The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Margo MacDonald's passing has been described as a 'national tragedy'. I'm moved to post a lament in tribute to her

Beatiful!!

Love Richard

Loved Margo

[LJS]

here's a more political tribute

So don't talk to me of Scotland the brave
For if we don't fight soon there'll be nothing left to save
Or would you rather stand and watch them dig your grave
While ye wait for the Tartan messiah?
He'll lead us tae the promised land wi laughter in his eye
We'll all live on the oil and the whisky by and by
Free heavy beer, pie suppers in the sky
Will we never have the sense to learn?

[eFestivals]

I wouldn't be that surprised if Nutty Nigel won in K&C

Your surprise is nothing of his chances.

So, nothing like nutty nigel winning K&C.

Yes, exactly like that. A nationalist winning where the political affinity of the electorate broadly matches.

If there wasn't that match they would never win. Not even St. Margo.

[LJS]

Your surprise is nothing of his chances.

Yes, exactly like that. A nationalist winning where the political affinity of the electorate broadly matches.

If there wasn't that match they would never win. Not even St. Margo.

As you are appear to think you know more about politics in the area & era in which I grew up, It is clear this "debate" is totally pointless.

You don't really debate you just repeat the same old assertions again & again.

This time I am really out of here.

LJS

p.s. I'll send you a jar of jam from our great post-independence jam surplus in a couple of years.

Then let us pray that come it may,

(As come it will for a' that,)

That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,

Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.

For a' that, an' a' that,

It's coming yet for a' that,

That Man to Man, the world o'er,

Shall brothers be for a' that.

I could get a broken jaw from being in a fight

I know its evening when day turns to night

I can understand why Stranraer lie so lowly

They could save a lot of points by signing Hibs Goalie

But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land, cap in hand

We fight - when they ask us

We boast - then we cower

We beg

For a piece of

Whats already ours

Edited April 6, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." —Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense

"Making predictions is tough, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra, Catcher, NY Yankees

[eFestivals]

As you are appear to think you know more about politics in the area & era in which I grew up, It is clear this "debate" is totally pointless.

Is Govan left-leaning? Yep.

Is Ken & Chelsea right-leaning? Yep.

So for both places to vote for a candidate that leans their way but is nationalist is identical, apart from the way each area leans.

But I know fuck all, much less than the man who says that Benn winning Ken & Chelsea would be like Margo winning Govan.

Edited April 7, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." —Donald Rumsfeld, United States Secretary of Defense

"Making predictions is tough, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra, Catcher, NY Yankees

Have you been listening to the nats again who say that support for independence is 80% and the polls are a lying part of Project Fear?

[eFestivals]

To add to the growing list of things about the union that even the nats think are good (currency, borders, academic research, etc), I've found another thing which can be adde3d...

Scotland's security.

The white paper says that iScotland hopes that rUK will do the spying for iScotland, because the SNP obviously trust the English to help the SNP control the people of Scotland more than they trust the people of iScotland to not need spying on.

That one is particularly priceless, I think.

[philipsteak]

Nobody worry, the Americans are going to save us

http://harddawn.com/why-america-must-say-no-to-scotlands-independence-from-great-britain/

[LondonTom]

It looks bleak for Scotland if they go for indepedence doesn't it?

A weakness of body and spirit may explain their low birth rates. Scottish women take little care with their personal appearance, and the men are not endowed with any propensity for lovemaking, as the old saying goes.

Edited April 8, 2014 by LondonTom

[russycarps]

Nobody worry, the Americans are going to save us

http://harddawn.com/why-america-must-say-no-to-scotlands-independence-from-great-britain/

That's the greatest thing I've ever read.

It's 100% spot on too

[philipsteak]

A normally very active friend has broken his leg and is going a bit loopy at home. He keeps posting stuff from that site on Facebook. Getting close to intervention time I think

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

A normally very active friend has broken his leg and is going a bit loopy at home. He keeps posting stuff from that site on Facebook. Getting close to intervention time I think

"are militant atheists using chemtrails to poison the angels in heaven"

[LJS]

Scottish independence: Lord Robertson says Yes vote 'would be cataclysmic'

The former secretary general of Nato has said that Scottish independence would be cataclysmic for the West in an era of international turmoil.

Speaking in the US, Lord Robertson said a "debilitating divorce" after a "Yes" vote in September would threaten the stability of the wider world.

Yeah, right the free world will collapse if Scotland votes yes.

An example of balanced reasonable campaigning from Better together.

[eFestivals]

Yeah, right the free world will collapse if Scotland votes yes.

An example of balanced reasonable campaigning from Better together.

It's a rather stupid speech, but he does raise some sensible points.

The balance of power in the world will end up changing, and that will ripple around the world and take perhaps-decades to reach an equilibrium again, and in the meantime there'll be changed doings from all sorts of countries as a result.

As I said, it's a rather stupid speech because changes happen anyway, and he's played it at its worst.

But that's nothing different to everything from the other side, which is played at it's best - with an equal disdain for all reality.

[eFestivals]

An example of balanced reasonable campaigning from Better together.

when the yes campaign does balanced you'll be in the perfect position to criticise. Until then, each side is merely matching each other.

What's sad is that you aren't able to see that's the case.

Edited April 8, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

when the yes campaign does balanced you'll be in the perfect position to criticise. Until then, each side is merely matching each other.

What's sad is that you aren't able to see that's the case.

here are some quotes from me

if anyone is making their decision based on the propaganda of either the yes campaign or the Better Together campaign, their decision is based on a mixture of truth , lies, distortion, exaggeration & guesswork.

I see the flaws in both campaigns.

As I've said all along ... both sides mislead - of course they do- The yes camp will inevitable talk up the benefits just as the no camp will exaggerate the pitfalls.

Of course it is really hard to separate the facts from the spin (on both sides)

So I have always been clear that I take the propaganda from both sides with a bucketful of salt

you now say "each side is merely matching the other"

I'm glad to see you now agree with me on this.

this is what you used to think

The yes campaign is giving you bullshit.

actually, I've yet to see any bullshit from the no campaign

we're making progress

Edited April 8, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

here are some quotes from me

So I have always been clear that I take the propaganda from both sides with a bucketful of salt

you now say "each side is merely matching the other"

I'm glad to see you now agree with me on this.

this is what you used to think

we're making progress

Thing is, it's not bullshit. It's an extreme opinion derived from the facts, just as much of the Nat campaign is extreme opinion derived from the facts.

And then there's the bullshit of the yes campaign, like pretending that the EU membership rules are not the EU membership rules.

Care to wise me up to any actual bullshit from the no side? I'll be happy to see it.

And I've yet to see you - or any other yes supporter - motivated to post to condemn the loony-ness in general or any specific loony point of the yes side.

Loony-ness from NATO top brass is nothing particularly new or anti-Scottish. They still think 19th century power politics is all that applies, and because of that they're against any minute thing which might upset the current balance which they've come to believe is the only thing that's keeping peace in the world. It would be more surprising if NATO weren't spouting guff like this.

Edited April 9, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

One of the 'extreme opinions' from many yes supporters is their own game of project fear - an often stated belief that Scotland will be "punished" by Westminster for having had this vote if the vote is a no vote. Anyone might think those yes people are scaring people into voting their way.

And yet from where I'm sat, the 'punishment' definitely looks like being Devo Max, the thing that the people of Scotland want more than they do independence.

But I'm also certain they'll be a sting in the tail with that, that those who love to play victim will point at and scream 'look, they're punishing us', while the reality will be that the glorious SNP have brought it upon Scotland by their poor politics.

And that'll be Scotland's share of the debt.

I don't think anyone is going to be so daft as to give Scotland even more autonomy, while also allowing it free-reign to give the rest of the UK the flip over the debts that Scotland is equally responsible for.

[LJS]

Thanks for clarifying what we want in Scotland. We'll no need the referendum now.

& whilst there may have been individuals predicting Westminster taking 'revenge' on iScotland, I don't think you'll find it is the official yes campaign.

There are of course loads of crazies on both sides spouting crazy & sometimes downright offensive stuff.

Edited April 9, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Thanks for clarifying what we want in Scotland. We'll no need the referendum now.

Tjhanks for making stuff up that I've not said. ;rolleyes:

& whilst there may have been individuals predicting Westminster taking 'revenge' on iScotland, I don't think you'll find it is the official yes campaign.

There are of course loads of crazies on both sides spouting crazy & sometimes downright offensive stuff.

if you care to notice, I said "yes supporters" and not the "yes campaign". The distinction was deliberate.

There are defo crazies on both sides, but far fewer 'no' crazies in newspaper columns comments for whatever reason - perhaps only because the 'no' side doesn't really have to put anything forwards. We all already (only mostly, as the whole event is showing ) know what the union is about.

[Buff124]

It's an extreme opinion derived from the facts, just as much of the Nat campaign is extreme opinion derived from the facts.

This is an engineered situation of course. The 'excluded middle' strategy began with the decision to have a Yes/No referendum. No devo-more option.

These are the ground rules for the subsequent and ongoing debate, which polarised rapidly has stayed so ever since.

[LJS]

Tjhanks for making stuff up that I've not said. ;rolleyes:

You said " Devo Max, the thing that the people of Scotland want more than they do independence."

Apologies for getting mixed up with yes supporters & yes campaign - my error.

I have no intention of defending anything said by "yes supporters" any more than I will waste my time attacking what is said by "no supporters"

We are at least agreed that there are nutters on both sides & if as you imply there are more on the "yes" side, what does that prove? nothing.

My main gripe with better together is that it is basically the UK government (& Labour who may well be the next UK government) & so much of the details of what happens post independence would be decided by negotiation with the UK government. They use that position to their advantage by stating large swathes of the Yes proposals aren't going to happen because they won't let them happen.

I do not believe that that will be a tenable position after independence as it is inevitable that some of what is in iScotland's interests will also be in rUK's interest. So I believe much of what is now "impossible" will miraculously become possible after independence.

A bit like "we will never talk with terrorists"...."welcome to Windsor Mr McGuinness"

Or, before election "we won't double VAT"... "After election VAT goes up from 8 to 15%"

[LJS]

This is an engineered situation of course. The 'excluded middle' strategy began with the decision to have a Yes/No referendum. No devo-more option.

These are the ground rules for the subsequent and ongoing debate, which polarised rapidly has stayed so ever since.

I understand, but if you are suggesting a three option referendum, you just split the yes vote.

I suppose you could have 2 questions. 1: independence yes/ no? 2: if no, more devo yes/no

However that's not what we've got & can you blame a pro independence party that gains an overall majority with a voting system designed to prevent that ever happening for claiming they have a mandate for a referendum?

My view is that in the (still unlikely) event of a yes vote - there will end up being a negotiated agreement reached on a broad range of issues with rUK which will involve loads of compromise & will mean the end result may look a fair bit like devo max.

"So why go to all this bother for devo max?" I hear you scream. ... because Scotland will have the power if these negotiations don't work out to decide to go down a indy max route - either right away or perhaps over time as the 2 countries gradually drift apart.

That's my line anyway - as in everything in life people will make their decision for all sorts of reasons.

Edited April 9, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

My main gripe with better together is that it is basically the UK government (& Labour who may well be the next UK government) & so much of the details of what happens post independence would be decided by negotiation with the UK government. They use that position to their advantage by stating large swathes of the Yes proposals aren't going to happen because they won't let them happen.

I do not believe that that will be a tenable position after independence as it is inevitable that some of what is in iScotland's interests will also be in rUK's interest. So I believe much of what is now "impossible" will miraculously become possible after independence.

A bit like "we will never talk with terrorists"...."welcome to Windsor Mr McGuinness"

Or, before election "we won't double VAT"... "After election VAT goes up from 8 to 15%"

The currency union thing? Nah, it's nothing like those.

Long before it was an issue to do with Scotland it was an issue (towards the euro), and firm policies with decades of propaganda are long in place.

A smart Scottish politician would have realised that it would never be a viable option if put forwards in they way they've done.