The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

We are going around in circles. Sadly, I have neither the time nor inclination to respond in detail to every point above. If you choose to interpret that as you winning the argument-feel free. You will be wrong. Ideally we would continue the discussion over a few pints....that would be fun.

I remain convinced that the best way for the distinct culture & values of Scotland to be expressed is through independence. I am not naive enough to think that everything will be a bed of roses & there will be compromises along the way but in the end we will come out of it stronger.

[eFestivals]

We are going around in circles. Sadly, I have neither the time nor inclination to respond in detail to every point above.

Except we're not going around in circles. I've given you some facts you previously didn't know, and which should change your considerations and perhaps conclusions about independence.

Have they changed anything of your considerations? If they haven't, are you really the sort of person to be making this choice?

Note: I said "considerations", not "conclusions". You reach a conclusion from what you consider. In what you've posted so far you've shown that you've reached your conclusion by making flawed considerations

I remain convinced that the best way for the distinct culture & values of Scotland to be expressed is through independence. I am not naive enough to think that everything will be a bed of roses & there will be compromises along the way but in the end we will come out of it stronger.

Or you might come out of it weaker - which you will if a yes vote is narrowly won and the buckets of jam are not delivered (which they won't be, at least not all of them).

But hey, if there's no facts that can alter a jot of your thinking - and this exchange suggests that's the case - then you'll at least get maximum enjoyment out of the surprise.

Edited March 31, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Except we're not going around in circles. I've given you some facts you previously didn't know, and which should change your considerations and perhaps conclusions about independence.

Have they changed anything of your considerations? If they haven't, are you really the sort of person to be making this choice?

Stating something again & again does not make it a fact. where I have been incorrect I have acknowledged that, As much as possible where I think things are open to different interpretations I have acknowledged that. Most if not all your "facts" are "in fact" opinions. How can I say that? Because there are plenty of qualified, experienced knowledgeable people who dispute your "facts" & give opinions which are different.

I try & avoid statements which are inaccurate so most of my posts above were preceded by lengthy trawls around the internet to make sure I wasn't talking complete bollox.

I do not have the inclination to continue with that for a conversation mainly between you & me .

As I said before it would be a great pub conversation but not for me worth the time & effort without pint in front of me.

I won't change my mind because I am not voting for jam, I'm not voting for Currency union. I'm not voting for eu membership. i'm not voting for oil. I'm voting for my children to live in a country whose governments better reflect the hopes, culture beliefs & aspirations of the Scottish people.

Can't promise to have left this debate for ever but I have devoted too much time to it over the last few days.

lang may yer lum reek!

Edited March 31, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Those nats are fruitcakes.

Scotland to switch to driving on the right if independence given green light

[eFestivals]

Stating something again & again does not make it a fact.

and saying "I know nothing about what a currency union is but I can't see why it can't happen" doesn't make your informed.

I've given you some facts about what a currency union is and isn't. If you wish to make up your mind on your stated ignorance tho, do feel free. The consequences are Scotland's and not mine.

Most if not all your "facts" are "in fact" opinions. How can I say that? Because there are plenty of qualified, experienced knowledgeable people who dispute your "facts" & give opinions which are different.

And yet ...

- the rules of entry for the EU are beyond dispute, they're written in the Lisbon Treaty. The "experts" you're referring to are no such thing if they say anything different to that - and the yes campaign's 'experts' do. The yes campaign presents some words by Avery for why Scotland will be in the EU on Scotland's terms, and Avery says the yes campaign is being simple - LYING!!!

- what a currency union is is beyond dispute. It would have rUK underwrite iScotland's debts.

There are few facts in the independence debate, but these are two irrefutable ones.

If you are believing anything else the error is yours but the consequences are Scotland's.

I try & avoid statements which are inaccurate so most of my posts above were preceded by lengthy trawls around the internet to make sure I wasn't talking complete bollox.

sadly far too few, as you showed when you displayed that you don't understand what a currency union is.

I do not have the inclination to continue with that for a conversation mainly between you & me .

It's of course your right, as is your vote whether made fully informed or ignorant.

I won't change my mind because I am not voting for jam, I'm not voting for Currency union. I'm not voting for eu membership. i'm not voting for oil. I'm voting for my children to live in a country whose governments better reflect the hopes, culture beliefs & aspirations of the Scottish people.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I do hope to wise a few people up.

Because you cannot vote for the "hopes, culture beliefs & aspirations of the Scottish people" when those hopes are the CU and EU yes campaign lies and the aspirations are being formed around that very VERY big bullshit.

Walk with your eyes open, do not stumble in the dark.

Edited April 1, 2014 by eFestivals

[LondonTom]

Those nats are fruitcakes.

Scotland to switch to driving on the right if independence given green light

I believed that story up until " road signage system. M for motorway will be replaced with a new S – for Scotland and the A trunk roads will become N roads "

[eFestivals]

I believed that story up until " road signage system. M for motorway will be replaced with a new S – for Scotland and the A trunk roads will become N roads "

Plonker

I saw the headline and thought that's been written by a youngster cos that's been done as an april fool's before - during the 80s, with the EU supposedly going to force trhe UK to drive on the right.

Given how fake EU stories normally pan out, I'm quite surprised that that old version hasn't become a Daily Mail EU-myth-fact-myth.

[eFestivals]

The thing is the whole Yes thing is that fucking barmy it could of been true

why's it barmy? I'd have thought you'd be the very first to approve of a bunch of people saying "it's all mine, it's all mine, I deserve everything of that".

The idea isn't barmy cos greed is a well-established and (supposedly) positive trait in today's society. What's barmy are the reasons why many are voting for it.

Such as :-

1. a belief that the white paper is a fixed policy document, and a vote for independence will deliver all of it.

2. that iScotland will forever be a left leaning social democracy, just because that's today's dominant Scottish political view.

3. that Scottish politicians are better and different than all other politicians.

4. that the Scottish electorate is more sophisticated than all other electorates.

5. that the EU's entry rules don't apply to Scotland.

6. that Scotland is already a member of the EU.

7. that Ireland had a currency union with the UK when it left the UK so Scotland should too.

8. that what is good for Scotland is by default good for all other countries so they'll all bend over backwards to help Alex.

All of the above and much much more I've read from Scots who say they'll be voting yes, and the huge number of those mis-informed is going to be a heavy heavy hit on an iScotland if it won.

Or alternatively - and probably more likely - their anger will be directed south by the same people from Scotland who have filled their heads with those lies.

[DomDom1984]

It's the idea that somehow we're suddenly going to have great politicians that is the real mystery to me. Holyrood has a whole wealth of MSPs who are just hilarious and yet have found themselves in pretty good positions. Our MPs in London aren't great either. So I'd be very interested to see where all of the good Scottish politicians are going to appear from.

The EU thing is an interesting one because the logic just doesn't work. It's simple. The main argument I seem to see is "we'll be arguing from within the EU". Well, actually, seeing as the argument will likely happen when we're independent, no, we won't.

Sometimes I get the impression that it's mainly just deluded wannabe politicians that come up with the above, because I don't think it's hard to give a rational explanation for voting yes without resorting to bullshit. Just embrace the fact that there's a lot of unknowns, and accept that there's a lot of risk involved. I've realised that for a long time, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop me taking what is probably the biggest leap of faith I've ever taken.

[eFestivals]

Never under estimate Neil's ability to have an argument with himself, in your name

Never over-estimate Barry's brain cells.

[eFestivals]

It's the idea that somehow we're suddenly going to have great politicians that is the real mystery to me. Holyrood has a whole wealth of MSPs who are just hilarious and yet have found themselves in pretty good positions. Our MPs in London aren't great either. So I'd be very interested to see where all of the good Scottish politicians are going to appear from.

as far as it goes (measured against other politicians) I've always thought Salmond pretty good, but he's fucked up very badly in the last 15 years "sterling is a millstone around Scotland's neck" and that wonderful "arc of prosperity" (better known as the arc of the bankrupt banks), and the funny thing with that is that it's coincided with his biggest political successes - which seems to say the more you talk bollocks as a politician the more successful you will be.

The EU thing is an interesting one because the logic just doesn't work. It's simple. The main argument I seem to see is "we'll be arguing from within the EU". Well, actually, seeing as the argument will likely happen when we're independent, no, we won't.

Even if iScotland was able to have its arguments to the EU perfectly made for it by rUK, it would make fuck all difference.

There is a treaty signed by 28 countries. The rules of that treaty apply.

The only way around that is new treaties - which will take a hell of a lot longer than independence day.

Just embrace the fact that there's a lot of unknowns, and accept that there's a lot of risk involved. I've realised that for a long time, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop me taking what is probably the biggest leap of faith I've ever taken.

As far as I'm able to see they're the very best reasons for doing it - because you want to be independent, whatever that might bring you.

Not because there's a promise of being richer that might not be fulfilled - because no one knows for sure that you will be richer; you only get to find out when it's too late.

Unfortunately, yes can only win by making false promises, which is why it's making those false promises. That's about the worst basis for the start of an independent country I can imagine when the vote look likes being close(ish).

[LJS]

Alistair Darling moots UK vote on Scottish currency union

By John Aglionby

©Ivon Bartholomew/FT

The campaign against Scottish independencewas thrown into disarray on Monday when its leader left open the possibility of the UK holding a referendum on a currency union in the event of an independent Scotland.

The three main Westminister parties have all ruled out a currency union as part of their strategy to scare Scots off voting for independence. But the issue was reignited at the weekend when the Guardian quoted an unnamed cabinet minister as saying London would agree to share the pound as part of a deal to keep the UK’s nuclear deterrent in Scotland.

Strange,

why would he suggest that if it's such a ridiculous notion? and has already been ruled out by his lords & masters.

p.s. God know why I am back here ... must be crazy

p.p.s liked the Metallica story - nice to see you have a sense of humour.

After independence can we have Motorhead performing the soundtrack of Sunshine on Leith at Belladrum?

please?

p.p.p.s - above quote if from the ft ... just noticed it was not attributed

Edited April 1, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

As far as I'm able to see they're the very best reasons for doing it - because you want to be independent, whatever that might bring you.

Not because there's a promise of being richer that might not be fulfilled - because no one knows for sure that you will be richer; you only get to find out when it's too late.

Unfortunately, yes can only win by making false promises, which is why it's making those false promises. That's about the worst basis for the start of an independent country I can imagine when the vote look likes being close(ish).

you are right, these are the best reasons fro voting yes - & they are my reasons.

However, let's just imagine what happens if the Yes campaign runs with that as their policy.

What would the come back from the no campaign be?

What about taxes?

What about currency?

What about borders?

What about Europe?

So they have to flesh out what it looks like... they had no choice.

So you can disagree with their vision, but they had to have one.

The promises are not false - they are unproven. Their is a big difference.

This is politics ... both campaigns are guilty of exaggeration

We've even been told we won't get Dr, Who after independence!!

[LJS]

Never under estimate Neil's ability to have an argument with himself, in your name

I felt sorry for him arguing on his own after I'd gone

so.. I came back. How good is that?

Edited April 1, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Strange,

why would he suggest that if it's such a ridiculous notion? and has already been ruled out by his lords & masters.

You won't believe the three main parties when they go on record and say 'no', but you'll put full faith in an unattributed comment that says what you want to hear?

PMSL.

Edited April 2, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What would the come back from the no campaign be?

It wouldn't be your business. Foreign states do what's in their interest, not yours.

What about taxes?

What about currency?

What about borders?

What about Europe?

These would all be iScotland's choices to make, and other sovereign states to react to however they wished to.

But have no doubt that the yes campaign cannot beyond-doubt deliver you a currency union, open borders or EU membership because none of these things are within their control.

The promises are not false - they are unproven. Their is a big difference.

PMSL, that's a new description for what are lies.

How things might pan out is unproven, but the right of the rUK to decide whether iScotland has a CU is not, the right of the rUK to decide on how to police its borders is not, and what are the EU entry rules is not.

The yes campaign is claiming a right to currency, that their own immigration rules will never impact onto rUK border policy with iScotland, and that the EU is suddenly a sovereign body in its own right that will invent some new rules for iScotland without bothering to ask what it's members think.

Spot the difference between the facts and the yes campaign claims?

We've even been told we won't get Dr, Who after independence!!

will you own it? Nope. So you might not.

That's the point, none of these things are guaranteed. Anyone who promises you them is a liar because they cannot know if they can deliver.

iScotland is only able to honestly promise what iScotland has the power to deliver - which is none of those things.

Edited April 2, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

I wish I was as certain about things as you are. It must make life so simple.

[eFestivals]

I wish I was as certain about things as you are. It must make life so simple.

there are facts and then there are opinions. Facts are always certain.

All it takes is to recognise facts as facts.

You could do it too, by checking those facts for yourself.

The very thing which the 'yes' campaign desperately doesn't want people who might vote yes to do.

[LJS]

I have, & in my opinion. Your facts are largely opinions.

But then, that's only my opinion & that is a fact.

[DomDom1984]

Well, actually, nothing being guaranteed is actually a fact, based on these things having to be worked out post-independence. You can talk about how likely any one thing is, but there are no guarantees with this.

Edited April 2, 2014 by DomDom1984

[eFestivals]

I have, & in my opinion. Your facts are largely opinions.

But then, that's only my opinion & that is a fact.

The EU entry rules are facts, not opinions.

Anything at odds with those facts of the entry rules - or alternatively, doesn't say that EU treaty changes would be necessary for iScotland to achieve what its stated in regard to the EU - ceases to be fact and becomes bullshit.

The yes campaign is giving you bullshit. Even some of the people they're choosing to quote in support of their claims are calling the yes campaign bullshitters.

[DomDom1984]

Both sides are more than competent at handing out the bullshit. Both sides are just giving possible outcomes as what WILL happen. As had to be expected all along. I'm taking both sides as seriously as each other in their scaremongering vs. sky reaching campaigns.

[eFestivals]

Well, actually, nothing being guaranteed is actually a fact, based on these things having to be worked out post-independence. You can talk about how likely any one thing is, but there are no guarantees with this.

well, yes there is .,.. it's just that the yes campaign doesn't like the guarantees.

Cos it's guaranteed that iScotland will be outside of the EU if independence day remains as stated.

The current rules say that Scotland cannot apply for EU membership until an independent sovereign nation.

Changed rules cannot be agreed, ratified by member states (with required referendums in some member states including the UK), and put in place in the timescale between a yes vote and independence day.

I certainly agree that there's any things to be worked out post-independence and what might be agreed could vary hugely ... but when control of the situation is so very far away from an iScotland as it would be with the EU, it hugely limits the amount of variance iScotland might achieve within iScotland's own timescales.

[DomDom1984]

I was talking more about how the negotiations are likely to go than being outside of the EU when we're doing the negotiating when I said that.

[eFestivals]

Both sides are more than competent at handing out the bullshit. Both sides are just giving possible outcomes as what WILL happen. As had to be expected all along. I'm taking both sides as seriously as each other in their scaremongering vs. sky reaching campaigns.

actually, I've yet to see any bullshit from the no campaign. Perhaps you could direct me at some?

What I have seen are statements around scenarios that are within rUK's control but not iScotland's, but where iScotland is saying it has the indisputable rUK take on things when it doesn't - such as around a CU, or borders, and the like.

Just because some statements from the no side aren't to the yes sides liking doesn't make them bullshit.