The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I agree with this mate but as you are starting to realise, an SNP Govt is a better option for our Country at the moment than either of them.

The SNP are not capable of governing your country, as it's impossible for them to gain enough seats to do so.

Oh, soz ... I'd forgotten that you'd been drawing imaginary lines.

Edited November 4, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

You would if you actually listened to policy statements, rather than inventing false ones to keep up a false narrative.

You say Labour are the same as the tories, yet with those words of yours you've just proven that you don't have the first idea.

What Labour says they will do & what Labour does are often different things. For many years Labour in opposition has been more left wing than Labour in government.

[eFestivals]

there is a reason that throughout the whole Indy campaign, Better Together were unable to attack the SNP Govt over the way they went about the business of running the country.

They did, and provided the evidence to back it up.

The yes-ers response to evidence? To reject it with rhetoric only.

Most up here ( on both sides ) recognise it`s a pretty efficient machine they have put in place.

you don't hear too much bitching about any country councils in anywhere in the UK.

Have you ever stopped for a moment and considered why?

They won by a margin of victory that few thought possible in the last Scottish elections and are well on track to repeat that despite losing the Indy ref ( see, i do realise YES lost ). Why do you think we are unlikely to get the powers to run things for ourselves instead of the crumbs off the table ? Imagine we make a go of it without making it all about austerity and cuts !

and without the Barnet formula too, to prop up the extra luxuries that the union gives you?

In the past, it would have been fair to accuse them of being a bit of a one trick pony who were only really interested in their " goal ".

PMSL - please show me a single progressive policy that the SNP have implemented.

I can show you an awful lot of non-progressive and centralist policies that they've implemented - just like any tory govt.

Most people in Scotland now realise that they have evolved although I accept that most of the good folks on efest are lagging a bit behind on this

If they were the beacon of truth and honesty that you suggest, then perhaps try reconciling Alex's future oil revenue claims with the actual revenues.

And then try explaining to me how they'd have delivered on their indy promises of jam from the sky.

[eFestivals]

What Labour says they will do & what Labour does are often different things. For many years Labour in opposition has been more left wing than Labour in government.

Do you think that Labour will hold an EU ref?

Do you think that Labour will make extra cuts in public spending and public services to reward their rich mates with tax cuts?

[russycarps]

If you don`t mind me saying Russy, this comes across as being quite arrogant and dismissive ( apologies if you meant it to sound like that ) of over a million people in Scotland who already find themselves living in " relative poverty ". When you consider that there are just over 5 million of us up here it`s pretty disgusting really. Have you ever thought for a minute that perhaps the " Independence dream " as you put it might have involved trying to do something about that ?

Saying that the people who thought Scotland should be an Independent country "actually want the pain the Tories will bring " ?????

You maybe want to think that through a bit more

Unlike you, I see people as just people. I dont differentiate between people living in scotland and people living in england.

the millions of people I referred to, who will suffer in the event of a tory government, aided to power by SNP voting scots, will be widespread across the entire UK.

You only care about the fate of scots it seems, just like most other Yes voters. I cannot imagine only caring about what happens to people in england. Seems like a rather unpleasant way of thinking to me.

Oh Dear !

You can`t have it both ways sir. Your all over the place today. From what your saying today, are you now agreeing that Scotland should have voted YES ?

You do realise that IF Scotland had voted YES then the " pain " of a Tory Govt would have been removed at a stroke for a long, long time. As we tried to say at the time, hopefully Scotland would have led the way and shown that a fairer society can be created by countries that don`t vote Tory. Some of these countries may have even followed our lead but it was Scotland who were having the Referendum.

If you were so concerned for " poor people suffering under a Tory Govt " why were you pushing for them to stay under a Tory Govt ? It honestly doesn`t make sense when you look at what youve been saying today. Labour, who are talking about being tougher on austerity than the Tories, couldn`t win a raffle. I posted a link the other day with some of Jim Murphys background. The Unions are not supporting him because of what he believes in. Dave is laughing as the chance to take a different path is gone. If / when he gets the English votes for Engerland through Labour are finished North and South.

Scotland had a chance to do something different. Don`t tell me you only wanted Scotland to stay part of the beloved Union as you were thinking that you could rely on us saving you from the Tories ? Pity you weren`t thinking of " the poor people " then.

If you did, Dave was laughing at you when he made his speech at 7am the morning after our vote. Sadly, as I`ve been saying, Ed will be no match for him over the coming months.

Are you really accusing 45% of Scottish voters of wanting a Tory Govt when a YES vote would have removed the Tories for a generation ? Really ?

Looks to me like you are now realising that YOU were the one encouraging people to vote to remain under Tory Rule. What have you done

#preyforrussy

So you freely admit you hope a tory government comes to power, and are happy to help them do so, just to give a boost to the independence campaign. Despite the fact you know millions of people (in scotland, england, wales and n ireland) will suffer terribly.

Perhaps you should cut out the middle man and vote tory directly.

[eFestivals]

Unlike you, I see people as just people. I dont differentiate between people living in scotland and people living in england.

the millions of people I referred to, who will suffer in the event of a tory government, aided to power by SNP voting scots, will be widespread across the entire UK.

You only care about the fate of scots it seems, just like most other Yes voters. I cannot imagine only caring about what happens to people in england. Seems like a rather unpleasant way of thinking to me.

So you freely admit you hope a tory government comes to power, and are happy to help them do so, just to give a boost to the independence campaign. Despite the fact you know millions of people (in scotland, england, wales and n ireland) will suffer terribly.

Perhaps you should cut out the middle man and vote tory directly.

Nicely put Russy, in both replies. You've nailed what's going on.

[eFestivals]

Labour, who are talking about being tougher on austerity than the Tories

what you're doing here comfy is displaying your gross ignorance.

It's true that Labour have committed to the same financial balance levels (the difference between income and expenditure) as the tories.

But what is not true is that any Labour-led austerity will be worse than the tories, or even the same.

The tories are committed to greater cuts in spending, so that they're able to give some further tax cuts to the rich.

But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of your voting intentions?

It's much the same as the indyref, where few yes-ers bothered to do the sums to see that an SNP-led govt of iScotland would have to make even deeper cuts than both the tories or Labour.

Oh sorry, not only is there Scottish exceptionalism, there's Scottish mathematics as well. Reality creeps into neither.

Edited November 4, 2014 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

what you're doing here comfy is displaying your gross ignorance.

It's true that Labour have committed to the same financial balance levels (the difference between income and expenditure) as the tories.

But what is not true is that any Labour-led austerity will be worse than the tories, or even the same.

The tories are committed to greater cuts in spending, so that they're able to give some further tax cuts to the rich.

But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of your voting intentions?

It's much the same as the indyref, where few yes-ers bothered to do the sums to see that an SNP-led govt of iScotland would have to make even deeper cuts than both the tories or Labour.

Oh sorry, not only is there Scottish exceptionalism, there's Scottish mathematics as well. Reality creeps into neither.

It's insane isnt it, that these yes voters are now trying to justify their voting intentions by trying to claim labour are WORSE than the tories.

As much as labour have lurched to the right, it is utter madness to think this labour government are to the right of the tories.

A tory government with an outright majority, or in coalition with ukip, will be catastrophic.

And to actively want this! Well it's sheer madness. Especially if you live in a place like scotland who will be hammered.

Do these people actually think the tories will offer them another referendum after the scare this year? Get real.

[eFestivals]

Do these people actually think the tories will offer them another referendum after the scare this year? Get real.

There's not a hope in hell that they'll be allowed another for 15 years at the absolute minimum, no matter what might happen around the issue (such as the UK leaving the EU, perhaps).

By deciding to not be independent, Scotland has opted-in to anything and everything that comes from the UK, EU-exit included if that's what happens.

Plus, with extra powers coming to Scotland, no meaningful evaluation of those powers will be able to be made until they've had a decent amount of 'running time' to see how they work - which will be a minimum of 10 years at the very least.

Personally, given how the yes-ers are refusing to accept the vote of their own nation and are looking for any excuse to make the UK politically unworkable, I'd be quite happy for them to leave right now, and i'll get the popcorn in.

To quote your glorious and faultless leader, you've passed up a once in a lifetime opportunity. Get used to it.

[LJS]

for the umpteenth time Neil claims to know what I think & why I think it better than I do myself. What a special gift that is. Neil says when I entered this debate I was a Labour voter. He is wrong - I have not voted Labour in any election for 4 years at least & probably only 2 or 3 times in the last 10 years. I still regard the Labour Party as the "natural" home for my vote but as I have written at length, not in its current "state" Of course my recent "conversion" to Independence gives me another reason to cast my vote elsewhere but not out of petty spite.

Neil quotes the fixed term parliament act to refute my claim that a minority Tory or Tory/Kip government would not be viable - the significance of this being that if there is majority Tory or Tory/kip government, then assuming Scotland doesn't vote in any more tories (we won't elect any Kippers) This will be entirely the doing of the voters of England & Wales. Quite how the fixed term thing makes a minority government more viable, I have no idea. it prevents the PM calling an election on a whim, but as I understand it, we still get an election if the government loses a vote of confidence. So they either have to come up with a programme that will be supported by at least one significant grouping of mp's or risk another GE.

Interestingly, whilst it is us Yessers who are accused of continuing to fight the battle after it was lost, in this thread at least, it is Neil who continues to tirelessly & tiresomely trot out his Anti Independence projections & predictions dressed as facts. Move on Neil - we are now talking about today not yesterday.

Neil states with certainty that we won't get another Indy Ref for at least 15 years. Now, you may well be right but it is not impossible to come up with scenarios where it could be sooner particularly if SNP sustain anything like the levels of support the polls are now showing. The SNP holding the balance of power in Westminster & a majority at Holyrood would be a powerful combination. Other scenarios are of course available & there is always an element of luck in these things. But it would be a brave man to rule it out completely.

[LJS]

latest ipsos Mori poll on Holyrood (not westminster) voting intentions

SNP 57%
Labour 23%
Conservatives 8%
Liberal Democrats 6%

Holyrood list vote :

SNP 50%
Labour 23%
Greens 10%
Conservatives 8%
Liberal Democrats 6%

In case anyone is unaware, the greens only field list candidates

[LJS]

It's insane isnt it, that these yes voters are now trying to justify their voting intentions by trying to claim labour are WORSE than the tories.

Can't speak for anyone else but I am not claiming this. They are a wee bit less worser than the Tories.

My concern is that by endorsing Labour I endorse the acceptance of a right of centre consensus in Uk politics. I accept for the foreseeable future the best we can hope for is "shite, but not quite as shite as the tories"

I'm not prepared to settle for that.

And you will note that I am not proposing the SNP as a beacon of Socialism although I am interested to see how they shape up under Nicola.

Edited November 4, 2014 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

It's insane isnt it, that these yes voters are now trying to justify their voting intentions by trying to claim labour are WORSE than the tories.

As much as labour have lurched to the right, it is utter madness to think this labour government are to the right of the tories.

A tory government with an outright majority, or in coalition with ukip, will be catastrophic.

And to actively want this! Well it's sheer madness. Especially if you live in a place like scotland who will be hammered.

Do these people actually think the tories will offer them another referendum after the scare this year? Get real.

I realise that I am going round in circles and perhaps wasting my time but just wanted to clear this bold bit up.

This was in direct reply to my observation that " Labour are talking about being tougher on austerity than the Tories "

Below is a cut and paste job that lead me to take this view......

Rachel Reeves: Labour will be tougher than Tories

Rachel Reeves, Labour’s Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary , speaking in October 2013, was even more succinct:

“It is not an either/or question. We would be tougher [than the Conservatives]. If they don’t take it [the offer of a job] they will forfeit their benefit. But there will also be the opportunities there under a Labour government”.

Edited November 4, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Russy, can you do me a favour and quote the bit where someone on here said " this Labour Government are to the right of the Tories ". I predict you made that up and will not be able to quote anything of the sort.

[Comfy Bean]

the millions of people I referred to, who will suffer in the event of a tory government, aided to power by SNP voting scots, will be widespread across the entire UK.

So you freely admit you hope a tory government comes to power, and are happy to help them do so, just to give a boost to the independence campaign. Despite the fact you know millions of people (in scotland, england, wales and n ireland) will suffer terribly.

Perhaps you should cut out the middle man and vote tory directly.

I have never voted Tory and have never hoped that a Tory Govt comes to power. I have made this point umpteen times on this thread as I suspect you realise. I can only assume that you are running out of relevant points to make and are resorting to making stuff up

And this after me doing everything I could to win you that bet

Since the referendum vote a couple of months back, the deputy leader of scottish labour has stepped down, the leader of scottish labour has stepped down and Darling, the leader of Better Together has stepped down. It has been some " victory parade ". They all stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories and urged the people of Scotland to remain in the Union under a Tory Govt. They hugged the Tories on the victory platforms that night but now they have walked. Is anyone really surprised that this has been the end game for 3 senior Scottish Labour figures ?

As I said yesterday, a YES vote would have meant NO Tory Govt anymore for millions of people which would have been a start and a step in the right direction. I realise that you cannot " step down " Russy but you could be honest about what you supported. You have every right to support the No campaign and support the union but lets not pretend that YES voters were supporting the Tories as we ALL know the opposite of this is true.

I note above that you are attempting to re-write history with this " in the event of a Tory Govt " . As fine you know, at the time of the referendum "we" were in fact already under a Tory Govt.

I am comfortable with the choice I made and the reasons for it. If everyone in Scotland had shared my view we would have had a long and difficult road ahead but we would have been planning right now for a future without a Tory Govt. I`m honestly surprised that you chose not to support us.

[Comfy Bean]

Can't speak for anyone else but I am not claiming this. They are a wee bit less worser than the Tories.

My concern is that by endorsing Labour I endorse the acceptance of a right of centre consensus in Uk politics. I accept for the foreseeable future the best we can hope for is "shite, but not quite as shite as the tories"

I'm not prepared to settle for that.

And you will note that I am not proposing the SNP as a beacon of Socialism although I am interested to see how they shape up under Nicola.

I sense that the first step on a long road would be to avoid electing Jim Murphy. I`m not sure if a guy who has always been more intereted in Westminster and is regarded as being to the right of the party is what is needed in Scotland at the moment. He is certainly well known and does talk a pretty good game but he carries alot of expenses baggage ( don`t they all ) and rightly or wrongly will be seen by many as a guy who has his eye more on a future in Westminster. Looks like the Unions will be backing Neil Findlay. I think Kezia Dugdale is a good choice for deputy. Saw her on a few programmes in the run up to the vote and she always came across pretty well.

[Comfy Bean]

There's not a hope in hell that they'll be allowed another for 15 years at the absolute minimum, no matter what might happen around the issue (such as the UK leaving the EU, perhaps).

Probably agree

By deciding to not be independent, Scotland has opted-in to anything and everything that comes from the UK, EU-exit included if that's what happens.

Probably agree. The point was made a few times that there would be consequences of voting NO as there were with voting YES

Plus, with extra powers coming to Scotland, no meaningful evaluation of those powers will be able to be made until they've had a decent amount of 'running time' to see how they work - which will be a minimum of 10 years at the very least.

Agreed. This is a fair point. Changes need time to bed in.

Personally, given how the yes-ers are refusing to accept the vote of their own nation and are looking for any excuse to make the UK politically unworkable, I'd be quite happy for them to leave right now, and i'll get the popcorn in.

Totally disagree. How can anyone make the the UK politically unworkable ? Think that is a bit extreme. Also, " Refusing to accept " ??????

To quote your glorious and faultless leader, you've passed up a once in a lifetime opportunity. Get used to it.

Do you agree that Independence was an " opportunity " ?

[russycarps]

I see oil dipped below $80 dollars a barrel yesterday. A very far cry from the snps precious $113. What exactly was the snps plan b in the event of this eventuality again?

Meanwhile it's reported that the hated-by-scots London is making a net contribution of £34bn a year to the UKs public finances. Lucky that place exists to prop up your free prescriptions and universitys isn't it.

Since you asked, Independence was a massive missed opportunity because the campaign was lead by an egomaniac fantasist who was in bed with murdoch and big business.

And as for quotes regarding Labour being to the right of the torys it's been implied several times

[eFestivals]

for the umpteenth time Neil claims to know what I think

Nope. I'm just repeating back (paraphrasing) what you've said here in the past.

Your opinions have changed in the last 9(ish) months. They're allowed to, just as I'm allowed to recognise that they have.

The denial that they have is somewhat amusing tho. Give it another 6 months and you'll prolly be claiming you've always been a nationalist.

assuming Scotland doesn't vote in any more tories (we won't elect any Kippers) This will be entirely the doing of the voters of England & Wales.

the voting of tories and kippers will be their doing only.

The make-up for the parliament and what that parliament is able to do as a result is the doing of everyone who votes, Scotland included.

As I keep having to repeat to you: in UK elections, there is nothing that is called Scotland, and each individual's vote is 100% equal. You cannot shirk your responsibility via that equality by some fake pretence around a non existent Scotland.

Interestingly, whilst it is us Yessers who are accused of continuing to fight the battle after it was lost, in this thread at least, it is Neil who continues to tirelessly & tiresomely trot out his Anti Independence projections & predictions dressed as facts. Move on Neil - we are now talking about today not yesterday.

Says the man who still wants indy on the basis at not even having considered the Scottish govts own words that Scotland is more financially fucked than the UK.

When yes-ers won't even believe the govt they want to empower, what's the point of empowering that parliament?

Neil states with certainty that we won't get another Indy Ref for at least 15 years. Now, you may well be right but it is not impossible to come up with scenarios where it could be sooner particularly if SNP sustain anything like the levels of support the polls are now showing. The SNP holding the balance of power in Westminster & a majority at Holyrood would be a powerful combination. Other scenarios are of course available & there is always an element of luck in these things. But it would be a brave man to rule it out completely.

No Westminster govt will do a backroom deal to grant Scotland another indyref - it would be the instant death of any party that did so, and 100% counter-intellectual.

Again, this is a case of a yes-er refusing to accept the words of his own glorious leader. Salmond's words will be used to justify all refusals by Westminster for a minimum of 15 years.

I'm brave enough to face political reality and rule it out completely.

As ever, yes-ers won't face political reality. Plenty of you think there'll be a Labour/SNP coalition when your glorious leader has already categorically ruled it out (as he should if he doesn't want the SNP to be the next LibDems).

We can take this back up in 15 years, when you'll have to admit you were wrong.

[eFestivals]

latest ipsos Mori poll on Holyrood (not westminster) voting intentions

SNP 57%

Labour 23%

Conservatives 8%

Liberal Democrats 6%

Holyrood list vote :

SNP 50%

Labour 23%

Greens 10%

Conservatives 8%

Liberal Democrats 6%

In case anyone is unaware, the greens only field list candidates

Independents always do much better in county council elections. That's the result of exercising power with little responsibility for taxation.

Give it a few years of (proper Barnet-free) Devo Max, and the things will even back out.

[eFestivals]

My concern is that by endorsing Labour I endorse the acceptance of a right of centre consensus in Uk politics. I accept for the foreseeable future the best we can hope for is "shite, but not quite as shite as the tories"

I'm not prepared to settle for that.

Then you're not prepared to settle for democracy.

Like it or not, the opinions of others in this country give us that outcome. Trying to manipulate - poison - the political process to undermine democracy to try to get the result you want is exactly what it is.

I fucking hate that there's so many morons who vote tory or UKIP, but drawing imaginary lines doesn't give a democratic result.

[eFestivals]

Below is a cut and paste job that lead me to take this view......

then you should learn to examine policies, and not go with empty soundbites (there's a whole indyref theme just there ).

But anyway, 'being tougher' could mean many different things. The tories have talked tough but achieved almost nothing in reducing the deficit. Having plans that actually achieve the desired result rather than failing is being tougher.

The actual facts? Labour have stated that they'll work to the same "reduce the financial deficit" plans as the tories, but not via the same methods. The tories have said their methods will have greater cuts in public spending so there's money spare for tax cuts.

The difference is around £20Bn in annual public spending. But hey, if you think Scotland is better off with an extra £2Bn of public spending cuts, go ahead and vote SNP.

[eFestivals]

I have never voted Tory and have never hoped that a Tory Govt comes to power.

That's fine, I think that too.

But the reality is: they do.

Any person's vote within the FPTP system is not only a vote for your representative, it's also a vote towards the make-up of the govt that rules over you.

If you choose to vote in such a way that enables a tory govt to rule over you (which a large SNP vote in Scotland is likely to do), you will have enabled that tory govt.

Pretending it's not like that is moronic. The system is what it is.

[eFestivals]

carries alot of expenses baggage ( don`t they all )

Yep, Salmond included.

While he may or may not have taken the piss with his expenses (I've no idea either way, nor do I care), he's become a very rich man by riding the gravy train - so much so that he just doesn't want to give it up. His drive is personal ambition, not Scotland.

He's no less addicted to power for power's sake than the like of Murphy.

[eFestivals]

Totally disagree. How can anyone make the the UK politically unworkable ? Think that is a bit extreme. Also, " Refusing to accept " ??????

When a party's aim is not what is good for the UK, but instead what is good for fracturing the UK against the wishes of its own (Scottish) population, and for personal power purposes, then yes, the system will be politically unworkable.

As it looks like we'll all be finding out from May.

Do you agree that Independence was an " opportunity " ?

yep - an opportunity for a financially worse-off Scotland, amongst other things.

If Scotland had been happy to accept the very real consequences of choosing indy, I'd have cheered the campaign along.

I am not prepared to cheer along no less of a big con than any tory promise.

Edited November 5, 2014 by eFestivals