The Dirty Independence Question

[snoopyhill]

Heres my prediction....

English voters are going to get increasingly pissed of at the special powers Hollywood keeps getting... This devo-MAX options is a fucking insult to the rest of us. You want your cake and you want to eat it as well...

I fail to see why Scotland should get more control and power as if it was an independent country while being afford the privilege of staying part of the UK and expecting a vote on issues that affect England and not Scotland.

Please just fuck off if you want to be independent!!! and stop doing this soft arse fight for half and half.

Did you mean Holyrood or are you saying the Scottish Parliament is a dream factory? I suppose both work.

[russycarps]

Everyone I know expects independence to be difficult and our standard of living may drop but we will be making our own decisions for better or worse. As far as currency is concerned it ranks 5th most important issue in Scotland behind Economy, Pensions, Welfare and our relationship with the rest of UK. We have a different set of priorities from Westminster. Personally I am fed up having a government that ranks London interests and the views of floating English voters above Scotland so I will be voting for independence and will put up with the problems and issues that brings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26102076

It amazes me that some of you think we blindly follow Alex Salmond this is simply wrong. In Scottish elections we vote for SNP because of what they stand for and how well they manage Scotland but for Westminster more than twice as many vote for Labour than SNP what happens to Alex's influence then?

Perhaps the Scottish electorate are a wee bit more sophisticated than some of you give us credit for.

Here's my prediction: As the referendum approaches the polls show a narrowing of the the gap, all Westminster parties promise more powers for Holyrood and the vote is a close run No.

2015 General Election UKIP make a impact in England/Wales and influence Government policy even more maybe even a Con/UKIP coalition if the polls are to be believed this in turn leads to UK leaving EU. Scottish elections are held in 2016 and SNP are returned with a larger majority a new referendum is called and 2018 Scotland votes for independence. 2020 sees the first Independent Scottish Parliament.

So you are a right wing nationalist then? Sound. You care only for Scottish people and nobody else? Fair enough.

Thankfully most of us arent quite so selfish and insular.

[wee_insomniac]

If Scotland does vote for independence, would that mean that the remaining parts of the UK would be most likely to have a majority Tory government voted in at each election as the whole of Scotland pretty much elects either Labour or SNP?

[kaosmark2]

If Scotland does vote for independence, would that mean that the remaining parts of the UK would be most likely to have a majority Tory government voted in at each election as the whole of Scotland pretty much elects either Labour or SNP?

Only short term. Political trends tend to show that people shift their vote to change government, so while we'd probably be stuck with the fuckers for another 2 terms, it'd drive more people away for the mid-term. I don't think in 20 years we'd still have endless Tory majorities if Scotland went independent now.

[eFestivals]

Everyone I know expects independence to be difficult

That must be everyone except Alex then. He thinks it's a jam party, with jam, more jam, and only jam, including jam that isn't his.

While I'd like to think the electorate are smart enough to realise that, the fact that Alex is your country's leader and no one up there seems to be pointing out just how laughable his promises are, I think that would be an assumption too far.

and our standard of living may drop but we will be making our own decisions for better or worse. As far as currency is concerned it ranks 5th most important issue in Scotland behind Economy, Pensions, Welfare and our relationship with the rest of UK.

Unfortunately, the matter of currency impacts hugely onto iScotland's economy, pensions, welfare and its relationship with the rest of UK - so much so that I find it rather astounding that these others can be rated more important. And for that last one, it's even more astounding that the yes campaign doesn't recognise the damage it's doing to its own future.

We have a different set of priorities from Westminster. Personally I am fed up having a government that ranks London interests and the views of floating English voters above Scotland so I will be voting for independence and will put up with the problems and issues that brings.

I'm pleased to see those words, words that can so rarely be seen (where I look, anyhow) from yes supporters. If a country is to be independent it has to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth: "my country for better or worse" sort-of-thing. Any other attitude is likely to lead to massive disappointment and extra problems for an iScotland.

But those "London interests" are really only big business interests, and Salmond has already sold himself to them. iScotland won't have as many of the differences you're presuming.

It amazes me that some of you think we blindly follow Alex Salmond this is simply wrong.

and yet the people of Scotland elected him and there is mass acceptance of the white paper. I'll change my mind when the people of Scotland are laughing at both the white paper and Alex.

Perhaps the Scottish electorate are a wee bit more sophisticated than some of you give us credit for.

if that were so Alex would not be leading your country, and particularly into this independence issue on the basis that he is.

Every electorate likes to think itself sophisticated. Elections almost everywhere show just how unsophisticated electorates are.

It might be the case that Scotland does have a more sophisticated electorate than the UK as a whole, who knows? But any extra sophistication is very minimal, that much is certain as shown by the independence campaign.

Here's my prediction: As the referendum approaches the polls show a narrowing of the the gap, all Westminster parties promise more powers for Holyrood and the vote is a close run No.

2015 General Election UKIP make a impact in England/Wales and influence Government policy even more maybe even a Con/UKIP coalition if the polls are to be believed this in turn leads to UK leaving EU. Scottish elections are held in 2016 and SNP are returned with a larger majority a new referendum is called and 2018 Scotland votes for independence. 2020 sees the first Independent Scottish Parliament.

I though you'd just claimed a greater political sophistication?

[eFestivals]

If Scotland does vote for independence, would that mean that the remaining parts of the UK would be most likely to have a majority Tory government voted in at each election as the whole of Scotland pretty much elects either Labour or SNP?

there's been just parliaments in the last 60 years where the MPs of Scotland would have changed the situation in Westminster - once where it would have been tory instead of Labour and once when Labour would have been a minority govt and not a majority one.

It's no biggie, especially now that we only have neo-liberal parties (as does Scotland; Alex is Rupert's best mate).

[snoopyhill]

there's been just parliaments in the last 60 years where the MPs of Scotland would have changed the situation in Westminster - once where it would have been tory instead of Labour and once when Labour would have been a minority govt and not a majority one.

It's no biggie, especially now that we only have neo-liberal parties (as does Scotland; Alex is Rupert's best mate).

3 not 2 1964 and twice in 1974 i think you are missing a Labour minority to Conservative minority. I missed that as well first time I checked it.

Edited March 17, 2014 by snoopyhill

[snoopyhill]

Oh and 2010 would have been a Conservative majority not coalition

[eFestivals]

Oh and 2010 would have been a Conservative majority not coalition

well, whatever it's been, Scotland's choice is not something I can change if that changes rUK election results.

But just as I think they'll be a resurgence of conservatism* in an iScotland, I think they'll also be an English electoral left-leaning reaction to a split, because even many of those who are happy to vote tory wouldn't be happy to see more tory-ism than we have currently.

(* not necessarily of the UK Conservative Party type)

There's nothing about an independent Scotland that scares me as someone who will likely remain in the rUK. At worst it'll be much the same as the shite we've been having anyway.

That's not the case in Scotland. I'm not saying don't go for it, but do have your eyes open cos there's a lot which won't happen in the perfect way that the white paper says it will.

[wee_insomniac]

I found it quite funny that there will be 150,000 English born people living in Scotland that are able to vote, but 750,000 Scottish born people living in England who won't be able to vote...

[Buff124]

no one up there seems to be pointing out just how laughable his promises are

Leave that to the No campaign. Then nobody believes it. Which is a bit like PM Cameron at the weekend saying Vote No and then just trust us to give you Devo Max (-ish). Its a bit of an understatement to call it a credibility gap.

[Buff124]

But just as I think they'll be a resurgence of conservatism* in an iScotland (* not necessarily of the UK Conservative Party type)

Struggling again, this time to see where this innate conservatism will stem from. Its not part of Scottish popular culture, as evidence by this scientific analysis of well known figures:

Never a conservative.....

Frankie Boyle

Kevin Bridges

Gerry Sadowitz

Billy Connolly

Rab C Nesbitt

Every one of Limmy's characters

Nae so sure....

Private Fraser out of Dad's Army

Scrooge McDuck

[eFestivals]

Leave that to the No campaign. Then nobody believes it. Which is a bit like PM Cameron at the weekend saying Vote No and then just trust us to give you Devo Max (-ish). Its a bit of an understatement to call it a credibility gap.

Isn't it funny that the *only* words by Dave & Co that yes campaigners want to accept as having any truth are the words about it being all the Uk's debt?

Everything else is decried as bullying bluster and bullshit, no matter what relationship those words might have to any facts or any nation's sovereignty (aside from iScotland's).

And meanwhile, where they have decided that English words are true, they've decided that only half the statement is true, and that the statement is to be interpreted in the best possible light towards Scotland.

What was it you said about Scotland having a politically sophisticated electorate again? PMSL.

[Buff124]

So FM Salmond (and by implication the Scottish Government, as they are apparently one and the same thing) has sold his soul to big business and the Gods of Mammon. Michty me !

Then let us consider the recent alleged experience of a Mr Donald Trumph, billionaire property developer.

Mr Trumph: Howdy, I wish to build a world class golf course up in Aberdeenshire. You can thank me later.

Scottish Govt Planning Directorate: [Thinks: is he off his chump ? Ye canna play golf at Balmedie. The wind's so strong it turns the locals hackit faced. Its so strong an elephant wid hiv tae lean into it. Its so strong your tee shot would end up in Colchester. Oh, I get it. He wants to build a 300 home exclusive residential development and the golf course is just window dressing to get planning permission. Well, there's also planning permission for an offshore wind turbine farm just off the coast at Balmedie. No mega-rich person would buy a place with the sea view spoilt like that. But hey, if he wants to put a few quid into the local economy by building a fair to mediocre golf course where you have to play your second shot from Colchester then fair enough.] Aye okay Mr T.

Mr Trumph (when he finds out about the windfarm): I'll sue your sorry asses off you lying little expletive deleted !

[Attempts to block wind farm. Fails. Withdraws application to expand golf course 'resort'. Buggers off to Ireland to try it on with them]

Edited March 17, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

Struggling again, this time to see where this innate conservatism will stem from. Its not part of Scottish popular culture

well, apart from being an indisputable fact of Scottish culture .

(just not so recently)

Do you think that Scotland is free of greedy capitalists, then? And there was me thinking that much of the SNP's funds come from one of Scotland's greediest and biggest capitalists, who could be said to be trying to buy the govt, and seems to be doing pretty well with his purchase too. Silly me.

[snoopyhill]

I found it quite funny that there will be 150,000 English born people living in Scotland that are able to vote, but 750,000 Scottish born people living in England who won't be able to vote...

Anyone living in Scotland and registered to vote can take part regardless of the country they were born in, not that funny but pretty clear

[Buff124]

Isn't it funny that the *only* words by Dave & Co that yes campaigners want to accept as having any truth are the words about it being all the Uk's debt?

Everything else is decried as bullying bluster and bullshit, no matter what relationship those words might have to any facts or any nation's sovereignty (aside from iScotland's).

And meanwhile, where they have decided that English words are true, they've decided that only half the statement is true, and that the statement is to be interpreted in the best possible light towards Scotland.

What was it you said about Scotland having a politically sophisticated electorate again? PMSL.

Not everything is a lie.

I know, unbelievable innit ?

[eFestivals]

So FM Salmond has sold his soul to big business and the Gods of Mammon.

wrong big business interests.

Try Souter; try Murdoch.

You'll find that your lovely Alex will go the extra twenty miles for those two, to fatten their pockets.

Have you not noticed Alex flying off to New Ypork for regular chat's with Murdoch to get his instructions (at least desperate Dave can get Murdoch to make house calls)?

Have you not noticed the dodgy bus contracts?

These are public record.

[eFestivals]

Not everything is a lie.

oOOOO, progress, I like.

Care to go beyond the yes campaign and admit to some inconvenient truths for iScotland then?

[kaosmark2]

Not everything is a lie.

I know, unbelievable innit ?

Depends if it's from the mouth of a politician.

[eFestivals]

Depends if it's from the mouth of a politician.

You're going off-message.

Apparently they're different in Scotland and would never lie to their electorate, cos if they did the sophisticated Scottish electorate would be all over them.

Now, where's that white chip paper?

[Buff124]

At least they're *our* liars [can't find the tongue stuck out smiley ]

[kaosmark2]

The SNP have been in a blessed position for years. They've been able to promise that they'll do absolutely everything the electorate wants, while only needing to make token gestures towards that, because they can claim they haven't got enough influence to be able to push policies through on their own and have to negotiate for everything. Suddenly, they won an election, and have the opportunity to try and convince the Scottish electorate that they can actually deliver in a real meaningful way.

However, from my understanding, they haven't actually used their Holyrood majority to push through any major reforms along the lines of what they've been promising, citing Westminster influence and the pending referendum. The current degree of devolution should mean they could have got more done in this term so far, yet the most noteworthy thing they've done is manage a campaign of bullshit and postpone being held to account until after the referendum.

For years they've got by on the same tactics in elections as the Lib Dems, being able to make lots of promises without feeling the pressure of fulfilling them. I suspect when they're called to account on them they'll be proven exactly the same as the rest of them.

I agree with what Neil's been saying though. It's the right of Scottish people to vote for independence if they want it, but they need to be voting for independence, not voting for everything Salmond's promising, as he and the SNP won't be able to deliver.

[eFestivals]

At least they're *our* liars [can't find the tongue stuck out smiley ]

True, tho that doesn't make anything about them any nicer than anyone else's.

Somewhere along the line of this convo I seem to remember being told about how Scotland was different and that difference was what you were voting for, tho. And now it seems that you're not.

So all that's left is the money, but what money is actually left you don't find out till Alex's bullshit has cleared your coffers of at least some of it (when it could have been played far better on that front).

The monetary deficit - whatever size it ends up being - is something an independent Scotland can cope with, but the democratic deficit is what has me worried for Scotland independent or not. Whichever side wins, the disappointment caused by the lies is going to be one hell of a hurdle to get over at a time when the last thing your country should be doing is tearing itself apart.

Edited March 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[snoopyhill]

So Salmond is in Murdoch and now Soutar's pocket both are large employers in Scotland and I would expect regular contact. Alex Salmond is the most scrutinised politician in UK and and yet you know better.... Astounding!

We are not voting for the white paper we are voting for Independence.

The white paper is Scottish Government's vision of what Scotland could be like. If we vote Yes the other parties will publish their visions and we can hold an election to decide which we prefer.

There is no guarantee that an SNP Government will win a post Independence election I'm sure Churchill expected to win after World War 2 and look how that turned out