The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I thought it was important that I move to reassure any Englishmen/women heading north for any of our delightful Scottish festivals this summer, that you have better than 50% chance of surviving the experience. Sure the country it's awash with bigoted hate-filled gangs, thirsting after the blood of the evil English.

Rest assured they'll be so drunk and unfit (too many deep fried mars bars) that you will be able to outrun them easily.

Actually don't tell Neil but we want to be friends after independence. We might even let you taste some of our lovely jam.

[russycarps]

I thought it was important that I move to reassure any Englishmen/women heading north for any of our delightful Scottish festivals this summer, that you have better than 50% chance of surviving the experience. Sure the country it's awash with bigoted hate-filled gangs, thirsting after the blood of the evil English.

Rest assured they'll be so drunk and unfit (too many deep fried mars bars) that you will be able to outrun them easily.

Actually don't tell Neil but we want to be friends after independence. We might even let you taste some of our lovely jam.

well in the event of independence I'm afraid I cant guarantee you a friendly welcome in surrey!

[eFestivals]

Vote no or the African baby gets it!

is there as firm a commitment from the socialist utopia of iScotland to the world's poorest as there is from that nasty evil Westminster?

Why, no there isn't.

But there is a promise of a tax cut to the wealthiest in Scotland.

So the yes campaign IS saying "vote no else the African baby gets it, otherwise the richest get wealthy at their expense".

Bloody inconvenient those facts, eh?

Edited April 14, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

We might even let you taste some of our lovely jam.

First you have to find the jam.

If you're very VERY lucky, you'll be able to come back with some in a decade or two. But probably not.

[zero000]

All this talk is making me think of Wales launching an independence bid. Quite possibly the worst idea ever, we would be fucked.

[LJS]

is there as firm a commitment from the socialist utopia of iScotland to the world's poorest as there is from that nasty evil Westminster?

Why, no there isn't.

I know it's not pantomime time yet...but,...oh yes there is!

[Buff124]

Do the Scots make Jam ? I thought that was an English thing

Its the same as English jam, only with added whisky.

Same as our soup. Scotch Broth is called that because we put a quarter-bottle of Scotch in it

[LJS]

Do the Scots make Jam ? I thought that was an English thing

Barry! I thought you'd forgotten us. Yes we do make jam from our amazing Scottish raspberries.

I'm never terribly sure what Neil is on about as he does get a bit carried away. But as best as I can work it out I think he is claiming that the Jam we have been promised by the Yes campaign may not materialise. So I presume we will get the Style Council.

This would clearly & understandably cause riots throughout Scotland + cause us to beg you to let us back in to the uK.

Nailed it again Neil.

[LJS]

hi comrades

just like to keep you up to speed with the next instalment in project fear's selfless campaign to save Scotland from itself.

brace yourselves... "The SNP’s plan to scrap Trident would cast a “dark shadow” over the international reception given to a newly independent Scottish nation,"

Gosh, i hear you saying, that's strong stuff. Who is saying this? well, here's who ....

Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, former first sea lord and chief of naval staff,former chiefs of the defence staff Air Chief Marshal Lord Stirrup, General Lord Walker, Admiral the Lord Boyce and Field Marshal Lord Guthrie; first sea lords and chiefs of the naval staff Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, Admiral Lord West of Spithead, Admiral Sir Nigel Essenhigh, Admiral Sir Jock Slater; former chief of the general staff General Sir Mike Jackson; former chief of the air staff Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire; and former permanent secretary and security and intelligence co-ordinator at the Cabinet office Sir David Omand.

Well , there is a bunch of guys who you can really trust for a balanced unbiased view!!

Next credit where credit is due - I have been just a teeny wee bit critical of the No campaign for being just a tad on the negative side. Here's an example...

"Scottish independence could add £189 a year to energy bills, Government warns"

Now, I am delighted to say they have been listening to me for, lo & behold here's what they say now...

"Working together across the UK means that we can unlock our huge renewables potential and reduce families’ bills by up to £189".

So, let me see,

independence: bills rise by £189

staying together: bills fall by £189

so we're £378 better off in the UK on fuel bills alone.

Now that is such a big deal i'm surprised they only mentioned half of it at the start.

[LJS]

Do the Scots make Jam ? I thought that was an English thing

not only do wee make jam, we also have an amazing song about jam sandwiches - called the jelly piece song. (jeely is jam with no bits, & a piece is a sandwich) Here it is in all its glory - i realise this is a high risk strategy as when all you Englishers hear it you will more than ever want to keep us but here goes.

interestingly (or not) when I was poking about looking for this I found this...

enjoy

[russycarps]

hi comrades

just like to keep you up to speed with the next instalment in project fear's selfless campaign to save Scotland from itself.

brace yourselves... "The SNPs plan to scrap Trident would cast a dark shadow over the international reception given to a newly independent Scottish nation,"

Gosh, i hear you saying, that's strong stuff. Who is saying this? well, here's who ....

Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, former first sea lord and chief of naval staff,former chiefs of the defence staff Air Chief Marshal Lord Stirrup, General Lord Walker, Admiral the Lord Boyce and Field Marshal Lord Guthrie; first sea lords and chiefs of the naval staff Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, Admiral Lord West of Spithead, Admiral Sir Nigel Essenhigh, Admiral Sir Jock Slater; former chief of the general staff General Sir Mike Jackson; former chief of the air staff Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire; and former permanent secretary and security and intelligence co-ordinator at the Cabinet office Sir David Omand.

Well , there is a bunch of guys who you can really trust for a balanced unbiased view!!

Next credit where credit is due - I have been just a teeny wee bit critical of the No campaign for being just a tad on the negative side. Here's an example...

"Scottish independence could add £189 a year to energy bills, Government warns"

Now, I am delighted to say they have been listening to me for, lo & behold here's what they say now...

"Working together across the UK means that we can unlock our huge renewables potential and reduce families bills by up to £189".

So, let me see,

independence: bills rise by £189

staying together: bills fall by £189

so we're £378 better off in the UK on fuel bills alone.

Now that is such a big deal i'm surprised they only mentioned half of it at the start.

You think the Americans will roll out the red carpet for a Scotland that refuses to be a part of NATO?

"If you're not with us, you're against us" is the motto of the USA.

I admire countries that flick the Vs at America. But it's no scare story to say there are consequences for doing so.

[LJS]

You think the Americans will roll out the red carpet for a Scotland that refuses to be a part of NATO?

"If you're not with us, you're against us" is the motto of the USA.

I admire countries that flick the Vs at America. But it's no scare story to say there are consequences for doing so.

yeah, there is a fair debate to be had there. But there are many countries in NATO who do not have nuclear weapons.

But that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is how is it in any way news that a whole bunch of retired military top brass think having lots & lots of WMD is a great idea?

the fact is iScotland is not telling rUK they can't have their nukes ... quite the opposite they woudl like rUK to have their nukes cos we have had them for long enough.

[russycarps]

yeah, there is a fair debate to be had there. But there are many countries in NATO who do not have nuclear weapons.

But that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is how is it in any way news that a whole bunch of retired military top brass think having lots & lots of WMD is a great idea?

the fact is iScotland is not telling rUK they can't have their nukes ... quite the opposite they woudl like rUK to have their nukes cos we have had them for long enough.

I read it as a thinly veiled warning that going independent will upset America.

Scotland is far better placed strategically than Plymouth. And now things are kicking off with Russia it's even more important.

You don't think the nukes are based there just to piss off the Scots do you?

I am hugely against trident, but I'm well aware our relationship with America would dismantle if we got rid of it.

I guess Scots should be warned of the implications too

[LJS]

I read it as a thinly veiled warning that going independent will upset America.

Scotland is far better placed strategically than Plymouth. And now things are kicking off with Russia it's even more important.

You don't think the nukes are based there just to piss off the Scots do you?

I am hugely against trident, but I'm well aware our relationship with America would dismantle if we got rid of it.

I guess Scots should be warned of the implications too

I am no expert on the theory of nuclear deterrence but my understanding was that the point of having our nukes on subs was that there is always one at sea ready to strike so strategically it doesn't really matter where they are based.

Of course, their base would be a potential target in the event of war & it makes strategic & political sense to have that base far away from centres of population. That is the problem with Portsmouth. Inconveniently, quite a lot of voters live there

[eFestivals]

hi comrades

just like to keep you up to speed with the next instalment in project fear's selfless campaign to save Scotland from itself.

man with vested interest says with straight face what's to his vested interest but knows it's quite laughable?

Yeah, that only goes on from one side of the campaign, eh? :lol:

In case you haven't noticed, in the same "sea protection" debate, there's a certain someone saying "we don't need a Navy, there's some mugs to the south of us who'll do that for free".

I wonder which of the two might be giving the more honest answer from their perspective, and also keeping their integrity?

[eFestivals]

I am no expert ...

Perhaps it might be worth trying to become one?

Then you might be able to put away the prejudices that have been force-fed you for so many decades, and recognise that not everything is an English conspiracy against Scotland?

Edited April 15, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I am no expert on the theory of nuclear deterrence but my understanding was that the point of having our nukes on subs was that there is always one at sea ready to strike so strategically it doesn't really matter where they are based.

Of course, their base would be a potential target in the event of war & it makes strategic & political sense to have that base far away from centres of population. That is the problem with Portsmouth. Inconveniently, quite a lot of voters live there

Those bastard English, they've been fucking around with Scotland's natural geography too.

They probably hid the oil in those waters as well.

[russycarps]

I am no expert on the theory of nuclear deterrence but my understanding was that the point of having our nukes on subs was that there is always one at sea ready to strike so strategically it doesn't really matter where they are based.

Of course, their base would be a potential target in the event of war & it makes strategic & political sense to have that base far away from centres of population. That is the problem with Portsmouth. Inconveniently, quite a lot of voters live there

I dont think there are many tory voters in Plymouth The governement could give about as much of a shit about english plebs as scottish plebs, Im sure!

There is always one sub at sea, but there has to be a state of the art port to service the subs.

The sub base is in scotland because of the deep water ports, which in england would have to be artificially created, and the geographical location. A map of the world shows why scotland is perfectly located for the northern atlantic and arctic ocean, which is where much of the skullduggery with russia takes place.

NATO will be significantly weakened and Americans biggest military ally will be significantly weakened if scotland goes independent. What do you think americas reaction will be towards the country responsible for that? What usually happens to countries who defy the USA?

A quick google search shows america is scotlands biggest export marked for Scotch whisky for example. They could make life very difficult for you and I think it's only fair the voters are aware of this.

Personally, I admire countries like venezuala, cuba and all the others that defy america. Scotland may well be joining that list.

Edited April 15, 2014 by russycarps

[LJS]

Perhaps it might be worth trying to become one?

Then you might be able to put away the prejudices that have been force-fed you for so many decades, and recognise that not everything is an English conspiracy against Scotland?

I realise you are an expert on pretty much everything, but I can assure you that you are not an expert on my prejudices. I hope I have not given the impression that I think anything is an English conspiracy. I generally believe the problems with Westminster rule is that they have conspired in favour of the Home Counties. That that does not deliver government appropriate for Scotland is much more of an unintended consequence than a conspiracy.

[LJS]

A couple of thoughts on the nukes thing...

I would have thought Scotland would be expected to sign the nuclear non proliferation treaty. Does that treaty allow countries to have other countries' nukes on their territory?

The Americans weren't terribly keen when Russians wanted to put missiles in Cuba.

Would the UK welcome US nukes on it's soil? I know there were US cruse missiles at Greenham Common in the 1980's but that was Maggie & resulted in loads of protests. How do folk think it would go down now?

[Buff124]

I dont think there are many tory voters in Plymouth

Enough for them to have a Tory MP , apparently

http://www.olivercolvile.org/about-oliver

[LondonTom]

How do folk think it would go down now?

Strongly worded online petitions by the people that care but strong apathy from most of the country.

[LJS]

Oops double post

Edited April 15, 2014 by LJS

[russycarps]

A couple of thoughts on the nukes thing...

I would have thought Scotland would be expected to sign the nuclear non proliferation treaty. Does that treaty allow countries to have other countries' nukes on their territory?

The Americans weren't terribly keen when Russians wanted to put missiles in Cuba.

Would the UK welcome US nukes on it's soil? I know there were US cruse missiles at Greenham Common in the 1980's but that was Maggie & resulted in loads of protests. How do folk think it would go down now?

Those treaties are designed to ensure American global superiority. Those fuckers wrote the treaties! Of course russia cant have nukes in cuba, but america can have nukes on south korean, polish, turkish, israeli, british and god knows where else soil if they choose. And of course british nukes could be kept on scottish soil if it benefits america. That's how the world works.

America rules the world. And they will continue to do so throughout our lifetimes.

The UK has been the american lapdog for years, but that role does bring many benefits that we take for granted. I suspect being a country that is perceived to be hostile towards american interests has a much more uncomfortable existence.

Perhaps you see sticking 2 fingers up to america to be a positive thing (I sure do!) but I wonder how many other scots do?

It is only fair that people realise a yes vote will piss off the richest and most powerful nation on earth, isnt it? (assuming salmond keeps his nuclear promises).

Of course in reality the sub base will remain in scotland. Salmond may be able to take on the chinless wonders in westminster, but is he brave enough to tell america that it is going to lose a vital strategic military asset?

Enough for them to have a Tory MP , apparently

http://www.olivercolvile.org/about-oliver

oops my mistake. Still, the reason the sub base is in scotland is due to the geography (deep ports/proximity to north atlantic/arctic) and nothing to do with a vendetta towards scotland.

[LJS]

(yawns) I never said there was a vendetta.

Edited April 15, 2014 by LJS