The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

So Salmond is in Murdoch and now Soutar's pocket both are large employers in Scotland and I would expect regular contact.

Yes.

Alex Salmond is the most scrutinised politician in UK

No.

We are not voting for the white paper we are voting for Independence.

Yes.

The white paper is Scottish Government's vision of what Scotland could be like. If we vote Yes the other parties will publish their visions and we can hold an election to decide which we prefer.

There is no guarantee that an SNP Government will win a post Independence election I'm sure Churchill expected to win after World War 2 and look how that turned out

Yes.

[Buff124]

If (caveats etc) there's a yes vote then iScotland has election in 2016. The SNP have lost their raison d'etre. The election will be won by Old Labour. Look at it this way, it might help to explain things



www.vbox7.com/play:892d863c

Edited March 17, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

True, tho that doesn't make anything about them any nicer than anyone else's.

Nice people are a rarity in politics. That's why the exceptions stand out. Tony Benn RIP.

Somewhere along the line of this convo I seem to remember being told about how Scotland was different and that difference was what you were voting for, tho.

CoSLA, the representative body for all 32 Scottish city and county councils held their annual conference last week, Who was their keynote speaker and guest of honour ?

Ken Livingstone. Nuff said ?

[Buff124]

You do realise that in the event of a yes vote (caveats) then after the 2016 election the new First Minister of iScotland could well be Gordon Brown ?

[eFestivals]

So Salmond is in Murdoch and now Soutar's pocket both are large employers in Scotland and I would expect regular contact. Alex Salmond is the most scrutinised politician in UK and and yet you know better.... Astounding!

It's one thing talking, it;'s another thing entirely to take one from them - and Alex loves to take one.

Has no one in Scotland ever noticed the extremely 'advantageous' bus contracts that Souter got immediately after the SNP gained power? Really? REALLY????

One minute you Scots are complaining that you're ignored and the next you're claiming to have the UK's most scrutinised politician. Perhaps you can make up your mind and stick to it?

We are not voting for the white paper we are voting for Independence.

you are voting for independence on the (ridiculous) vision laid out in the white paper.

But if you wish to change the referendum question to match your view - so it says something like "do you want independence even if it costs your family a fortune?" - let's see how well the vote goes, eh?

The white paper is Scottish Government's vision of what Scotland could be like. If we vote Yes the other parties will publish their visions and we can hold an election to decide which we prefer.

There is no guarantee that an SNP Government will win a post Independence election I'm sure Churchill expected to win after World War 2 and look how that turned out

And yet with so many people having voted for fantasy jam and finding out that the buckets of jam don't actually exist, and the vote won by a narrow margin (if won at all), how exactly are things going to go in that new independent Scotland that most will already be regretting having voted for (see that BBC poll on the economics)? Well?

Or might your country start tearing itself apart before it's even a country?

Vote yes if you want to, but only vote on the white paper if you're voting for massive disappointment and an unhappy Scotland.

Edited March 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

If (caveats etc) there's a yes vote then iScotland has election in 2016. The SNP have lost their raison d'etre. The election will be won by Old Labour.

which will get to mean that the people of Scotland get something entirely different to the vision of an independent Scotland that they'll have voted for.

This is where the danger is for Scotland, not in the economics (whatever the truth of those might end up to be).

The danger is disappointment and immediate regret, especially if the yes vote is less than 65%.

[eFestivals]

You do realise that in the event of a yes vote (caveats) then after the 2016 election the new First Minister of iScotland could well be Gordon Brown ?

Might that be a Scot that wasn't excluded by the Engli8h, in contrast to the national SNP's myth?

[Buff124]

You are in a Union or you aren't...

I'd be the last person to point out the obvious parallels with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland being in the European Union, yet opting out of a number of conditions of membership, not the least of which is a currency union. But somebody gotta do it, so...

[Buff124]

Dunno about you, but I find the (admittedly unlikely) scenario of Broonie the Walking Thundercloud as First Minister of iScotland one which is redolent with Shakespearian overtones. Or undertones even. Whatever.

It's less of a Plan McB, more of a Plan McBeth. All hail Thane of Cawdor and so on.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

What do you call Gordon Brown when he's asleep ? An argument waiting to happen. Compared to him Alex Salmond is a basket of kittens.

Worth bearing in mind the chaps kneeling in this pic are were on £45k p.a.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/wintour-and-watt/2010/apr/14/gordon-and-sarah-royal-treatment

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

But we aren't talking about the European Union which is an entirely different thing... We are talking about the United Kingdom... and we aren't talking about opting out of certain things.... We are talking about Scotland wanting more power than the rest of the UK...

And a "currency union" has never been a condition to be a member of the EU.... If it was we wouldn't be able to opt out... Like we couldn't opt out of free and open borders...

Your post was shite...

Sorry Baz, I;m just dicking around as usual. When's that Glasto line-up getting announced FFS !

EDIT: Just new member states then ?

"The conditions and timing of the candidate's adoption, implementation and enforcement of all current EU rules (the "acquis").

These rules are divided into 35 different policy fields (chapters), such as transport, energy, environment, etc., each of which is negotiated separately.

They are not negotiable: candidates essentially agree on how and when to adopt and implement them."

"Chapter 17: Economic and monetary policy : New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern.

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

If it was we wouldn't be able to opt out... Like we couldn't opt out of free and open borders...

Your post was shite...

Still just dickin around. Can't opt out of border controls, you say ?

"Which EU countries are not party to the Schengen agreement?

The UK and Republic of Ireland have opted out. The UK wants to maintain its own borders, and Dublin prefers to preserve its free movement arrangement with the UK - called the Common Travel Area - rather than join Schengen."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723

[Buff124]

We are talking about Scotland wanting more power than the rest of the UK...

Your post was shite...

More powers, you say. Where do these powers come from ? Are they created from thin air ? In a word, no. They will be transferred from the current holder, the UK Parliament. Scotland, 'i' or not, are effectively opting out of having stuff like taxation levels and housing benefit being decided in Westminster. Its in the Scotland Act 2012. Comes into force in 2016, co-incidentally enough.

[Buff124]

But apart from those points your post was pretty excellent, I have to say.

Peace.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

And a "currency union" has never been a condition to be a member of the EU.

Not correct - now, anyway.

All new EU members are required (Lisbon Treaty) to join the Euro.

Like we couldn't opt out of free and open borders...

Again, not correct.

The UK has an opt-out on what gets called the "Schengen agreement". This is the part where there's no border posts or customs checks within the EU, except for those who have opted out (the UK & Ireland, not sure if there's others).

All new EU members are required (Lisbon Treaty) to join the Schengen agreement.

So, as things stand currently, an iScotland in the EU would be required to be part of Schengen, and that would mean border posts at the land border between England and Scotland.

These are the sorts of things that lovely Alex has decided to bullshit the people of Scotland about, and the people of Scotland have sucked it up.

It's the lies are what will make an iScotland go horribly wrong, not independence itself.

PS....

Your post was shite...

back at ya Barry.

[eFestivals]

EDIT: Just new member states then ?

yep, exactly that.

Which is something entirely different to what lovely Alex has been telling the people of Scotland, and the people of Scotland have just sucked it up.

[eFestivals]

Scotland, 'i' or not, are effectively opting out of having stuff like taxation levels and housing benefit being decided in Westminster. Its in the Scotland Act 2012. Comes into force in 2016, co-incidentally enough.

*Income* tax levels, within strict boundaries.

It's a bit of a pointless sop to Scotland, unless you lot actually want follow thru on it and screw up the economy, which'll head south.

[Buff124]

Anyone familiar with the EU Principles, in particular the one about Subsidiarity ?

Its the one about specific powers of governance being devolved to the most local level wherever possible.

Anyone familiar with Viable Systems Modelling (VSM) ? Stafford Beer ? How to Run A Country ?

No ? Pity. Everyone should have at least an vague kind of awareness that this kind of stuff even exists.

[eFestivals]

Anyone familiar with the EU Principles, in particular the one about Subsidiarity ?

It's a principle for member states, not regions within states.

Anyone familiar with Viable Systems Modelling (VSM) ? Stafford Beer ? How to Run A Country ?

I am, but I wouldn't like to get into a Scottish version of how it's meant to work, given the Scottish versions of sovereignty and EU rules.

Edited March 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

It's a principle for member states, not regions within states.

Where do states devolve power to ?

I am, but I wouldn't like to get into a Scottish version of how it's meant to work, given the Scottish versions of sovereignty and EU rules.

Brilliant. There is always hope.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

I like Slater's Ales. Does that count?

He'd have liked that one.

[eFestivals]

Where do states devolve power to ?

that's not the point, at least from the EU's point of view.

The EU's principle of subsidiarity is a principle for operation between the EU and it's member states.

It's about allowing the member states to act in a sovereign manner within their own territories. In practice, it means that member states set the exact implementation/administration of any EU obligations rather than them be dictated to that member state from the EU.

That principle is only interested in a more local level to the extent of whether the question "is EU policy being implemented properly in this place?" gets a positive answer.

I know it'll upset Scotland to hear it, but it's not a charter for a region within a member state to steal sovereignty from its national govt.

Brilliant. There is always hope.

I'm still hoping that you'll answer my question of what is a currency, but I've mostly given up asking.

[Buff124]

I'm still hoping that you'll answer my question of what is a currency, but I've mostly given up asking.

The reality is that nothing will crystallise until after the referendum. Sheer speculation suggests that currency union is stuck in between two pre-negotiating positions, one of which is non-negotiation. Impasse, despite arguments on both sides that have had a good airing on this thread already.

Plan B is a variable. It won't crystallise until after the referendum either. The Standard & Poor credit assessment put Scotland with a fiat currency at about the same level as New Zealand as an investment risk. It could be plan B

The time lag betwen a yes vote and date of separation gives enough time to negotiate a seamless transition to EU membership, particularly if Clause 48 is successfully invoked. So joining the Euro as plan B shouldn't be ruled out either.

Currency pegging I don't know enough about so have a real handle on, but I don't particularly like the sound of it. Who knows ?

[Buff124]

that's not the point, at least from the EU's point of view.

The EU's principle of subsidiarity is a principle for operation between the EU and it's member states.

Yes of course it is. But as a principle in itself it is surely applicable at a number of levels. Think VSM. Think fractals.

[Buff124]

This is a straight lift from “National Government: disseminated regulation in real time, or ‘How to run a country’” by Stafford Beer. (no laughing, Scruffy)

"Let us turn to System Four, which handles the interaction of the whole viable system (that is the Nation in this case) with the outside world. Of course, System One deals piecemeal with its own set of environments, as a matter of local adaptation; but System Four acts for the nation as a whole. For instance, the Minister of Education is part of System One, whereas the Foreign Minister is part of System Four. But System Four is especially concerned with an environment that includes the future of its own people. Each component of System One is involved with the home milieu; but overall responsibility for the people’s future is a regulatory function shared between the people themselves and the government agencies that act for them."

EDIT: Its a question of where functions are best located, at which level. Why are some functions best dealt with at United Nations level ? Or European Union, and so on down the VSM model until you get to Parish Councils or something similar.

Devolvement of functions to the most appropriate level is some thing that should happen as a matter of course - in an ideal world (whatever that is).

Edited March 18, 2014 by Buff124