The Dirty Independence Question

[Buff124]

Its a historical inevitability that someone would post this:

The latest opinion polls indicate that a large majority in Scotland want more Devo.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Buff124

[russycarps]

(yawns) I never said there was a vendetta.

Ha ha completely ignore the rest. Not even a thank you for the free education you're getting here.

[Comfy Bean]

Yeh it's mad really. Anyone with any kind of understanding of economics would surely realise the best scenario for scotland is devo max. Which is why it's quite frightening to see the 2 scottish fellows in this thread still insisting they will vote for independence, while seemingly being aware of the economic reality of what that will mean.

Though perhaps their personal circumstances mean they will benefit from independence, even though the majority will suffer. A selfish position, but I suppose understandable.

I can understand people who have not bothered to read up on the subject, or who cant grasp the implications, to vote for independence - if I was 18 or whatever I would be voting yes, because I know my 18 year old self wouldnt have bothered to to read up on it, and it would seem like the "rebellious" thing to do.

But any sensible adults, with a family, voting for independence are really being very irresponsible, it seems to me.

It's an interesting experiment, that's for sure. I just thank goodness it will not affect me a jot.

Just catching up on this thread, some interesting stuff. I`m only talking about a very small sample but wanted to add that the majority of people I know with a family who would vote yes would do so in the main because of their kids. Round my way we have 2 of the worst placed Local Authorities in the UK for youth unemployment. Whole communities feel abandoned and there is little or no chance of finding work. There is of course no guarantee that job prospects would improve but when nothing has happened to improve things for so long a change gives people hope.

On the nuclear debate, am I right in saying that there are nuclear weapons based in Scotland but the codes* for these are known only to the American Government ?

* codes is maybe not the word I`m looking for but you know what I mean.

[LJS]

Ha ha completely ignore the rest. Not even a thank you for the free education you're getting here.

sorry, I really don't understand

If you really think I am reading anything here I haven't read elsewhere - you are very mistaken.

Despite Neil's portrayal of me of as a gullible fool who has been seduced by promises of jam galore, I have been carefully considering my decision for ...lets see about 40 years!

For most of that time I have been pro devolution (voted yes in both referenda) but also pro Union.

Many things have led me to change my opinion - the desire to be materially better off is absolutely not one of them. If I was motivated by that I would have been pro independence in the 70's - when Scotland would undeniably have been better off due to North Sea Oil.

So what has changed my mind?

Well there are many things some more significant than others.

I have voted in 8 general elections - in my opinion - not one of these elections has resulted in a government in Westminster that reflects the wishes, desires & principles of the people of Scotland. Let me be clear, I don't mean they haven't reflect my principles, I am happy to accept that the government should be determined by the majority in my country. My country is Scotland.

A lot of folk on here set great store on facts ...it's a fact we can't use the pound,...It's a fact we can't join the EU, Its a fact businesses will desert Scotland in droves, Neil even defended George Robertson when he said Scottish independence would lead to Darth Vadar joining forces with the Daleks to take over the Earth - thank god we won't see that as we will be denied Dr. Who in iScotland.

If you are going to look for posts from me quoting facts about how much better life will be in iScotland, you'll struggle. Because I don't know that it will be & in my opinion the Better Together campaign doesn't really know either. But I am prepared to take the leap of faith & I have lived through enough election campaigns & two devolution campaigns to know that politicians exaggerate & lie.So I am not taken in my Yes Scotland telling me I will be £500 a year better off - any more than I am taken in by better Together saying whatever this week's figure for how much worse off I'll be. (sorry that wasn't grammatically the best sentence i've ever written but hopefully you will get my point.)

So, in my opinion., we can't be certain what Scotland's future will be like whichever way the vote goes;

and, I don't believe we can be certain what Scotland's past would have been like if we had got our independence 20 or 30 years ago. What can we be certain of? Well we can be certain of what has happened in the past 35 years since I first voted in a general election 1979.

We first of all saw the wholesale, deliberate ideologically driven destruction of the entire Scottish industrial manufacturing base, causing the destruction of communities & creating a lost generation for whom work was a distant dream. Meanwhile the loadsmoney culture flourished in the city of London.

We saw the introduction of the unfair & massively unpopular Poll tax in Scotland first as an "experiment" - further dividing society.

We have seen the transformation of the Labour Party from a party, at least in part representing the ordinary worker, to some sort of grotesque Tory Lite. Not due to any pressure from Scotland but because some focus groups in Hampstead & Basildon said they were scared of the big bad socialists.

At least this, combined with the self destruction of the Tories gave us a brief respite from Conservative rule - oh how we celebrated when Tony Romped to victory! (it's true we did!)

The celebrations did not last for long. There was some good stuff - increased investment in the nhs, the minimum wage, devolution (at last) But there was also the bad... the Iraq war - George Bush snapped his fingers & we came running, The continued increase in the divide between the haves & the have nots, & the failure to regulate the bankers which led to the crash.

& now we have David Cameron & poor wee Nicky Clegg. Keeping the gap between rich & poor growing, inflicting the crazy bedroom tax (more ideology over reason) on a Scotland who obviously don't want it.

Meanwhile, we have had a constant stream of revelations about sleaze & corruption at Westminster - now I know this is not limited to English MP's & I know Holyrood is not perfect- but Google Westminster sleaze & Google Hollyrood Sleaze & compare the difference.

Perhaps you'll understand why me & many others are prepared to take the chance that an independent Scotland may be able to do just a wee bit better.

Now I know you can put different interpretation on events than I have- All i am giving you is my view & trying to make you see why I'm not put off by threats of doom & gloom from Better Together.

Just a wee footnote on the nuclear thing, I demonstrated at Faslane against nuclear weapons over 30 years ago, have never changed my mind for a second since & I will rejoice when they leave our soil & if the Americans buy a wee bit less whisky as a result, we'll drink it ourselves - it'll help us to sleep better as Darth Vadar & the Daleks continue their relentless conquest of the earth.

[LJS]

Just catching up on this thread, some interesting stuff. I`m only talking about a very small sample but wanted to add that the majority of people I know with a family who would vote yes would do so in the main because of their kids. Round my way we have 2 of the worst placed Local Authorities in the UK for youth unemployment. Whole communities feel abandoned and there is little or no chance of finding work. There is of course no guarantee that job prospects would improve but when nothing has happened to improve things for so long a change gives people hope.

On the nuclear debate, am I right in saying that there are nuclear weapons based in Scotland but the codes* for these are known only to the American Government ?

* codes is maybe not the word I`m looking for but you know what I mean.

welcome to the debate

Please don't be put off by my long post just after yours ... just getting a few things off my chest

[LJS]

On the nuclear debate, am I right in saying that there are nuclear weapons based in Scotland but the codes* for these are known only to the American Government ?

* codes is maybe not the word I`m looking for but you know what I mean.

I think I'm right in saying that technically Britain can launch trident missiles off its own bat. However, its pretty hard to conceive of a situation where they would launch without the permission of the USA

Edited April 15, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

I hope I have not given the impression that I think anything is an English conspiracy.

you have about where the nukes are currently stationed. You've stated your belief that they are where they are because of some hatred of the Scots by the English, and not because of the reality of Scotland's natural landscape.

If you don't have such prejudices, the likes of me can't flag them up.

I generally believe the problems with Westminster rule is that they have conspired in favour of the Home Counties.

and there you go again.

The yes campaign is largely based on the idea that "the English are ripping us off".

And yet Scotland is the only place in the UK that gets roughly the revenue it generates, year after year after year. That's the opposite to a rip-off.

And guess what? Follow the money! The rest of the UK is supported by the extra money that London and the hone counties generates - the exact opposite, in all facts, of your mis-placed belief of how that region rips off the rest.

There's arguments to be made around that, of how the situation came to be how it is, but nothing of that changes the fact that the home counties are conspiring to the financial benefit of the rest of the UK and not to themselves by giving the rest of the UK money that is generated in London & the home counties.

That that does not deliver government appropriate for Scotland is much more of an unintended consequence than a conspiracy.

Westminster doesn't deliver govt appropriate to any part of the country (the only country round here is the UK BTW. Everything else is a region), but that's due to the stupidity of the electorate and not the govt.

How did Scotland vote in the AV referendum, BTW?

It's a good job that London isn't as me-me-me greed based as Scotland, else the rest of the UK would be fucked.

And if the attitude you want to believe really existed, you wouldn't be having this vote, you wouldn't be having the vote without reference of need to change the voting system within Scotland, and Scotland would be getting tax revenue at its population size (the 'fair' amount by sharing) and not at revenue raised (the 'fair' amount on a me-me-me basis).

Don't go thinking that there's much I think good about how the the UK works currently, btw. But what I do know is that declaring my bedroom as the Republic of Neil does nothing to change what is outside my bedroom, cannot alter the reality of my bedroom, nor does it correct my own warped beliefs within my bedroom.

[eFestivals]

A couple of thoughts on the nukes thing...

I would have thought Scotland would be expected to sign the nuclear non proliferation treaty. Does that treaty allow countries to have other countries' nukes on their territory?

Yes.

Every NATO country *HAS TO ALLOW* nukes into their territory.

There's a bit of a big issue for the yes campaign just there. Which is their statements is going to prove to be the whopper?

Would the UK welcome US nukes on it's soil?

it already does.

I know there were US cruse missiles at Greenham Common in the 1980's but that was Maggie & resulted in loads of protests. How do folk think it would go down now?

same as it went down then. Nothing has changed.

But don't let the facts get in the way of voting yes, eh?

[eFestivals]

The latest opinion polls indicate that a large majority in Scotland want more Devo.

careful now, you'll have LJS telling you you're not allowed to tell him what Scotland might want, even when it's true.

But that's not news. It's the same result as it's been for years.

Meanwhile, the latest opinion polls say what ever poll ever taken has said - that the people of Scotland don't want independence.

Will you come back with words about "the grassroots campaign", or "the different view from the streets", or perhaps even "the polls are lying" (despite them being 100% accurate with 45% for the SNP in the last Scottish elections)? Or might you be smarter than so many yes campaigners? I hope so.

[LJS]

One thing that not even the craziest No campaigner questions is that Scotland is a nation.

Well done on oudoing them?

[eFestivals]

I`m only talking about a very small sample but wanted to add that the majority of people I know with a family who would vote yes would do so in the main because of their kids.

That's an interesting view, tho isn't it actually the case that 'kids' (young people) are one of the groupings most opposed to independence? (I believe that's the case, tho I'm not certain).

Meanwhile, the yes campaign likes to flag up "the rise of UKIP" as one of the reasons to leave the UK, and yet it's youngsters who are least likely to vote for them, too. And mostly anyway the people voting for UKIP are doing the same as a large number of SNP voters, and simply making a protest vote against the other parties.

[eFestivals]

I have voted in 8 general elections - in my opinion - not one of these elections has resulted in a government in Westminster that reflects the wishes, desires & principles of the people of Scotland.

I've voted (or been able to vote) in 7 elections, and not once has it resulted in a government in Westminster that reflects the wishes, desires & principles of the people of Neil's bedroom. Perhaps I should declare UDI?

It's a nation's elections, not the elections of a region. That simple fact is not in your thinking for some reason.

Your idea is held together by a refusal to accept Scotland's place within the UK, and not the other way around. Logically it cannot work any other way.

And so your thinking is not quite how you've presented it. Everything comes from your belief of Scotland as already sovereign or that it should be - and then you make up the case to support that.

Let me be clear, I don't mean they haven't reflect my principles, I am happy to accept that the government should be determined by the majority in my country. My country is Scotland.

As this sentence proves.

You've been conned by nationalists of the same ilk as the BNP and UKIP. "Your country" has not been Scotland for 300 years.

A lot of folk on here set great store on facts ...it's a fact we can't use the pound,...It's a fact we can't join the EU, Its a fact businesses will desert Scotland in droves, Neil even defended George Robertson when he said Scottish independence would lead to Darth Vadar joining forces with the Daleks to take over the Earth - thank god we won't see that as we will be denied Dr. Who in iScotland.

It's a fact that you can't use the pound unless rUK says so - unless you're going to tell me what a currency is to support a belief in your 'right' to it, and then I can laugh an awful lot.

You can't join the EU by current EU rules. Even the yes campaign's preferred 'expert' says so (but the yes campaign put their fingers in their ears to that bit and go "nah nah nah we're not listening" ).

It's a fact that some businesses will have to 'desert' Scotland, as will the much more important associated tax revenue.

And all I defended about Robertson was the fact of NATO being NATO )(would anyone expect them to suddenly be the Red Army? ) - but please do make up some bollocks as a case for yes, it's what yes does.

[LJS]

That's an interesting view, tho isn't it actually the case that 'kids' (young people) are one of the groupings most opposed to independence? (I believe that's the case, tho I'm not certain).

Meanwhile, the yes campaign likes to flag up "the rise of UKIP" as one of the reasons to leave the UK, and yet it's youngsters who are least likely to vote for them, too. And mostly anyway the people voting for UKIP are doing the same as a large number of SNP voters, and simply making a protest vote against the other parties.

When the SNP is the party of government & are re-elected with an increased majority, that is hardly a protest vote.

[eFestivals]

know that politicians exaggerate & lie.

and yet you can't bring yourself to comment on the yes campaign's lies. Why is that?

We first of all saw the wholesale, deliberate ideologically driven destruction of the entire Scottish industrial manufacturing base, causing the destruction of communities & creating a lost generation for whom work was a distant dream.

those bastar5d English, doing that to just Scotland. Oh, wait...

Meanwhile the loadsmoney culture flourished in the city of London.

And Scotland has better than average UK unemployment. Those English bastards, making Scot's toil for a wage.

We saw the introduction of the unfair & massively unpopular Poll tax in Scotland first as an "experiment" - further dividing society.

'First' only for practical reasons, but don't let the facts get in the way of your victimhood.

We have seen the transformation of the Labour Party from a party, at least in part representing the ordinary worker, to some sort of grotesque Tory Lite.

while Scots voted for another party that's not as left-leaning as the Labour Party Scotland abandoned to a large extent.

Not due to any pressure from Scotland but because some focus groups in Hampstead & Basildon said they were scared of the big bad socialists.

say the SNP voters, also scared of those nasty socialists.

[eFestivals]

There was some good stuff - increased investment in the nhs, the minimum wage, devolution (at last)

all those good things that the nasty English have taken away6 form you again. Oh, wait.... The nasty English have taken those things from England, but not Scotland.

We're gonna punish those Scots with more money for better services. That'll teach 'em!

& now we have David Cameron & poor wee Nicky Clegg.

where Scotland voted more against the Labour Party than the English did - and so helped put that coalition in power more-so than the English did.

Inconvenient those facts, eh?

Meanwhile, we have had a constant stream of revelations about sleaze & corruption at Westminster

While Salmond cuts Souter some fantastic deals, and lies to the Scottish people about his meetings with Murdoch!

Still, at least the people of Edinburgh can get the tram to work each morning, eh?

- now I know this is not limited to English MP's & I know Holyrood is not perfect- but Google Westminster sleaze & Google Hollyrood Sleaze & compare the difference.

google holyrood sleaze and google Scottish council sleaze and compare the difference.

Perhaps you'll understand why me & many others are prepared to take the chance that an independent Scotland may be able to do just a wee bit better.

and if the yes side wins by just one vote and doesn't do better, what happens in Scotland?

That's the question that yes-ers don't like to think about.

Just a wee footnote on the nuclear thing, I demonstrated at Faslane against nuclear weapons over 30 years ago, have never changed my mind for a second since & I will rejoice when they leave our soil

iScotland's 'no' to nukes is final.

rUK's 'no' to CU is bluff and bullying.

Think on!

Edited April 16, 2014 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Just catching up on this thread, some interesting stuff. I`m only talking about a very small sample but wanted to add that the majority of people I know with a family who would vote yes would do so in the main because of their kids. Round my way we have 2 of the worst placed Local Authorities in the UK for youth unemployment. Whole communities feel abandoned and there is little or no chance of finding work. There is of course no guarantee that job prospects would improve but when nothing has happened to improve things for so long a change gives people hope.

On the nuclear debate, am I right in saying that there are nuclear weapons based in Scotland but the codes* for these are known only to the American Government ?

* codes is maybe not the word I`m looking for but you know what I mean.

how will job prospects improve in the event of independence? Is this just in relation to the cut in corporation tax and the all the hordes of companies that will supposedly set up shop in scotland? Utter madness if so.

Gambling with your kids future by splitting away from one of the richest nations on the planet seems pretty irresponsible to me. And then pretending you are making the decision for your kids too!

There are many good reasons to vote yes, but purely for economic reasons is the flimsiest of all.

When you are dead and buried, your kids will have to pay the price for your gamble. There are many many many countries who would love to have the peace and prosperity scotland has. And you are going to gamble all that away just for a tiny chance of getting a little bit more prosperity. Amazing really.

Edited April 16, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

One thing that not even the craziest No campaigner questions is that Scotland is a nation.

Well done on oudoing them?

yeah, the arbitarily drawn lines of any 'nation' have such massive meaning.

I refer you to the list of nation stations at thwe UN. Care to point out to me where Scotland is? (clue: it's in the same place as East Anglia).

All of your intention to vote yes comes from the planted idea that you are a somehow-special Scot, and not a human being.

[eFestivals]

When the SNP is the party of government & are re-elected with an increased majority, that is hardly a protest vote.

and yet their main policy wasn't supported by well over one third of those who voted for them.

And half of Scotland cares so little for the Scottish Parliament they don't vote.

Edited April 16, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

here's what Better Together says...

"We passionately believe the best choice for our future is to remain a strong and proud nation"

[eFestivals]

here's what Better Together says...

"We passionately believe the best choice for our future is to remain a strong and proud nation"

And what does yes say? Oooooo, it sounds identical.

And yet the yes-ers have failed to notice they don't have a nation for the last 300 years, nor do they (currently, at least) have support for creating a new nation.

[LJS]

Looking forwards to cheering east Anglia on in the Commonwealth games. What's their flag like again? & I just can't remember how their national anthem goes.

Weren't they unlucky not to qualify for the world cup? And how about the 6 nations at rugby?

Yeah we are just like east Anglia...except for the mountains.

[eFestivals]

Looking forwards to cheering east Anglia on in the Commonwealth games. What's their flag like again? & I just can't remember how their national anthem goes.

Weren't they unlucky not to qualify for the world cup? And how about the 6 nations at rugby?

Yeah we are just like east Anglia...except for the mountains.

I must have missed the bit where the Commonwealth, FIFA and the WRC all co0mbined and became the sovereign state of the UK. Perhaps you can point me towards something...?

National anthem? That requires a nation. You don't have one, tho you do have a song you adopted in the 1980s for sporting events by your region.

[russycarps]

Looking forwards to cheering east Anglia on in the Commonwealth games. What's their flag like again? & I just can't remember how their national anthem goes.

Weren't they unlucky not to qualify for the world cup? And how about the 6 nations at rugby?

Yeah we are just like east Anglia...except for the mountains.

Sorry to disappoint, but scotland has no sovereignty and no external recognition.

Nor does england, wales or northern island, but you dont see us getting our sporrans in a twist about it

[eFestivals]

I guess I should point out that last post is said tongue in cheek, as sense of humour failures are not uncommon on this issue.

I'm simply stating the simple fact that from the official point of view of the UK and the rest of the world (aside from a few organisations such as FIFA, and for a variety of different reasons for each of those), there is no nation called Scotland.

Nations, in all practical and real terms, are defined by sovereign-statehood.

This is proven even by Scots who wish to see Scotland as a nation, because it's very unlikely there's even one who uses the same basis as they're applying to Scotland for all of the rest of the world.

So in all official senses, the region of the UK called Scotland wishes to become a nation for the first time in 300(ish) years.

[eFestivals]

I've been thinking over the Better Together 'campaign' (there is no campaign), and am starting to come to the conclusion that's it's probably much cleverer than yes campaign want to credit it for.

And if I'm right with that, yes are fucked.

So far we've had the "practical to make it clear" no-to-CU (which no voter, yes or no, would forgive being kept quiet), but followed by a mass of statements of the obvious - NATO giving a NATO perspective, the navy guy giving his navy view, etc.

We've also had the "anonymous" minister (Hammond) saying that "CU is up for negotiation just as Faslane and nukes will be". And we've also now had Hammond publicly say how everything is up for negotiation.

There's clearly a theme there, but what the theme is is less clear.

The obvious one is the obvious one, that it should all be taken as straightforwards words. That's how yes have taken it - tho they mostly choose half of the statements, the half that says what they want to say and not the half that doesn't. Such as the "minister said CU is up for negotiation" bit but forget the following "in exchange for Faslane" bit.

And yet if you take it straight, eventually, with 6 months still to run, people will become aware that the 'yes' side have bullshitted, by hiding half of what was said (just as they do about "all the debt is the UK's debt").

Edited April 16, 2014 by eFestivals