The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

[lost]

Scottish councils are using the high number of new voter registrations due to the Indy vote to track down poll tax arrears from 20 years ago.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/council-to-track-down-scots-owing-poll-tax-arrears-1-3556518

[eFestivals]

Scottish councils are using the high number of new voter registrations due to the Indy vote to track down poll tax arrears from 20 years ago.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/council-to-track-down-scots-owing-poll-tax-arrears-1-3556518

I can't really say i'm surprised. It's a debt owed to them, and most people did cough up, however unwillingly - so why should others get away with not paying?

Me, I didn't pay (in England), until I went to college in the same council area - and the college passed them my details, and then told me that if I didn't settle with the council I'd be booted out of college. So I had to pay, and that was my student loan eaten up.

Sadly-amusingly, the country is finally - over 20 years later - waking up to the scam to benefit the rich that was firstly the poll tax and secondly the council tax.

The rating system was right all along! Forget about a 'mansion tax', and let's do it properly with a rating system in the same manner as in the past.

Edited September 30, 2014 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

-snip-

But what yes needs more than anything else is real firm plans that face up to the realities of the world, and not rhetoric and bluster. 50% will never be won over on blind faith alone; yes will need to win the substantive arguments, and it's not yet even started to try doing that.

I do think that, long-term, an independent Scotland could be good for itself, the UK and the world as a whole, but unlike the recent campaign, the basis for lots of it needs to be established in advance. If we assume there's another referendum in ~20 years, then it could be a lot more viable then. Salmond's independence was based initially on bribery then on nationalist rhetoric. That isn't necessarily the only way to try and get it.

[eFestivals]

I do think that, long-term, an independent Scotland could be good for itself, the UK and the world as a whole

it really annoys me when the splitters claim they're splitting for the good of those they're fucking off. We can make up our own minds, thanks very much.

These are the same splitters who aren't even able to recognise the reality of their own country, so how the fuck are they able to recognise the reality of another country?

(the proof that they can't is with the federalist claims )

but unlike the recent campaign, the basis for lots of it needs to be established in advance.

that would require the nationalists to actually ask questions and accept answers they're given - the two things they just would not do this time around.

Given that the answers will always be extremely inconvenient to an independence campaign I'm not hopeful that'll happen.

If we assume there's another referendum in ~20 years, then it could be a lot more viable then.

it's just about impossible to see how it might be.

Oil, and Scotland's greater issues around its aging population - mostly caused by many of its youngsters heading south, a scenario only likely to increase off the back of business desertion due to indy-uncertainty - suggests that thge economic side of things will only get worse and not better.

The vote this month got to show that voting yourself poorer is not a popular policy, even if that 'poorer' might only be for a decade or three.

Salmond's independence was based initially on bribery then on nationalist rhetoric. That isn't necessarily the only way to try and get it.

True.

Scotland will only be successfully independent if it approaches independence honestly. Trying to get people on-side with bullshit will only come back to haunt the country.

Independence works because of a national unity. Outside of that you get something like what can be currently seen with Russia & Ukraine (tho not necessarily with people shooting each other).

Edited September 30, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

is this a joke?

Brown calls on Scots to sign devolution 'promises' petition

Former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown has called for 100,000 Scots to sign a petition urging Westminster to keep promises on devolution.

Mr Brown said there should be "no strings attached" to promises of more powers for Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

[atomised]

So, unless I'm missing something this is please sign a petition asking for something I told you would definitely happen following a no vote

[LJS]

So, unless I'm missing something this is please sign a petition asking for something I told you would definitely happen following a no vote

Yup, that's about it.

[Comfy Bean]

Gordon Brown

" a Tory Trap "

I remember how we discussed Dave being outside Downing St at 7am while Darling and Brown were asleep after convincing us to hand ourselves back in to Westminster. He played an ace linking the whole VOW crap to English votes.....leaving Brown and Labour to take the wrath of those who voted NO based on the fag packet vow.

" But Dave I`ve got a petition now...you said we could have the power " ?

In the 10 days since we came back we`ve had both parties promising to cut benefits and taking us to war. Best of both worlds indeed

[Comfy Bean]

No person's vote exists in isolation from all other people's votes.

It's the precise reason why people have learned to use their vote tactically in a FPTP system.

If Scotland does as you do, it will quite possibly cause the tories to be the largest party, which will cause you and the rest of Scotland to suffer a tory goivt when you'd rather have a govt of just about every other party (from what you've posted previously).

I'll remind you that you started off claiming that you were supporting yes to stop Scotland getting tory govts, and not to then end up helping Scotland to get a tory govt.

It's your choice, and your consequences.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Yes-ers cannot bring anything bad onto Scotland, that's a msm lie.

No, you're blind to the meaning of any words in any sentence that contains mention of the acronyms UKIP and SNP.

Only after you've actually understood the words are you in the place to reject your own made up bollocks.

PMSL. I*'ve not said that at all.

I've simply pointed out that your choice of vote can lead to a worse result than you want.

Yes-ers start off saying they want a better Scotland without the tories, and then end up thinking they should vote to help put the tories in charge.

If you can't see the insanity in that, that you'll be helping cause what you don't want to happen, there's no hope for Scotland. It's saying "vote stupid to make Scotland look stupid and suffer pain it needn't suffer".

"I'm voting yes because I'm sick of the tories, and if yes doesn't win I'm going to use my vote to help empower the tories."

Neil I`m starting to think that you are ashamed of your fellow countrymen and all the votes they will give to UKIP and the Tories. I might be wrong but I think Labour will lose the election because of them. I would understand why you could feel ashamed.

I fully expect that during the coming months, as the poll`s tighten, you will find a way to blame Alex Salmond and the people of Scotland.

Can I suggest you look into the SNP`s thoughts on immigration and Europe. You`ve tried the racist line on us before over the fact that we believe in free education for our young folks as an alternative to starting them out in the world up to their eye balls in debt.

Hopefully, in time, you will realise that votes for the Tories and UKIP will not come in big numbers from up here. We both know who will vote for them. The sooner you accept that and focus your energy on the people voting UKIP and the Tories then the sooner you will be able to get over any embarrassment that you feel.

EDIT : Another way to spin the numbers is that less than 50% voted to return to UK

Edited September 30, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

[LJS]

You've said you used to be a Labour voter, presumably because you supported their principles and aims. Now you're posting that you detest them and would never vote for them again. What's changed?

The only thing that's changed is that they had different opinion to you about indie. And, from what you've posted here over many months, it's you that have moved position and not them.

Just wanted to pick up on this point. I have written on more than one occasion about my joy when Labour finally triumphed over the Tories in 1997. Although even then I was aware they were not the Labour party I had grown up with. I have also written of my growing disappointment & disillusionment with them as it became increasingly clear they were little different to the Tories that has gone before. I had fallen out of love with them long before the Indy campaign. & yes I supported their principles...& still do. They don't.

Seeing them stand shoulder to shoulder with Tories to "reassure" us that the welfare state & the NHS were safe in Tory hands only underlined my distaste for them.

I take absolutely no pleasure in this. One of my hopes for an independent Scotland was that we might see a Scottish Labour party rediscover its conscience.

It so happens that in my constituency there is more chance of Rolf Harris being elected than a Tory. My vote will only influence which party will represent me against the Tories. If it looks like being in as any way close, my vote will almost certainly go to the SNP.

[eFestivals]

is this a joke?

Yep. It's Brown trying to wiggle back into Miliband's good books by finally noticing what Labour Party policy is and always has been.

Unfortunately, Scotland is demanding powers for itself, which means it's quite reasonable that it loses powers over others. Why the surprise*?

(* clue: powers for itself means others not having powers over you).

It's much like the words I read from one yes-er before the vote, who had suddenly realised that independence would mean the end of the block grant - and he was outraged. How dare the English take away Scotland's money?

Quite why Scottish people think the system should work to their advantage and to the disadvantage of others in the union I'm not sure.

[eFestivals]

Neil I`m starting to think that you are ashamed of your fellow countrymen and all the votes they will give to UKIP and the Tories. I might be wrong but I think Labour will lose the election because of them.

Just as with the indyref, it might help you be in the real world if you paid a little attention to reality now and then.

Every indication is that the tories will lose the general election and UKIP will be exceedingly lucky to get even 5 seats.

Tho of course, that depends on how people vote. If Scotland chooses to help make the tories the largest party - as seems to be Scotland's intention - then tory govt is what Scotland might get.

I would understand why you could feel ashamed.

the fact that other people are ignorant pricks brings no shame on me.

Were you shamed by Salmond's neoliberal agenda - that you voted to support?

How about the fraud allegations of the 45-ers, which says 'we wuz robbed'?

It's a stupid game that anyone can play, but not everyone does.

I fully expect that during the coming months, as the poll`s tighten, you will find a way to blame Alex Salmond and the people of Scotland.

If Scotland's choices help cause a tory govt, then blame for helping cause a tory govt will rightfully be Scotland's.

Pretending that there's not tory supporters only demonstrates a lack of reference to reality, and a lack of caring of the consequences back onto Scotland.

Can I suggest you look into the SNP`s thoughts on immigration and Europe. You`ve tried the racist line on us before over the fact that we believe in free education for our young folks as an alternative to starting them out in the world up to their eye balls in debt.

It's not the free education that makes that policy racist, it's the anti-English racism within it that makes it racist.

If England operated anti-Scottish racist policies of a similar style, I'm sure you'd have nothing to say about it.

Hopefully, in time, you will realise that votes for the Tories and UKIP will not come in big numbers from up here. We both know who will vote for them. The sooner you accept that and focus your energy on the people voting UKIP and the Tories then the sooner you will be able to get over any embarrassment that you feel.

I realise they won't get many votes up there.

But I also realise that the votes up there help define the make-up of the UK govt.It's a UK election. It's UK-wide opinion that decides the outcome.

Isn't it funny how the claims of Scottish exceptionalism and it's sophisticated electorate have already evaporated, to be replaced by self-destructive wilful denial of the consequences you might cause?

EDIT : Another way to spin the numbers is that less than 50% voted to return to UK

Yep - tho it only becomes of relevance if/when there's a grouping going around claiming to represent "the 55".

Edited October 1, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Just wanted to pick up on this point. I have written on more than one occasion about my joy when Labour finally triumphed over the Tories in 1997. Although even then I was aware they were not the Labour party I had grown up with. I have also written of my growing disappointment & disillusionment with them as it became increasingly clear they were little different to the Tories that has gone before. I had fallen out of love with them long before the Indy campaign. & yes I supported their principles...& still do. They don't.

Seeing them stand shoulder to shoulder with Tories to "reassure" us that the welfare state & the NHS were safe in Tory hands only underlined my distaste for them.

I take absolutely no pleasure in this. One of my hopes for an independent Scotland was that we might see a Scottish Labour party rediscover its conscience.

It so happens that in my constituency there is more chance of Rolf Harris being elected than a Tory. My vote will only influence which party will represent me against the Tories. If it looks like being in as any way close, my vote will almost certainly go to the SNP.

That's all very well, but nothing of Labour has changed for the worse in the last year or two, and you said (initially, at least) that you'd have supported devo max if it was on the ballot.

But now it's indy-or-bust. So indy-or-bust that you're quite happy to have the bust - and who cares about the impact? Not you. What was "I want to help the poor" has become "I don't give a fuck for the poor, indy is more important".

Indy by itself does nothing except split one territory into two territories. You seem to forget that - even tho one of your favourite indy lines was "this isn't about the SNP".

I can see the contradictions in your own words. If I point them out, you get angry at me for pointing them out, and aren't able to rationalise your thoughts into something more consistent and sensible and so don't bother trying.

My vote will only influence which party will represent me against the Tories.

You're just so so wrong.

Your vote also helps decide which is the largest party which will form the govt.

Wilful rejection of the facts does not make your choice the smart one.

Edited October 1, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

BTW, LJS, I do understand your dilemma. I have the same problem in my own constituency in England - you know, where we're all tory scum that went to Eton but where there's also more chance of Rolf Harris being elected than a Tory.

Funnily enough, the tories have *LESS* support here than they do in Scotland. From the English. Fancy that, eh?

I've yet to decide how i'll use my vote, but if I vote something other than Labour and that causes the LibDems to win again in my constituency and Labour to not be the largest party nationally, I won't be pretending that my own vote hasn't helped to cause a tory govt.

[Comfy Bean]

Did everyone see that the " leak " about the £450mill cut to NHS funding in Scotland turned out not to be true. Much to our astonishment the BBC and all the press ran with this non story for a couple of days. So off the top of my head, there is no guarantee of extra powers, there was no plan to cut £450 mill from the NHS, the Sun did not come out for YES, there was no social unrest ( apart from the jack clad unionists in George Sq.), there will never be a Lord Salmond, Tesco never said prices would go up because of a YES vote, there are decades of oil and gas left and Gordon Brown is a back bench MP for the opposition and has feck all say over govt policy. Any more for any more ?

Sadly, a whole lot of people are still influenced by a glance through the front pages of the Record and the headlines on Reporting Scotland. Not to mention all that YOUR job, mortgage, pension.

I am over it ( honest ) but it makes you sad when you see Milliband and Balls speeches ( the bits they remembered ) and now the Tories are not only going to freeze peoples benefits but pay benefits on pre-paid cards dictating what on and where the money can be spent. Better together......

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/health-secretary-rejects-nhs-budget-cuts-claim-as-a-myth.25421574

[LJS]

BTW, LJS, I do understand your dilemma. I have the same problem in my own constituency in England - you know, where we're all tory scum that went to Eton but where there's also more chance of Rolf Harris being elected than a Tory.

Funnily enough, the tories have *LESS* support here than they do in Scotland. From the English. Fancy that, eh?

I've yet to decide how i'll use my vote, but if I vote something other than Labour and that causes the LibDems to win again in my constituency and Labour to not be the largest party nationally, I won't be pretending that my own vote hasn't helped to cause a tory govt.

Hate to agree with you Neil but the lack of anything approaching a realistic left wing option is enormously frustrating. I would argue we are a bit better off in Scotland with the SNP being marginally to the left of Labour ( I know you disagree - but I am only claiming them to be "marginally " to the left) The LibDems went through a little phase of being a bit edgy but they have blown that. It is massively frustrating to be faced with an effective choice between blue shite, red shite or yellow shite.

Maybe we all underestimate the power of the media

I have no idea how accurate these figures are but they would go some way to explaining UKips rise.

I never really commented on your stuff about PR - mainly because I totally agree with you (which is no fun)

I have no doubt FPTP has contributed greatly to the rise in popular support for independence- if we were sending 6-10 Tory MP's to Westminster, the democratic deficit argument would be less persuasive.

[LJS]

That's all very well, but nothing of Labour has changed for the worse in the last year or two, and you said (initially, at least) that you'd have supported devo max if it was on the ballot.

Supporting devo max does not in any way indicate support for the Labour Party

But now it's indy-or-bust. So indy-or-bust that you're quite happy to have the bust - and who cares about the impact? Not you. What was "I want to help the poor" has become "I don't give a fuck for the poor, indy is more important".

That is entirely your interpretation of what independence would have meant . As I said the stark yes/no choice forced me to examine Independence as an option more seriously than I had previously done - I came to the conclusion that Independence provided the best opportunity to help the poor. Events since the "No" vote have done nothing to persuade me I was wrong. I take mild offence that you could in any way link me with the phrase "I don't give a fuck for the poor, indy is more important"

At no time have I ever indicated any such indifference. I know this is a phrase you would never use Neil but i could have been wrong, because the truth is none of us (including you) know what the end result of independence would have been. It is now clear after the Tory conference that it is business as usual in the UK - & the words in the famous vow "the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing our resources equitably across all four nations" are just bollocks.

Indy by itself does nothing except split one territory into two territories. You seem to forget that - even tho one of your favourite indy lines was "this isn't about the SNP".

Yup, you're right Neil, as I said countless times, Independence would have come with no guarantees ... only opportunities & possibilities - despite countless invitations no one has been able to persuade me there is any realistic chance of things changing in the UK as it currently exists & pretty much everything post indyref has confirmed this.

I can see the contradictions in your own words. If I point them out, you get angry at me for pointing them out, and aren't able to rationalise your thoughts into something more consistent and sensible and so don't bother trying.

Well Neil , I did sometimes get a bit fed up with your zealotry, your presenting opinions & projections as facts, your constant use of sowhatyoursayingizzery, So please accept my apologies if I did not repeatedly respond to the same points again & again.

You're just so so wrong.

Your vote also helps decide which is the largest party which will form the govt.

Wilful rejection of the facts does not make your choice the smart one.

I am not rejecting facts - I know how the UK electoral system works. I am only explaining my principled reasons for not voting for the Labour party. They have lost my respect. I certainly do not wish to see another Tory government but, in my view, if a Labour government is better the difference is so marginal as to be irrelevant. I would prefer to withhold my vote from them in the hope that they might someday rediscover why the fuck they actually exist.

[LJS]

Yep. It's Brown trying to wiggle back into Miliband's good books by finally noticing what Labour Party policy is and always has been.

Unfortunately, Scotland is demanding powers for itself, which means it's quite reasonable that it loses powers over others. Why the surprise*?

(* clue: powers for itself means others not having powers over you).

It's much like the words I read from one yes-er before the vote, who had suddenly realised that independence would mean the end of the block grant - and he was outraged. How dare the English take away Scotland's money?

Quite why Scottish people think the system should work to their advantage and to the disadvantage of others in the union I'm not sure.

Yeah, you might think that

But ... quoting from the famous vow ..."And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament."

kind of implies we won't lose out doesn't it?

Maybe if they hadn't cooked it up in a blind panic, they might have done better!!!

[eFestivals]

Did everyone see that the " leak " about the £450mill cut to NHS funding in Scotland turned out not to be true. Much to our astonishment the BBC and all the press ran with this non story for a couple of days.

Oh c'mon .... if any other party had had a confidential document leaked that explicitly stated what that leaked document said, you wouldn't accept a politicians denial as a true fact that proved the leak wrong.

Exposing the bollocks that all politicians speak requires a consistent approach to the words of all politicians. Giving any party - even one you support in principle - a free pass over their claims as you're doing here only gives them licence to fuck you over.

So off the top of my head, there is no guarantee of extra powers, there was no plan to cut £450 mill from the NHS, the Sun did not come out for YES, there was no social unrest ( apart from the jack clad unionists in George Sq.), there will never be a Lord Salmond, Tesco never said prices would go up because of a YES vote, there are decades of oil and gas left and Gordon Brown is a back bench MP for the opposition and has feck all say over govt policy. Any more for any more ?

And there was no CU from indie, there was no EU from indie, there was no never-ending oil from indie, there was no richer Scotland from indie, there was no Scottish exceptionalism from indie, there is a massive deficit to be dealt with by indie (and even by no-indie), and there was no sustained civic nationalism from indie. Any more for any more?

We can argue over which of those may or may not be true, but anyone with half a brain should be realising that all politicians lie to try and buy your vote.

You get the win by negotiating your own way thru the claims and forming a view for yourself.

But by default, anyone sucking up all the claims from just one direction is the biggest fool.

Sadly, a whole lot of people are still influenced by a glance through the front pages of the Record and the headlines on Reporting Scotland. Not to mention all that YOUR job, mortgage, pension. I am over it ( honest ) but it makes you sad when you see Milliband and Balls speeches ( the bits they remembered )

I've little real idea if I agree with any plans of Miliband and Balls, but what I do agree with is that there is a deficit that has to be dealt with and cannot be ignored.

That is one reality from which no party can escape, no matter where that party places its arses and no matter what boundaries that party might work to.

The party pretending differently is the liar.

There's some food for thought there.

and now the Tories are not only going to freeze peoples benefits but pay benefits on pre-paid cards dictating what on and where the money can be spent. Better together......

I see you've been influenced by a glance through the front pages.

While you might have read that, you clearly stopped reading before getting to the detail. It's no policy I support, but the policy is not quite what you state.

[eFestivals]

Hate to agree with you Neil but the lack of anything approaching a realistic left wing option is enormously frustrating. I would argue we are a bit better off in Scotland with the SNP being marginally to the left of Labour ( I know you disagree - but I am only claiming them to be "marginally " to the left) The LibDems went through a little phase of being a bit edgy but they have blown that. It is massively frustrating to be faced with an effective choice between blue shite, red shite or yellow shite.

Whether or not the SNP are to the left or Labour or not, for Westminster voting SNP runs the big risk of causing yourself to have a tory govt.

You really need to wake up to that one, rather than try to deflect the consequences of what you might chose to do onto others. As I said, if my own choice of vote helps bring that about then I won't be pretending I played no part in it.

Maybe we all underestimate the power of the media

I have no idea how accurate these figures are but they would go some way to explaining UKips rise.

I would say that what we really underestimate is people's deliberate choice to be stupid.

To use an example from this thread (sorry comfy ): comfy was spouting some stuff in the indy debate which he admitted has no factual source but was choosing to believe anyway. Something put those things in his mind, but only he chose to take them as true.

Was the sort of stupidity you've flagged up as being the fault of the media absent from the indyref campaign on the yes side*? I point you at the surveys which showed a massive belief by yes-ers in CU happening, and at massive belief by yes-ers at instant EU membership happening, and a massive belief by yes-ers in new 'hidden' oil finds - where the only evidence of substance (explicit statements by those in control of the relevant entities, plus supporting statements from a large majority of those who work in those areas) said not.

(* I'm not pretending there wasn't the same around different issues from the no side, btw)

This is much the same point as I just addressed in my last post, in reply to comfy. We shouldn't take the word of politicians, and we shouldn't believe the word of the media.

Instead we need to each examine the issues from all angles and with all points of view, and come to a properly considered view removed from our own dogmatic beliefs - rather than suck up what those with power and influence would rather we believed.

I have no doubt FPTP has contributed greatly to the rise in popular support for independence- if we were sending 6-10 Tory MP's to Westminster, the democratic deficit argument would be less persuasive.

That's fair enough.

But what i'm trying to flag up to you is that the effects of FPTP go further than just which representatives Scotland might return. Power comes not only via your representatives, by via the whole of the representatives.

If Scotland returns SNP MPs, that makes the likelihood of a tory govt greater, no matter which way the SNP might lean politically and which party they might line-up behind for a coalition in Westminster (and don't be so foolish as to think they would never stand behind the tories!).

Scotland is part of the union - and (I can now say this) by it's own sovereign choice. Voting in a way that pretends there is no union is daft, *particularly* when the risk of that choice can be so easily identified.

[LJS]

Guys... Its over... You lost

Back in your boxes for another 30 years

The box isnae big enough, Barry!

[LJS]

Neil, of course how I vote has consequences. But the consequence that concerns me if I & millions of Scots vote Labour is that we are telling ed & co that they can continue to take their core support for granted whilst drifting further & further to the right in pursuit of the votes of folk in middle England.

[eFestivals]