The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I'm loving the fact that ego Alex is still planning to run the SNP.

What will glove-puppet Nicola do?

[LJS]

Yeah, cos the SNP won't enable a bill like that, guaranteed, via which they believe they can then demand another referendum....?

so you'll vote to make yourself suffer (which is punching yourself in the face) because you want to be an independent.

Yep, I'd already spotted that.

You've said it. You want a tory govt.

You really are funny

[eFestivals]

You really are funny

as funny as Scotland ruled by the tories at Scotland's behest?

Scotland could make a different choice, but it looks like its choice is to be ruled by the tories.

But who cares about damage to Scotland and to real people's lives? If it helps bring about indy, it's all worth it, yeah?

BTW, you do know that indie comes complete without the Barnett formula, don't you? It's just that Scotland is a bit too attached to it, what with wanting full fiscal autonomy plus the Barnet formula.

[LJS]

[

all of the people whose hatred against Labour has been created because they backed no in the indy ref?

LJS certainly is. He's posted to say so many times here, and if you care to look in the places where Scottish people voice their opinions, you'll see that hundreds of thousands of other Scots are thinking the same.

This is complete bollocks. I have written at length of my disillusionment (not hatred) with the Labour party which has nothing to do with their stance on independence ...but don't let the facts get in the way of your argument! Edited November 3, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

This is complete bollocks. I have written at length of my disillusionment (not hatred) with the Labour party which has nothing to do with their stance on independence ...but don't let the facts get in the way of your argument!

and yet you were a Labour voter when you entered this thread, and now you're an anything-but-Labour voter.

The only thing that's different with Labour over that time is your attitude towards it. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.

-----

But anyway, please do tell me what will be so great and better for Scotland within the UK if you have a tory govt ruling over you instead of the Labour govt you might otherwise have via different choices...?

The great and better thing you'll have is a bruised face, from where you've punched yourself.

But that's not anything to do with it really, I know. It's the divisions you hope to create via the pain caused to real Scottish people that you're wanting elected.

[russycarps]

But who cares about damage to Scotland and to real people's lives? If it helps bring about indy, it's all worth it, yeah?

This is the crux of the matter.

The Yes voters are now so consumed by the independence dream that absolutely nothing else at all matters.

They are like a fanatical, self-flagellating cult. They actually want the pain the tories will bring, just to prove a point and to force another vote.

It's pathetic really, and extremely sad for the millions of people who will suffer.

Edited November 3, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

This is the crux of the matter.

The Yes voters are now so consumed by the independence dream that absolutely nothing else at all matters.

They are like a fanatical, self-flagellating cult. They actually want the pain the tories will bring, just to prove a point and to force another vote.

It's pathetic really, and extremely sad for the millions of people who will suffer.

it's Quebec, playing itself out perfectly.

If the likes of LJS bothers to do the research they can save themselves some bother, but research and consideration of what is found is the very thing they won't do.

[russycarps]

it's Quebec, playing itself out perfectly.

If the likes of LJS bothers to do the research they can save themselves some bother, but research and consideration of what is found is the very thing they won't do.

but Scots are different didnt you know!

They are far more sophisticated than those funny french speaking canucks, everything will turn out to be wonderful.

[gary1979666]

If Scotland does return a lot of Labour MPs and then we get a Labour govt in the UK, then the claim that they get told what to do by Westminister is in tatters, which was the crux of the YES campaign.

Also, would the SNP MPs voting against an EU referendum be a bit hypicritical (I know they're politicians, and it's a given, but still!) Denying the citizens of the UK a vote on how much influence an 'external body' to which they send elected representatives, who a largely outvoted by other, more influential members. (For the record, want a referendum, but want it to deliver an IN vote, then can put the issue back in the box for another 30 years.)

For me, the scariest thing that's been mentioned in the thread of late is talk of a UKIP coalition. Deputy PM Farage! OMG! Even as a tory this is a big worry.

[eFestivals]

For me, the scariest thing that's been mentioned in the thread of late is talk of a UKIP coalition. Deputy PM Farage! OMG! Even as a tory this is a big worry.

this is something that is most liukely to happen via the choices that Scotland makes.

If Scotland makes its 'normal' choices, it's exceedingly unlikely to happen.

If Scotland votes SNP, it's much MUCH more likely to happen.

Scotland likes to pretend that how it votes makes no difference.

If Scotland votes SNP and causes UKIP to wield power when Scotland voting Labour would have Labour in power, Scotland will prove to itself its own bullshit in the most destructive way onto Scotland that it's possible to be.

Listen to Salmond's words of yesterday. It's clear that he'll do what is good for himself and not what is good for Scotland.

[gary1979666]

this is something that is most liukely to happen via the choices that Scotland makes.

If Scotland makes its 'normal' choices, it's exceedingly unlikely to happen.

If Scotland votes SNP, it's much MUCH more likely to happen.

Scotland likes to pretend that how it votes makes no difference.

If Scotland votes SNP and causes UKIP to wield power when Scotland voting Labour would have Labour in power, Scotland will prove to itself its own bullshit in the most destructive way onto Scotland that it's possible to be.

Listen to Salmond's words of yesterday. It's clear that he'll do what is good for himself and not what is good for Scotland.

For Christ's sake Scotland, listen to the man!

Vote SNP, get UKIP.

Vote Tory, get Tory - you know it makes sense!

[russycarps]

For Christ's sake Scotland, listen to the man!

Vote SNP, get UKIP.

Vote Tory, get Tory - you know it makes sense!

you want a tory government?

[eFestivals]

For Christ's sake Scotland, listen to the man!

Vote SNP, get UKIP.

Vote Tory, get Tory - you know it makes sense!

Uh?

Is that the normal nonsense from up there that there's red tories and blue tories?

If Scotland wants to be that daft and get what it says it doesn't want, it's like Scotland punching itself in the face.

[eFestivals]

you want a tory government?

SNP-ers *definitely* do.

[kaosmark2]

you want a tory government?

Sounds like it:

Even as a tory this is a big worry.

[gary1979666]

Uh?

Is that the normal nonsense from up there that there's red tories and blue tories?

If Scotland wants to be that daft and get what it says it doesn't want, it's like Scotland punching itself in the face.

Was just twisting/exaggerating your point about Scotland's impact on the vote........ it was funny in my head, when I wrote it, OK!

[gary1979666]

you want a tory government?

Yes

Just hope there's an SNP candidate running in North Herts, as apparently that's how we get one!

[eFestivals]

One thing that lots of SNP MP's propping up a Labour govt will cause is a rise in English nationalism.

That nationalism might be reasonably benign, like the claimed 'civic nationalism' of the SNP - and, if so, will be limited to English taxpayers money for English taxpayers (and perhaps a bit of continuing niceness and generosity to the Welsh and N.Irish). Which of course means bye-bye Barnet formula and other Scottish extras, and a poorer Scotland as a result.

Or it will be a mean and nasty nationalism, driven by the likes of UKIP and Britain First, which will be bye-bye Barnet formula and other Scottish extras, plus a whole lot more of other nasty stuff.

But hey, a poorer Scotland for a while followed by the default of indy of a poorer iScotland forever is the SNP's dream, and fits so perfectly with the stated dreams of indy of a richer Scotland.

[atomised]

So with lord Barnetts passing will his formula also die

[MichaelsBeard]

Scotland voting in a government that has absolutely no chance of being elected on a national scale can only be detrimental to Scotland - especially considering the party that would be elected (Tories) are loathed by all SNP voters. You're achieving nothing voting SNP and I would imagine that Cameron et all would be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of you voting for the SNP in large numbers as it massively helps his cause.

The only reason you'd be voting SNP in such numbers (considering how staunchly Labour was voted for in Scotland at the last GE) is because of a petulance of not accepting the democratic will of Scotland in the Indy Ref and persisting in a 'revolution' of rejecting anything to do with Westminster. A revolution that will never work as Scotland democratically voted for accepting the status quo. Surely you can see that you'd be rather shooting yourself in the foot a little?

In my view it's time to accept the result of the independence referendum and work within the parameters of a system that Scotland has voted to stay within. If you don't want the Tories voting SNP is not the way to achieve that.

[russycarps]

Yes

Tit.

Scotland voting in a government that has absolutely no chance of being elected on a national scale can only be detrimental to Scotland - especially considering the party that would be elected (Tories) are loathed by all SNP voters. You're achieving nothing voting SNP and I would imagine that Cameron et all would be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of you voting for the SNP in large numbers as it massively helps his cause.

The only reason you'd be voting SNP in such numbers (considering how staunchly Labour was voted for in Scotland at the last GE) is because of a petulance of not accepting the democratic will of Scotland in the Indy Ref and persisting in a 'revolution' of rejecting anything to do with Westminster. A revolution that will never work as Scotland democratically voted for accepting the status quo. Surely you can see that you'd be rather shooting yourself in the foot a little?

In my view it's time to accept the result of the independence referendum and work within the parameters of a system that Scotland has voted to stay within. If you don't want the Tories voting SNP is not the way to achieve that.

Yep. The bitterness among the Yes voters is so huge that nothing else matters. They want a tory government, they want the pain that will come with it. They want poor people to suffer as it makes good headlines and allows them to push the indy agenda.

What a lovely bunch.

[gary1979666]

Tit.

Go punch yourself in the face!

[kaosmark2]

Go punch yourself in the face!

Poor people deserve faces too.

[gary1979666]

General question - would PR make a vote for the SNP less of a punch in the face?

Similarly, is a vote for the Greens the same?

[kaosmark2]

General question - would PR make a vote for the SNP less of a punch in the face?

Similarly, is a vote for the Greens the same?

PR would mean that individuals and smaller parties would come under more scrutiny for how they vote, so it would depend. The SNP could vote in line with their propaganda, or they could vote in line with their record, but the discrepancy between those would be highlighted far more in the event of PR.

IMO, the Greens haven't shown themselves up as hypocrites in the way that SNP and Libs have. Mainly because they haven't had the opportunity, but in terms of "is a vote for the Greens another vote that might let the Tories in", yes, yes it is.