The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I put that very poorly, will explain further.....

[eFestivals]

So, we have a negotiating position for each side asking the other to give up what they say is not negotiable.

We also have statements of the obvious, giving a view at the UK extreme of the argument.

The first puts in people's minds better how any negotiation will work. The second puts in people's minds that the rUK has a view at one extreme of the argument.

With 6 months to run, at some point nearly every Scot will have to confront the truth (which they're certainly not currently) that the SNP have a view at the other extreme of the argument.

And that the settlement will end up somewhere in the middle.

(that's the important bit!)

The statements from the UK's side often seem crude, but I'm starting to think the crudeness is not about the words uttered, but about the slap-about-the-head effect they're designed to trigger down the line, once any laughter at their ridiculousness has subsided.

Edited April 16, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Because all evidence suggests that yes don't have a hope unless people keep swallowing the white paper as fact.

[Buff124]

Neil... you're sounding a bit, well, bewildered. Go and have a lie down mate. Or just listen to some music. Here's some - a pal playing Pink Floyd. Hope you get better soon. Yrs, buffalo 124

[eFestivals]

Neil... you're sounding a bit, well, bewildered.

well, perhaps.

I know what i'm trying to say, but I know I've done a shit job at trying to do it.

What i'm saying is that yes has been given a clean run, without its own ideas being given the sort of in-depth scrutiny by the people of Scotland that the people of Scotland deserve them to have.

Yes, I know that plenty of media knock 'em down, but so far all that's really done is made lots of people run around with their fingers in their ears going "nah nah nah I'm not listening".

At some point those people are going to stop doing that, and think instead.

At the point they do they'll know full-well that how things will pan out in reality will be somewhere between forever-doom and lashings of lovely jam, rather than the all-jam version that a lot of people are believing right now.

--

Anyway, that's what i'm thinking is very possibly BT's plan. And quite possibly in the mix is an instruction from the yanks that NATO requires Faslane, and that might well fuck iScotland up* one way or another.

(* I don't mean that nastily, just how I see that impacting)

Edited April 16, 2014 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

how will job prospects improve in the event of independence? Is this just in relation to the cut in corporation tax and the all the hordes of companies that will supposedly set up shop in scotland? Utter madness if so.

Gambling with your kids future by splitting away from one of the richest nations on the planet seems pretty irresponsible to me. And then pretending you are making the decision for your kids too!

There are many good reasons to vote yes, but purely for economic reasons is the flimsiest of all.

When you are dead and buried, your kids will have to pay the price for your gamble. There are many many many countries who would love to have the peace and prosperity scotland has. And you are going to gamble all that away just for a tiny chance of getting a little bit more prosperity. Amazing really.

I`m half thinking you may be pulling my leg Russy.........I said in the post you quoted that " There is no guarantee that job prospects would improve ? I never once mentioned money or prosperity - you have several times . I mentioned jobs and opportunities. Your bringing up the prosperity Scotland has. I`ll assume you either live in Aberdeen or are on the wind up ! The number of food bank`s in Scotland has increased 5 fold in the last year alone. We have them where I live. Don`t take my word for it, there is a quote from a chap from Oxfam in the press today.

I`m fully aware that there are pro`s and con`s to both Yes and No and am interested in the debate as a whole. The fact you have already leapt to....when this gamble fails and I`m dead my kids will pay blah blah blah would suggest that you have no interest in the debate as you`ve already got it all worked out.

I find it hard to understand why anyone would see this opportunity as a bad thing ( however they choose to vote ). Is everyone proud of the the way things have gone recently and the actions of the UK Government(s). At the very least, the fact that we are thinking about it and considering all the options and possibilities " may " at least keep our politicians on their toes a bit ! I`d guess they would want us all to fear change and allow them to carry on as they see fit.There seems to be quite a bit of focus on here on the SNP which is natural and fair enough but worth taking into account the views and ideas that the Green Party have on all of this. It`s not all about money,Scotland v England or Alex Salmond. Plenty of folks up here don`t have a lot of faith in Alex Salmond but do have faith in the people of Scotland and are interested in the possibilities of a fairer society.

I`m not sure if everyone on here would view the Scottish Parliament as a success ? It appears to me to be more efficient and transparent than the one in London although it is still full of w*nkers of course !

Edited April 16, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

I`m half thinking you may be pulling my leg Russy.........I said in the post you quoted that " There is no guarantee that job prospects would improve ? I never once mentioned money or prosperity - you have several times . I mentioned jobs and opportunities. Your bringing up the prosperity Scotland has. I`ll assume you either live in Aberdeen or are on the wind up ! The number of food bank`s in Scotland has increased 5 fold in the last year alone. We have them where I live. Don`t take my word for it, there is a quote from a chap from Oxfam in the press today.

I`m fully aware that there are pro`s and con`s to both Yes and No and am interested in the debate as a whole. The fact you have already leapt to....when this gamble fails and I`m dead my kids will pay blah blah blah would suggest that you have no interest in the debate as you`ve already got it all worked out.

I find it hard to understand why anyone would see this opportunity as a bad thing ( however they choose to vote ). Is everyone proud of the the way things have gone recently and the actions of the UK Government(s). At the very least, the fact that we are thinking about it and considering all the options and possibilities " may " at least keep our politicians on their toes a bit ! I`d guess they would want us all to fear change and allow them to carry on as they see fit.There seems to be quite a bit of focus on here on the SNP which is natural and fair enough but worth taking into account the views and ideas that the Green Party have on all of this. It`s not all about money,Scotland v England or Alex Salmond. Plenty of folks up here don`t have a lot of faith in Alex Salmond but do have faith in the people of Scotland and are interested in the possibilities of a fairer society.

I`m not sure if everyone on here would view the Scottish Parliament as a success ? It appears to me to be more efficient and transparent than the one in London although it is still full of w*nkers of course !

I've explained on numerous occasions I am not voting yes to get rich quick, nor to annoint Alex Salmond as the glorious lifetime president. I've also made it clear that I am not certain things will be better but I'm prepared to give it a go - like you largely for my children's sake.

This tends to be met with accusations that i have fallen for the lying Bribes of the SNP etc. If I suggest Westminster has not served Scotland well - I am told that I am claiming there is an anti Scottish vendetta - search as you may you will find I have never made any such claim. My opinion is Westminster doesn't care enough about Scotland either to care about its interests or to have a Vendetta against us.

Edited April 16, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

well, perhaps.

I know what i'm trying to say, but I know I've done a shit job at trying to do it.

What i'm saying is that yes has been given a clean run, without its own ideas being given the sort of in-depth scrutiny by the people of Scotland that the people of Scotland deserve them to have.

Yes, I know that plenty of media knock 'em down, but so far all that's really done is made lots of people run around with their fingers in their ears going "nah nah nah I'm not listening".

At some point those people are going to stop doing that, and think instead.

At the point they do they'll know full-well that how things will pan out in reality will be somewhere between forever-doom and lashings of lovely jam, rather than the all-jam version that a lot of people are believing right now.

--

Anyway, that's what i'm thinking is very possibly BT's plan. And quite possibly in the mix is an instruction from the yanks that NATO requires Faslane, and that might well fuck iScotland up* one way or another.

(* I don't mean that nastily, just how I see that impacting)

[LJS]

This is from the Scotsman which is generally about as anti independence as it gets. the day after Alex Salmond,s speech to the SNp conference it's front page was a picture of Oor Alec with a headline about Nigel Ffffarage demanding an Independent Scotland should have a referendum to quit the EU.

The fact they are running this cartoon shows the low regard the no campaign is held in even by its supporters.

there has also been a poll published today showing Scots would like to see a more positive campaign from better together by a margin of 66% to 18%

health warning: the poll was comissioned by yes Scotland & does feature a rather leading question - just to show I am trying to be fair here it is:-

The Better Together campaign, which is seeking a No vote in the referendum, has been criticised for pursuing a negative campaign - including claims that Scotland would not be able to watch Dr Who, would be ejected from the European Union, would lose the pandas from Edinburgh Zoo, and would not be able to share the pound. Would you like to see Better Together outline a more positive case for the United Kingdom?

Now, just to be clear, I think that is a somewhat leading question but the margin who say yes in response seems to me to indicate that there is a fair level of dissatisfaction with the No campaign.

[Buff124]

I think I get what you're saying neil

In his best selling medieaval guide to being a suzeraine, 'The Prince' , Machiavelli advised newly established overlords to get what he called the 'severities' out of the way early doors.

Likewise with the Better Together campaign's 'unpalatable truths'. Be upfront about it. Leaves plenty time to play up the love bombing over the summer during the formal referendum campaign.

However, as Machiavelli would tell ya if he was still around, every strategy carries risks. The risk here is one of credibility. Both campaign machines are telling the electorate what *could* happen in the event(s) of a Yes or a No vote. In a sense they're both right. All things are possible, to half quote Robert Anton Wilson.

Credibility, or trust, then become a fairly important factor. Which narrative will stand up to voters' sometimes confused and irrational scrutiny ? The Jam Tomorrow one, or the Penury if You Leave/We'll think About Handing More Power Over if You Stay ones ? If either BT or Yes lose sufficient credibility then the game is up, and Hammond's comments on currency union has damaged BT's credibility.

It *could* come down to a combination of

A) one side being generally perceived by the electorate as the least mis-trusted;

B )enough of the electorate being content with their existing access to limited jam supplies; and

C)how many of the jamless will vote.

All with the usual caveat that polling shows a clear majority against the independence option offered in the referendum.

[LJS]

I think this is called for

[russycarps]

I`m half thinking you may be pulling my leg Russy.........I said in the post you quoted that " There is no guarantee that job prospects would improve ? I never once mentioned money or prosperity - you have several times . I mentioned jobs and opportunities. Your bringing up the prosperity Scotland has. I`ll assume you either live in Aberdeen or are on the wind up ! The number of food bank`s in Scotland has increased 5 fold in the last year alone. We have them where I live. Don`t take my word for it, there is a quote from a chap from Oxfam in the press today.

I`m fully aware that there are pro`s and con`s to both Yes and No and am interested in the debate as a whole. The fact you have already leapt to....when this gamble fails and I`m dead my kids will pay blah blah blah would suggest that you have no interest in the debate as you`ve already got it all worked out.

I find it hard to understand why anyone would see this opportunity as a bad thing ( however they choose to vote ). Is everyone proud of the the way things have gone recently and the actions of the UK Government(s). At the very least, the fact that we are thinking about it and considering all the options and possibilities " may " at least keep our politicians on their toes a bit ! I`d guess they would want us all to fear change and allow them to carry on as they see fit.There seems to be quite a bit of focus on here on the SNP which is natural and fair enough but worth taking into account the views and ideas that the Green Party have on all of this. It`s not all about money,Scotland v England or Alex Salmond. Plenty of folks up here don`t have a lot of faith in Alex Salmond but do have faith in the people of Scotland and are interested in the possibilities of a fairer society.

I`m not sure if everyone on here would view the Scottish Parliament as a success ? It appears to me to be more efficient and transparent than the one in London although it is still full of w*nkers of course !

Are you suggesting scotland is not a prosperous "country"??? My god....do I really need to quote economic statistics at you to prove that you are incredibly lucky to live there. Do you want to know how scottish GDP compares in the world rankings? Unemployment rates?

So you are saying this isnt enough. You want MORE! You think scots deserve more more more!

The irony is, everything points towards your greedy decision having the opposite effect.

LJS's vaguely romantic reasons for scottish independence I can get along with. Your greed is not so palatable.

Edited April 16, 2014 by russycarps

[LJS]

I think the credibility thing is important.

Although Better Together spokesmen tend to start with ... "no one is denying Scotland can be a viable independent country" ... they then follow that with a big BUT & some statement that basically says Scotland can not be a viable independent country or if it can it'll be a shite one.

They also appear not to be prepared to concede that even a few words of the god knows how many in the 650 pages of the White Paper are true. Note the use of the word "appears" - appearances are as important as substance.

There are also the personalities - Better Together are most often represented By Alistair Darling - tainted to some extent by his stint as chancellor in the doomed Brown administration & frankly, in my opinion. a mediocre speaker who frequently appears flustered & hesitant.

Next is Alistair Carmichael - now he seems a really nice guy- I've met him a couple of times, but he is as inspirational as a wet night in Drumnadrochit & he too carries baggage - not everyone in Scotland is enamoured with the Lib Dems leaping into bed with the Tories.

On the other side, you have Oor Alec - & we've established long ago that he is not whiter than white - but he is articulate, quick-witted & a skilled debater. David Cameron has recognised this & has no intention of going within a million miles of a debate with Alec.

2nd string to Alec is Nicola Sturgeon. Opinion again is divided on her but it seems to me she performs better than either of the BT spokesmen.

Now, let me be clear, my view is we should decide on issues not personalities... but sadly that is not the way the world works so it will make a difference.

As a little side show we have Tommy Sheridan & George Galloway paddling their lovably eccentric Canoes for the YES/NO vote respectively. God alone knows what effects they will have. But if they can get these 2 together for a debate ... that would be compulsive viewing.

[LJS]

LJS's vaguely romantic reasons for scottish independence I can get along with. Your greed is not so palatable.

Russycarps, Appreciate your vote of confidence in my high moral principles

But i don't see the greed you appear to be accusing Confynumb of. Quite the contrary it seems pretty clear he is not thinking about voting yes on the basis of promises of Jam Galore. i have read his post 3 times looking for evidence of greed & there is none, not a sausage, bugger all.

It's a bit like that time when you said all Scots are whingeing scroungers, I mean that was right out of order. Or like when you said we would be invaded by Russia if we kicked trident out.

[russycarps]

Forget about Russia, it's America who will be out to get you!

That fellow was taking about voting yes for his kids future, then talked about food banks and unemployment levels. His point being that a yes vote will somehow remove the need for food banks and ensure his kids will have jobs handed to them.

[russycarps]

Oh and I found out today that sporrans are made from otter fur, you monsters

[Comfy Bean]

Are you suggesting scotland is not a prosperous "country"??? My god....do I really need to quote economic statistics at you to prove that you are incredibly lucky to live there. Do you want to know how scottish GDP compares in the world rankings? Unemployment rates?

So you are saying this isnt enough. You want MORE! You think scots deserve more more more!

The irony is, everything points towards your greedy decision having the opposite effect.

LJS's vaguely romantic reasons for scottish independence I can get along with. Your greed is not so palatable.

Oh Russy, play fair ! I have posted twice in this thread and mentioned money once when I said " It`s not about the money ". On the other hand, in your last couple of posts you can hardly go a sentence without bringing up prosperity, money, my kids will pay, gambling, greed etc.

My greed ???? Please be serious and where did I say Scotland " deserves " anything. I did mention a fairer society, the issues being brought to the independence debate by the Green Party, the fact that food banks in Scotland have increased 5 fold in a year according to Oxfam and I raised the possibility that the Scottish Parliament COULD ?? be seen as more efficient ( I meant in the time taken to get things done ) and transparent eg on expenses than the one in London .Do you have a view on what I actually said or is this just about who can shout the loudest for you ? Have you seen the Green`s take on things ? any view on the increase in food banks ?

I take your point on our unemployment rates ( I now realise you don`t live in Scotland ) but as I`ve mentioned I live in an area where youth unemployment is amongst the worst in the UK and I`m interested in what both sides have to say on this. In rare moments when my greed subsides I like to think of the next generation as a few of them live with me.

[LJS]

Forget about Russia, it's America who will be out to get you!

That fellow was taking about voting yes for his kids future, then talked about food banks and unemployment levels. His point being that a yes vote will somehow remove the need for food banks and ensure his kids will have jobs handed to them.

not what he said. if you are not clear what someone has said, I suggest you ask them & not put your own interpretation on it.

please, stop putting words into other people's mouths.

[LJS]

Oh and I found out today that sporrans are made from otter fur, you monsters

not all of them

some are made from the Scalps of Englishmen, who have mistakenly walked into Glasgow pubs on a Friday night.

[LJS]

LJS: Blue is a nice colour

Neil: How can you say red is a nice colour? it is horrible. Anyway it is our red & you cant have it.

Comfortably numb: I quite like yellow. I mean other folk are free to disagree but I like it

Russycarps: I can accept LJS liking purple even though he is colour blind but you liking beige - is there not enough beige already - & you want more

[russycarps]

How would Scotland becoming independent remove the need for food banks? Are you saying the union with the UK is the reason for the Scottish food banks?

[russycarps]

Oh and where I live youth unemployment is 35.8% (2011 figures). The worst in the whole of Britain.

But I'm not demanding an independent England.

[russycarps]

And we've never voted for the torys here either!

[Comfy Bean]

How would Scotland becoming independent remove the need for food banks? Are you saying the union with the UK is the reason for the Scottish food banks?

It wouldn`t. No, I`m not.

[Comfy Bean]

Oh and where I live youth unemployment is 35.8% (2011 figures). The worst in the whole of Britain.

But I'm not demanding an independent England.

That is shit. As mentioned it is also a major issue round my way. I`m not demanding anything either. I`m happy that investment is being promised by both sides of our debate to fund modern apprenticeships.