The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

You'll be waiting a long time I suspect. It took LJS three months to attempt an answer to the question "what is a currency?"

I've yet to see him even accept that the infrastructure projects that he likes to believe Scotland pays for (see just above) are excluded from the Scottish finances as published by Alex - despite there being a clear statement that they are on the Scottish Govts own website.

the Yes voting scots take pride in their country to extreme levels. It's strange to observe. They will never ever say a bad word about scotland.

It wasnt always like this. It can only be put down to brainwashing by the yes campaign. They are like scientologists.

They are just in denial of everything now. It is their default setting to reject every single thing that suggests scotland is anything other than perfect as lies.

To deny the power and influence of london is utterly bonkers.

The fact their fellow countrymen resoundingly rejected their Yes-dogma has clearly made them go slightly barmy. It is a curious phenomenon.

Edited October 24, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

To deny the power and influence of london is utterly bonkers.

It is .... tho part of what's mixed up in the arguments around it is that it didn't have such strong power and influence in the past.

Whether it's simple resentment or a desire to return to how things were in the mythical-glorious past I'm not sure, but there's definitely a non-acceptance by many of its status now.

I've no problem with policies which try to redistribute London's power and influence around the country, but devolution is not how that's going to happen - because London will pull up the same walls as others want to do and claim its wealth as all its own.

[russycarps]

It is .... tho part of what's mixed up in the arguments around it is that it didn't have such strong power and influence in the past.

Whether it's simple resentment or a desire to return to how things were in the mythical-glorious past I'm not sure, but there's definitely a non-acceptance by many of its status now.

I've no problem with policies which try to redistribute London's power and influence around the country, but devolution is not how that's going to happen - because London will pull up the same walls as others want to do and claim its wealth as all its own.

I resent its power and I live here! It means I can never move back up north until my working life is over.

I dont know how the power it wields can be redistributed. I think it is well out of th control of any politicians now. The only thing that will level out the UK is a catastrophic global event, such as massive economic collapse (ie the collapse of fiat currency) or WW3, in my opinion.

[eFestivals]

I dont know how the power it wields can be redistributed. I think it is well out of th control of any politicians now.

I'd say that 'the London problem' is one of the few bigger problems that is still within the control of politicians to address. It's stuff like the wage differentials between the highest paid and lowest paid that I can't see a political answer to.

The first step to addressing it is, like for so many other things, a govt elected by PR. Once people's votes have a meaningful purpose, people will see the purpose in voting, which will start the process of ending the London obsession that our political processes currently have.

What won't bring about that change is the redistribution of power to the regions - cos that will only ensure that London has the same regional powers with which it will demand it keeps its own economic power within its own region, rather than the money earned there being redistributed to prop up other regions.

[LondonTom]

Really? I'm well aware shoreditch used to be poor hence the rhyme but from memory I'd say it was pretty gentrified by 2010.

Its still a bit half and half around there reallly (less so Shoreditch itself I guess but the general area). One road can be right posh, you turn onto the next one and its council/"poor" again. Quite odd really!

[eFestivals]

One road can be right posh, you turn onto the next one and its council/"poor" again. Quite odd really!

one of the bits I've walked thru around there has cropped up a few times over the years on TV, when talking about Victorian slum clearances .... 150 years later, it needs to happen again.

Mind you, if it did, I'm sure the same would happen now as happened back then - those who were kicked out of their houses weren't the ones who got to move (back) into the area after improvement.

[LondonTom]

one of the bits I've walked thru around there has cropped up a few times over the years on TV, when talking about Victorian slum clearances .... 150 years later, it needs to happen again.

Mind you, if it did, I'm sure the same would happen now as happened back then - those who were kicked out of their houses weren't the ones who got to move (back) into the area after improvement.

Pretty much happening in most of East London (well at least Newham) now already! The only time that hasn't happened is a limited number of flats in the Athletes village were given to the Olympic Host Boroughs but those were extra housing as most of that was industrial/railway land.

"Regeneration" indeed.

[LJS]

the Yes voting scots take pride in their country to extreme levels. It's strange to observe. They will never ever say a bad word about scotland.

Perhaps just a wee bit of a sweeping generalisation there, Russy? I have commented a number of times on Scotland's problem with sectarianism and while I have some pride in my country - I have always been clear that this has nothing to do with us being "better" than anyone else.

It wasnt always like this. It can only be put down to brainwashing by the yes campaign. They are like scientologists.

They are just in denial of everything now. It is their default setting to reject every single thing that suggests scotland is anything other than perfect as lies.

To deny the power and influence of london is utterly bonkers.

I agree, and I am not aware of anyone seriously denying it... that doesn't mean it's right though, does it?

The fact their fellow countrymen resoundingly rejected their Yes-dogma has clearly made them go slightly barmy. It is a curious phenomenon.

Yeah right!

[LJS]

You'll be waiting a long time I suspect. It took LJS three months to attempt an answer to the question "what is a currency?"

Sorry, for the delay (which was in fact in your imagination, I assumed you probably had a dictionary. I'll worry a wee bit more about childish allegations like this when you learn to distinguish between fact & opinion/prediction.

I've yet to see him even accept that the infrastructure projects that he likes to believe Scotland pays for (see just above) are excluded from the Scottish finances as published by Alex - despite there being a clear statement that they are on the Scottish Govts own website.

Ooh! I think infrastructure spending is accounted for somewhat differently from "running cost" expenditure but I'm pretty sure that, at the end of the day, it all comes out of UK wide taxation revenues. And of course our investment in London will benefit who? Businesses who operate in London. On top of that, the running costs of government departments are paid for by us all but where are most of the civil servants? - including the highest paid ones?

All I am really saying is that it is pretty difficult to "unpick" where money is spent from where it is raised in a lot of cases. I also think the concentration of so much power & money in one small area of the country is unhealthy ... perhaps we should move the House of commons to Wigan & the House of Lords to Dundee or Newport!

Edited October 24, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

...so wee Johan Lamont has resigned, complaining about interference from London.

Hmmm, wonder how she could have put a stop to that once & for all

Just saying.

[eFestivals]

Edited October 25, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

...so wee Johan Lamont has resigned, complaining about interference from London.

Hmmm, wonder how she could have put a stop to that once & for all

Just saying.

And this is why devolution doesn't work|: you can't faithfully serve two masters.

[atomised]

I followed a few yes voters on vote night on Twitter. I still see them pop up on my feed and it remains the case they've taken defeat badly. Ive objected to what some have said quite blatantly about how older people in scotland.shouldn't have had a vote

[LJS]

I followed a few yes voters on vote night on Twitter. I still see them pop up on my feed and it remains the case they've taken defeat badly. Ive objected to what some have said quite blatantly about how older people in scotland.shouldn't have had a vote

I don't doubt you for a minute but I assume you are not taking a few comments on twitter as in any way representative of the mood of Yes voters.

There is much serious discussion going on around where best to channel our energies after the referendum and it does not centre round bitterness & recrimination.

There is a considerable body of opinion which believes as i do that we have to engage constructively within the UK as it presently exists. That doesn't mean we abandon the aspiration for independence, but that we recognise its not coming in the immediate future.

[atomised]

No, I certainly didn't assume it to be representative. I think it's a vocal minority who think in that way. I'd worry that comments like .' The no voters will get what they deserve'. Would have the potential to harm the cause were they more widespread.

Your opinion of constructive engagement s far more sensible and I would imagine makes up the majority

[eFestivals]

No, I certainly didn't assume it to be representative. I think it's a vocal minority who think in that way. I'd worry that comments like .' The no voters will get what they deserve'. Would have the potential to harm the cause were they more widespread.

Your opinion of constructive engagement s far more sensible and I would imagine makes up the majority

While I don't doubt there's a positive side, the types who took it badly are the same types who helped ensure that yes didn't win. They'll be the same types who were happy to throw around lines such as "no voters only voted no through fear", and that no voters were 'quislings'.

And it's only a short skip and jump from there to being one of those who were immune to facts, and who had blind-faith belief in all of the more unlikely Alex-claims - of CU, instant EU entry, the banks not heading south, never-ending oil wealth, and jam from the sky.

And, unfortunately, it wasn't a minority of yes-ers who had that blind-faith in Alex, as polling of what yes-voters and no-voters thought got to show.

There's a decent case to be made for indie, but so little of that decent case was on show during the campaign.

[Comfy Bean]

So....anyone fancy a go at being the leader of the Scottish Labour Party ?

Salmond has now seen off 4 ( four ) of their " leaders " during his term as FM and no-one seems to want the job !

As I think was said before on here, the " winners " of the Referendum are an absolute shambles while the SNP have a new leader smoothly lined up and a big increase in members. Whatever side you are on it is quite bizarre the mess Labour are in up here. I think the " YES " folks on here all said that Independence could see a return of a " real " Labour Party. Something we probably all want. Perhaps this could still happen as they look like they are at the end of the road but can they / will they take a different path than their Westminster masters. Don`t think any of what is going on up here reflects well on Milliband`s leadership as we head for the GE. As I`ve said before, in the heat of battle Dave will have him

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29784568

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29770207

Edited October 27, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[eFestivals]

Salmond has now seen off 4 ( four ) of their " leaders " during his term as FM and no-one seems to want the job !

a situation mirrored within his own party where Salmond had to come back and 'save' them cos no one wanted the job.

As I think was said before on here, the " winners " of the Referendum are an absolute shambles while the SNP have a new leader smoothly lined up and a big increase in members.

you missed the bit where the people of Scotland told Alex and co to GTF.

Whatever side you are on it is quite bizarre the mess Labour are in up here.

PMSL ... and of course there's nothing bizarre in the attitudes of the very many so-called left-leaners in Scotland, which brought this about.

Just think: if all those who've just joined the SNP had instead joined the SLP a few years ago, it would be a different party.

Instead, these 'activists' have decided that politics is decided for them by others. THAT'S where Scottish politics has fucked up, via its people and not via its parties.

Until such time as yes-ers can call out the SNP on policy, nothing changes and the mass delusions continue on with the SNP much the same as they did before that.

I think the " YES " folks on here all said that Independence could see a return of a " real " Labour Party. Something we probably all want.

something that yes-ers wanted so much that they wouldn't join and influence that party, instead transferring their allegiance to another that supports what they claim to support even less.

I'm wetting myself at the comments surrounding Labour right now. The yes nutters (I'm talking the nutters, not everyone who voted yes) are condemning Labour on the fact that they weren't for yes - as tho there's some inalterable sense and purpose to yes that cannot be attained by any other view.

Until those yes-ers will actually address the real consequences of yes instead of living in fantasyland, it's the yes-ers who are lacking that sense and purpose.

Perhaps this could still happen as they look like they are at the end of the road but can they / will they take a different path than their Westminster masters.

The Westminster masters you should be caring about are the masters who you'll be causing to rule over you, the very masters who you say you reject but who you'll enable.

But you just pretend that's nothing to do with you, when your votes are part of the whole process.

Don`t think any of what is going on up here reflects well on Milliband`s leadership as we head for the GE. As I`ve said before, in the heat of battle Dave will have him

If that's the case, then it will be Scotland that is the most likely cause of that. But you keep on pretending it's nowt to do with you.

I imagine yes-ers to have a club in their hand with which they beat themselves over the head and keep on going 'owww', while also pretending that it doesn't hurt.

[eFestivals]

A referendum in favour of leaving the European Union would need to have the clear support of the UK nations, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has insisted.

She said England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should each deliver a majority vote to make withdrawal legal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29805045

Keep taking the fruitcake Nicola.

Or perhaps just accept the vote of the people of Scotland and the UK's constitution?

But hey, any opportunity to try and widen the divide.

[eFestivals]

PS: ... if major constitutional change requires a vote from all UK 'nations', then where was the vote for the three other nations about Scottish indy?

Perhaps it's Dundee cake she's been taking.

[russycarps]

ha ha I was just coming here to post "Nicola Sturgeon is talking bollocks again" but you've beaten me to it.

Even the Yes'ers must be cringing for her here.

Edited October 29, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

Even the Yes'ers must be cringing for her here.

they're not, according to the comments I've just read under the BBC's report of this.

[LJS]

PS: ... if major constitutional change requires a vote from all UK 'nations', then where was the vote for the three other nations about Scottish indy?

Perhaps it's Dundee cake she's been taking.

Good to see you moving on from Alex Salmond!

[eFestivals]

Good to see you moving on from Alex Salmond!

Shame it's still the same nuttiness from the SNP no matter who the leader is.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU, but Sturgeon is being insane here. Would she have accepted the rest of the UK voting on whether Scotland should be independent, which her logic about an EU vote says she would have?

I've just been reading nutty nats saying that Scotland gets the decision that England makes. Maths is not the strong point of those nutty nats.

Is logic and consistency something you're able to do better than Nicola, LJS? If so, please do tell us which way it is: do the English get to decide if Scotland gets to be independent, or does Scotland accept that an EU referendum is decided by the whole-UK population?

Edited October 29, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Even the Yes'ers must be cringing for her here.

further to my previous words to this, i've now read some more of the comments and there's quite a few people claiming to be SNP voters previously, but saying they now won't vote SNP again.

Of course, they might be telling porkies - but to go with that would be a bit of a cop-out. I read plenty of comments during the indyref by people who were voting yes but did not want iScotland to be a part of the EU; for some of them, it was getting out of the EU which was driving their vote for indy.