The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

If Scotland was to return 50 SNP MPs, Scotland will have chosen to impose the result from everywhere else on itself, because the SNP will not be the UK govt...............

But if Scotland thinks punching itself in the face is the smart thing to do, go ahead. The wounds will bleed for five very long years. At least!

Oh Neil

You need to stop reading all these comments under articles that you go on about.

50 ??????? No chance

[Comfy Bean]

Scots are very brave when sat in their armchairs.

Your just sore about losing your bet Russy

[eFestivals]

[Comfy Bean]

I found this helpful graphic that demonstrates Neil`s point that Scotland will be voting in a Tory Govt. You can use the colors to help understand his point...........good luck with that

[eFestivals]

Oh Neil

You need to stop reading all these comments under articles that you go on about.

50 ??????? No chance

I didn't say they would. I was using a large number to clearly illustrate the effect that a large number of SNP MPs would have.

I'm aware that things are complicated and in some places Labour have a mighty big lead that would need to be overturned.

Yet it remains the case that if Scotland votes SNP in large numbers, it's likely to impose a tory govt onto itself when a difference choice would mean being tory-free.

But hey, I know you yes-ers all want a tory govt anyway, you're just too chicken to actually say it.

[Comfy Bean]

Neil, whilst I agree with your point in principle in that Scotland's vote impacts which government we get.

To say that "England gets the govt that Scotland votes for" is pushing the logic a bit far. There is no intent on the Scots to vote for a Tory govt and the SNP votes are in no way a push for the Tories.

The effect might be that the Tories get in as a result of it, but you're laying the blame on a bit thick. Surely it's more to blame more of the people who actually voted Tory as a first pass. Or even those who are left voting Libdem.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This.

[LJS]

the first chance at forming a govt gets made by the biggest party, and you're completely ignoring the fact that what Scotland does gets to help decide who is the biggest party.

And you are completely ignoring elementary arithmetic.

[eFestivals]

I found this helpful graphic that demonstrates Neil`s point that Scotland will be voting in a Tory Govt. You can use the colors to help understand his point...........good luck with that

that narrative is flawed because 'Scotland' doesn't get a vote.

Each individual in the UK gets a vote, and their votes use a defined system to create the UK-common result.

And this is a system that sovereign Scotland voted to fully accept. Get used to it, or pay a heavy price for your own stupidity.

[Comfy Bean]

I didn't say they would. I was using a large number to clearly illustrate the effect that a large number of SNP MPs would have.

I'm aware that things are complicated and in some places Labour have a mighty big lead that would need to be overturned.

Yet it remains the case that if Scotland votes SNP in large numbers, it's likely to impose a tory govt onto itself when a difference choice would mean being tory-free.

But hey, I know you yes-ers all want a tory govt anyway, you're just too chicken to actually say it.

And you saying it ( regularly ) doesn`t make it true mate

[eFestivals]

And you are completely ignoring elementary arithmetic.

what, that Scotland can stop the tories being the biggest party, and so avoid Scotland having a tory govt, and Scotland perhaps being outside the EU, too? That arithmetic?

Your arithmetic has you punching yourself in the face.

But hey, it's clear what's going on. People like you want a tory govt.

[Comfy Bean]

that narrative is flawed because 'Scotland' doesn't get a vote.

Each individual in the UK gets a vote, and their votes use a defined system to create the UK-common result.

And this is a system that sovereign Scotland voted to fully accept. Get used to it, or pay a heavy price for your own stupidity.

^^^^ Didn`t look at the color graph thingy

[eFestivals]

And you saying it ( regularly ) doesn`t make it true mate

then don't make it happen. Cos you will if that poll is true.

</me sits back and waits to hear the emu-act yet again....>

[eFestivals]

^^^^ Didn`t look at the color graph thingy

^^^^ doesn't understand the electoral system, or accept that others within the electorate have a right to vote different to them and to influence the overall result.

[Comfy Bean]

then don't make it happen. Cos you will if that poll is true.

</me sits back and waits to hear the emu-act yet again....>

^^^^ doesn't understand the electoral system, or accept that others within the electorate have a right to vote different to them and to influence the overall result.

I fully understand the system and both accept and respect the right of others to make a different choice with their vote than I do. I just disagree with you but I know how this works..... You have made your mind up and your wagons are circled. My view is that the "blame" for this, the next, and any other Tory Govt lies with the people who vote for the Tories, as they are entitled to do whether I agree with them or not ( I don`t ). It just so happens that the majority of these people live in England and very few, relatively, live in Scotland. You should focus your attention on the people who actually vote Tory imo.

Edited November 2, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

that narrative is flawed because 'Scotland' doesn't get a vote.

Each individual in the UK gets a vote, and their votes use a defined system to create the UK-common result.

And this is a system that sovereign Scotland voted to fully accept. Get used to it, or pay a heavy price for your own stupidity.

so the whole discussion we have been having over the past coup;le of pages is complete bollocks...including your contributions

[zahidf]

Scotland can only keep their chip on their shoulder with a Tory Govt. Blaming Labour for the NO result ( When of course the electorate voted for NO) is absolutely bizzarre.

[LJS]

what, that Scotland can stop the tories being the biggest party, and so avoid Scotland having a tory govt, and Scotland perhaps being outside the EU, too? That arithmetic?

Your arithmetic has you punching yourself in the face.

But hey, it's clear what's going on. People like you want a tory govt.

If the tories are the biggest party (due to us Scots failing in our duty to save you poor Englishers from the evil Cameroids) but don't have an overall majority (even with the the Kipterions) do you think there is the slightest chance they will get an In/Oot referenduym through parliament? Who's going to join them i the Yes lobby for that bill? I suppose the Ulster Unionists might ( i haven't sstudied their European Policies closely but if there is not enough of them then it simply isn't going to happen.) Which takes us back to the simple arithmetic that for this to happen the Tory/kip alliance will need over 50% of MP's to deliver & Scotland will in all probability contribute approximately fuck all to that.

It's not complicated. A majority Tory government or tory/ukip coalition will be in no way the the responsibility of the electors of Scotland. But despite this we will suffer for it - which is exactly why we should be an independent country (in my opinion)

& yeah Neil, you are right, I'd love a Tory government - well spotted

[Comfy Bean]

Scotland can only keep their chip on their shoulder with a Tory Govt. Blaming Labour for the NO result ( When of course the electorate voted for NO) is absolutely bizzarre.

Who`s blaming Labour for the NO result ? I`m certainly not. Anyone ?

With 24 hours to go, nobody knew for sure how it was going to go. If anything we should be thanking Labour !

[Comfy Bean]

Thought this was of interest. Few numbers summarised from this weeks polls plus some stuff on " trust " ratings and background on Jim Murphy who`s favorite to be the next Labour Leader up here. Don`t imagine he will get the Union vote as he is a bit far right as far as I can gather.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/labour-business-as-usual-while-going-out-of-business.25731557

[eFestivals]

I fully understand the system and both accept and respect the right of others to make a different choice with their vote than I do. I just disagree with you but I know how this works..... You have made your mind up and your wagons are circled. My view is that the "blame" for this, the next, and any other Tory Govt lies with the people who vote for the Tories, as they are entitled to do whether I agree with them or not ( I don`t ).

I agree, it's their blame for their choice. Just as it's your blame for your choice.

You know, the choice that would have worse effects back on you than if you made a different choice.

You are NOT choosing a single representative, you are choosing the make-up of the govt that will rule over you.

You can choose SNP and get tory, or you can choose Labour and get Labour.

If you choose to live under a tory govt, you have chosen to live under a tory govt.

And you'll have done that either because you want it, or because you like to punch yourself in the face.

You should focus your attention on the people who actually vote Tory imo.

Why? They're voting to get the result they 100% want, unlike you.

You'll voting to show you won't be messed around, and by doing so mess yourself around. Can you spot the flaw to your logic there?

If you're punching yourself in the face, don't be so fucking stupid. If you're voting as you are cos you want the tories, be brave enough to say it.

[eFestivals]

so the whole discussion we have been having over the past coup;le of pages is complete bollocks...including your contributions

If you want your vote to cause greater austerity, tax cuts for the richest, and perhaps Scotland out of the EU, you're dead right.

If you want lesser austerity, no tax cuts for the richest, and a guaranteed place for Scotland within the EU, turn your brain on and act to make it happen.

[eFestivals]

If the tories are the biggest party (due to us Scots failing in our duty to save you poor Englishers from the evil Cameroids) but don't have an overall majority (even with the the Kipterions) do you think there is the slightest chance they will get an In/Oot referenduym through parliament? Who's going to join them i the Yes lobby for that bill? I suppose the Ulster Unionists might ( i haven't sstudied their European Policies closely but if there is not enough of them then it simply isn't going to happen.) Which takes us back to the simple arithmetic that for this to happen the Tory/kip alliance will need over 50% of MP's to deliver & Scotland will in all probability contribute approximately fuck all to that.

Yeah, cos the SNP won't enable a bill like that, guaranteed, via which they believe they can then demand another referendum....?

It's not complicated. A majority Tory government or tory/ukip coalition will be in no way the the responsibility of the electors of Scotland. But despite this we will suffer for it - which is exactly why we should be an independent country (in my opinion)

& yeah Neil, you are right, I'd love a Tory government - well spotted

so you'll vote to make yourself suffer (which is punching yourself in the face) because you want to be an independent.

Yep, I'd already spotted that.

You've said it. You want a tory govt.

Edited November 3, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Who`s blaming Labour for the NO result ? I`m certainly not. Anyone ?

[

all of the people whose hatred against Labour has been created because they backed no in the indy ref?

LJS certainly is. He's posted to say so many times here, and if you care to look in the places where Scottish people voice their opinions, you'll see that hundreds of thousands of other Scots are thinking the same.

[eFestivals]

Thought this was of interest. Few numbers summarised from this weeks polls plus some stuff on " trust " ratings and background on Jim Murphy who`s favorite to be the next Labour Leader up here. Don`t imagine he will get the Union vote as he is a bit far right as far as I can gather.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/labour-business-as-usual-while-going-out-of-business.25731557

Just think ... if all of the people who've joined the SNP but who say they don't support their policies (or was it really always about the SNP, and you yes-ers were lying? ) had joined the Labour Party instead whose principles they claim to support, guess what those people would be doing now..?

Or is that a bit too clever for those peeps to get?

[eFestivals]

If Scots don't want to take any responsibility for th3e govt they'll help to create, let's try this from another angle....

Which will be better for Scotland? A tory govt, or a Labour govt?