various attempts to launch independence movements - none have ever gathered much support and I woudl be genuinely surprised if that were to change.

They also provide an excellent example of the benefits of wisely using oil revenues. They negotiated a levy with BP when they built their oil terminal at Sullom Voe and built up an oil fund of several hundred million pounds which is administered by a number of stand alone trusts - e.g the Sheltand Welfare Trust, The Shetland Arts trust. The Sheltand environmental trust etc

This has resulted in Shetland having probably the best facilities of anywhere in the UK

Meanwhile the UK was using its oil money to pay Unemployment benefit to the millions Thatcher had put out of work & making sure we had nice shiny Nukes.

edit: I see you were there before me Buff

Edited May 4, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

I've no idea if there was a party offering that, but seeing as you have a PR system there's no reason why you shouldn't have had a party offering that - particularly if it's something that people in Scotland want so much.

Had a look at the UK parties 2011 manifestos. No promises of more devolution.

So, arguably, in 2011 the electorate in the main voted for the alternative to No Constitutional Change.

From one perspective, the referendum could be viewed as a verdict on the reaction to the 2011 result. What have the UK Govt done or promised to do in terms of more devolution since then ?

Let's just refresh our memories on 2011. Five minute summary of the result. Best quote is "if you had suggested this four years ago , they would called for the men in white coats"

Warning: contains footage of Alex Salmond

[Buff124]

My apologies for believing the technicalities were different to what I exactly said.

The two relevant points remain:-

1. it is/was a loan.

2. interest is paid on the loan, from which the UK govt makes a profit.

And your point was what?

I'm sure that iScotland will find that London has plenty of bankers who are happy to profit from lending iScotland money. Has that ever been in doubt?

1. Yes its a loan

2. No, there is no profit.

The interest charged is equal to what UK pays on the gilts. There's also an £800k per annum admin charge that is presumably eaten up by guess what.

3. The RoI loan came from UK Govt, not commercial bankers.

[LJS]

I think Neil has got himself a job writing for the Daily Mail

So what happens when Scotland votes yes? Cameron's quit, the Queen is furious, the Shetlands have taken all the oil - and the Scottish economy is tanking: A brilliant 'imagining' of life after the Union

http://archive.today/SLUFa

[russycarps]

2. No, there is no profit.

lol

[kaosmark2]

There is always profit. Not necessarily to the benefit of most people, but that's how our system works.

[LJS]

lol

another astonishingly useful contribution russy!

The way you can say so much in so few words .. in fact without using any real words at al ...l is just astonishing!

[LJS]

There is always profit. Not necessarily to the benefit of most people, but that's how our system works.

except when there is a loss of course

[LJS]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27277038

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27248907

Good news for Scotland shock!

Edited May 5, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

You'll also doubtless be aware of the "Lerwick Declaration"

that's be the SNP's own version of Westminster's devolution to Scotland, where those islands don't get to keep the oil.

[russycarps]

another astonishingly useful contribution russy!

The way you can say so much in so few words .. in fact without using any real words at al ...l is just astonishing!

Well to think the UK government would loan billions of pounds to Ireland interest free is rather amusing.

Ireland have paid many millions in interest to the UK so far. And continue to do so.

I'm sure the UK would loan money to Scotland when you get into difficulties too, at a reasonable rate of interest of course.

[eFestivals]

Despite various attempts to launch independence movements - none have ever gathered much support

which is Scotland still, right now don't forget. Things change. And for Scotland things might change into unsustainable if those islands do what Scotland does.

Perhaps Edinburgh thinks it can buy them off? Just remember, that's not worked for the Scots who want ever last drop of what is theirs.

and I woudl be genuinely surprised if that were to change.

Things do. You never know, Scotland might change into supporting independence too.

This has resulted in Shetland having probably the best facilities of anywhere in the UK

but much less than if they had everything which was theirs.

It's a good job they're more sharey than the Scottish mainlanders, eh?

Meanwhile the UK was using its oil money to pay Unemployment benefit to the millions Thatcher had put out of work & making sure we had nice shiny Nukes.

yep, a policy continued by two Scottish born Prime Ministers. Those tory English are such bastards, eh?

They're bastards for making the finances work, rather than wanting raving-right wing (to the right of the tories) no-regulation of the banks like those lefties at the SNP which would have bankrupted iScotland.

It's all very well saying "Scotland wouldn't have wasted the oil money" but you don't know that's true, and it's ancient history. It can't be changed.

Edited May 5, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

Well to think the UK government would loan billions of pounds to Ireland interest free is rather amusing.

Ireland have paid many millions in interest to the UK so far. And continue to do so.

I'm sure the UK would loan money to Scotland when you get into difficulties too, at a reasonable rate of interest of course.

Ocht, I knew you would be aware of it ! You're so knowledgable aboot the politics of the Northern Isles !

You'll have signed the petition then ?

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups

[Buff124]

Well to think the UK government would loan billions of pounds to Ireland interest free is rather amusing.

Ireland have paid many millions in interest to the UK so far. And continue to do so.

I'm sure the UK would loan money to Scotland when you get into difficulties too, at a reasonable rate of interest of course.

Russy, where did UK Govt get the money to loan to RoI Govt ?

[eFestivals]

Had a look at the UK parties 2011 manifestos. No promises of more devolution.

So, arguably, in 2011 the electorate in the main voted for the alternative to No Constitutional Change.

Eh? I thought Scotland was a sophisticated democracy, with a great electoral system that delivers what the people want.

Or perhaps it's much more flawed than you want to believe, and only delivers what the politicians want?

From one perspective, the referendum could be viewed as a verdict on the reaction to the 2011 result.

Scotland has got what Scotland has asked for, but that's not good enough for Scotland?

I guess it's all the fault of those nasty people in Westminster, making the Scots ask for the wrong thing?

What have the UK Govt done or promised to do in terms of more devolution since then ?

1 the SG doesn't use the full range of powers it has right now, preferring instead for people to be in poverty. But that'll change post-independence, yeah?

Prior to the last SG election Scotland already knew more powers were coming. Scotland chose not to wait for them, instead voting for a referendum.

FFS.

Best quote is "if you had suggested this four years ago , they would called for the men in white coats"

And today? You need to review your own thoughts to find some consistency, or you need the men in white coats.

[LJS]

Again & astonishingly Neil knows more about the Shetland Islands than I do. Even although I lived there for 10 years & he didn't even know what they were called yesterday.

Mind Boggling arrogance!

You would get on well with this maniac

http://www.sovereignshetland.com/Downloads/ForvikTheBook.pdf

[LJS]

Here's what Michael Ancram Conservative Consitutional Affairs Spokesman said in Parliament before the 1997 referendum

Last week, I warned that the people of Scotland were facing a dark, cold night. Just how dark and cold is becoming daily more apparent, as the small print of the muddled proposals is examined. It is a matter not just of what is in the proposals, but of what is not—it is the failure to answer questions on Europe, on tax and on many other crucial issues; it is the rush to get the referendum through before the Scottish people wake up to what is being done to them; and it is the implicit dishonesty in implying that people can vote for the package to save the United Kingdom at the same time as voting for it to break up the United Kingdom.

But the dawn beyond the night is no less cold, for it would find Scotland, having left the wider stage which historically it has bestrode so famously, withdrawn into itself, and inevitably resentful. It would find the Scottish people worse off, and it would find the United Kingdom torn apart.

The White Paper and the project that it sets out will end in tears—tears for the Scots and tears for the United Kingdom. I firmly reject it and I call on the people of Scotland to do the same before it is too late.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1997/jul/31/scottish-devolution-1

And you wonder why we don't believe all the predictions of doom & gloom?

Ah, but of course it is different this time isn't it? - Honest we are telling the truth.

[eFestivals]

1. Yes its a loan

2. No, there is no profit.

It's a loan. It's charged to Ireland at the same price as the UK pays out on its own borrowings. That was in what you yourself presented to me.

The interest charged is equal to what UK pays on the gilts.

that means that Ireland is paying an interest rate.

That means a profit for the UK.

Even the FT says so.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/499671c2-084d-11e0-8527-00144feabdc0.html

3. The RoI loan came from UK Govt, not commercial bankers.

yep - any lender can choose to lend, or not to lend. The borrower has to come begging.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Scotland will fuck up so badly it's going to need financial rescue with the help of 27 other states and the IMF, with punitive measures imposed on Scotland as a consequence of the bail out?

Cos that's what happened with Ireland, and it ain't pretty as plenty of Irish can tell you.

[eFestivals]

I think Neil has got himself a job writing for the Daily Mail

yeah, pointing out any possible consequences of independence means I went to Eton.

How bloody foolish of me, eh? If only I'd gone to school in Scotland I'd be smart enough to know that there is no possibility of anything bad happening to iScotland.

And that's because iScotland is the only country in the world who will have perfect policy from perfect politicians with a perfect 'sophisticated' electorate using a perfect voting system with a perfect constitution.

I wonder why no other countries thought of that? They're bloody smart those Scots.

[eFestivals]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27277038

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27248907

Good news for Scotland shock!

no comment on the bad news for Scotland shock from Moodys?

Or did they go to Eton, so they don't count?

[eFestivals]

Russy, where did UK Govt get the money to loan to RoI Govt ?

it was created it out of thin air. That's what you do when own the printing presses.

(it's a fiscally neutral measure, because as the loan is paid back the new money is destroyed).

Oh dear.

Edited May 5, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Again & astonishingly Neil knows more about the Shetland Islands than I do. Even although I lived there for 10 years & he didn't even know what they were called yesterday.

I couldn't remember which is which. Here's betting you don't know the geographical position of every island off the Englaish coast. :rolleyes

What claim have I made for the Shetlands?

I've merely pointed out that they, like Scotland, could choose to decide that all of the oil is theirs.

You know, that the same basis that Scotland is using against the UK can be used within Scotland. Why don't you much like the thought of others doing to you what you do to others?

[eFestivals]

And you wonder why we don't believe all the predictions of doom & gloom?

are their possible bad consequences for Scotland by being independent?

[Buff124]

It's a loan. It's charged to Ireland at the same price as the UK pays out on its own borrowings.

that means that Ireland is paying an interest rate.

That means a profit for the UK.

Even the FT says so.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/499671c2-084d-11e0-8527-00144feabdc0.html

"That means a profit for the UK." One that is completely offset by the interest rate charged on the gilts issued by UK Govt to fund the loan to RoI.

[eFestivals]

"That means a profit for the UK." One that is completely offset by the interest rate charged on the gilts issued by UK Govt to fund the loan to RoI.

the loan money is created, not borrowed.