The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

And we've never voted for the torys here either!

Agreed

[russycarps]

But you say you and other people you know are voting yes for your kids. How will they benefit from independence then?

At the moment they live in a country of fabulous prosperity, security and opportunity. Yet you would gamble with that, for what exactly?

[LJS]

Oh and where I live youth unemployment is 35.8% (2011 figures). The worst in the whole of Britain.

But I'm not demanding an independent England.

Not quite sure what your point is here- no one here has based their whole argument for independence on unemployment or food banks.

When England makes up the overwhelming majority of the UK independence for England would clearly make relatively little difference. but there is nothing to stop anyone seeking it if they wish. As far as I am aware there is no demand for it.

There is a significant desire for Scottish independence which is why we are having this debate.

I used to take the view unity between the " working classes" (in its broadest sense ) throughout the UK was more important than independence for Scotland. However things have changed so much with the destruction of most of the traditional industries (throughout the UK ) & the complete absence of any significant & meaningful left of centre political party, I have given up on achieving that in the UK.

I just cannot see how things will change for the better in terms of social justice & equality in the uk. No guarantee it will in iScotland either but in my judgement there is a better chance. I fully accept I may be wrong.

If more people in this debate accepted they could be wrong it would be a better debate in my opinion.

[LJS]

But you say you and other people you know are voting yes for your kids. How will they benefit from independence then?

At the moment they live in a country of fabulous prosperity, security and opportunity. Yet you would gamble with that, for what exactly?

fabulous prosperity? you have both been going on about unemployment rates & food kitchens. the UK has fabulous prosperity for the rich and the gap between rich & poor is rising year on year.

But you are right, we do live in a prosperous country compared with most of the world - I just think we could use that prosperity better - & I've given up on that happening in the uk.

[Comfy Bean]

But you say you and other people you know are voting yes for your kids. How will they benefit from independence then?

At the moment they live in a country of fabulous prosperity, security and opportunity. Yet you would gamble with that, for what exactly?

I don`t recognise your description of the country I live in but it`s all about opinions.I do of course recognise that there are many worse off than us but is that as high as we should be aiming ? It`s at best sweeping to say we have fabulous prosperity in my opinion but we have been over that. Security fair enough and opportunity is something that I think independence " could " offer more of. It has already offered us all the chance to put some thought into things and have the debate which is surely better than sitting back doing nothing whatever the outcome.

[russycarps]

You are aware that Scotland getting more than they already have, means somewhere else will be getting less.

You admit Scotland is prosperous and admit you want even more. That is horribly greedy. Why do Scots deserve more than others?

I note your emotional "I'm doing it for my kids!" Get out clause.

So fuck everyone else's kids then?

Scottish kids are more important than other nationalities to you, is that it?

Greed, the most shameful reason of all to vote yes. Fair play for admitting it though

[LJS]

You are aware that Scotland getting more than they already have, means somewhere else will be getting less.

You admit Scotland is prosperous and admit you want even more. That is horribly greedy. Why do Scots deserve more than others?

I note your emotional "I'm doing it for my kids!" Get out clause.

So fuck everyone else's kids then?

Scottish kids are more important than other nationalities to you, is that it?

Greed, the most shameful reason of all to vote yes. Fair play for admitting it though

please, sit down, have a cup of coffee, read what he said. then see if you can manage a sensible response.

[russycarps]

please, sit down, have a cup of coffee, read what he said. then see if you can manage a sensible response.

I'm not surprised you are struggling to accept the truth of his position. It is rather unpalatable isn't it.

Greed is a horrible thing.

"SCOTLAND is one of the wealthiest nations in the world, ranked 14th, and outstrips the UK on international performance, according to updated Scottish Government figures."

Yet his kids deserve MORE than this?? He is risking his kids prosperity for EVEN MORE wealth! Amazing.

Edited April 17, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

there has also been a poll published today showing Scots would like to see a more positive campaign from better together by a margin of 66% to 18%

and there's been a poll published today showing that everyone would like to see a less laughable campaign from yes by a margin of 99.9999% to 0.0001%.

But yeah, it's only BT that are doing the bullshit thing, eh?

'Yes' loves to tell Scotland about its Nobel winning economist, but it forgets to tell Scotland that he called Greece wrongly - both economically and politically.

He said there'd be jam and more jam for Greece, and what have they got? What he's got is a bad rep, and so is working now in one of the few places he can get it.

And what's he said for Scotland? Jam, just like he said for Greece.

Perhaps he's right this time, who knows? But perhaps he's not too. He's certainly shown both his political and economic naivety for how things work in the real world.

[eFestivals]

The risk here is one of credibility.

Nope. For that risk to exist, people have to be listening, rather than dismissing out of hand. There has to be debate, and not the sucking up of promises of jam.

Where is the equal scruitinty of yes? There is none.

The only risk that BT is carrying is that the people of Scotland will decide to remain dumb (while shouting 'freedom' and watching Mel on-screen ) rather than properly scrutinise what yes are saying.

There's plenty of time. Yes campaigners are already just about declaring victory (as well as going round saying there's 80% support ), despite there not being a single instance ever of majority support for independence.

All the problems are currently with yes and not no.

Both campaign machines are telling the electorate what *could* happen in the event(s) of a Yes or a No vote. In a sense they're both right. All things are possible

Correct.

And yet apparently it's only BT which are making the ridiculous statements - that certainly seems to be, from here, what Scotland is saying (and is definitely what LJS is saying in this very thread).

With a more detached view and no horse in the race, the view is very VERY different. It's just as laughable from both.

If it's possible for Scots to have the same detachment and thought, yes is certainly fucked because it can't bring people round to the idea of independence without promises of cash as well.

Credibility, or trust, then become a fairly important factor. Which narrative will stand up to voters' sometimes confused and irrational scrutiny ?

This is exactly what I'm getting at. So far, 'yes' is not being properly scrutinised. Until no started to come back with stuff, it was sucked up by plenty as a statement of fact.

As I've said, i've been reading an awful lot of newspaper comments - and I've seen the change. With CU, for example, it started off as "we're having the pound, guaranteed", but now it's changed.

The change has its own bullshit tho - which will fade much the same - of a claim of no debts without a CU, and all based within taking half of a UK govt statement as fact and pretending the 2nd half of that statement was never said.

But "no debt" has its own consequences back on iScotland (in much more than a bad rep as a bill-payer) - which would be no assets; no BoE gold, no BoE foreign currency, no money from the current account. That means that iScotland couldn't even pay the first month's wages. No debts is the least likely thing of any settlement, as iScotland would start it's life bankrupt and go downhill from there (it'd make tory cuts look like a spending party).

All these things are going to become clear.

The Jam Tomorrow one, or the Penury if You Leave/We'll think About Handing More Power Over if You Stay ones ? If either BT or Yes lose sufficient credibility then the game is up, and Hammond's comments on currency union has damaged BT's credibility.

Then it's also damaged the yes claim of no Faslane and a nuke-free Scotland and NATO membership.

You Scots just love to hear half a sentence, don't you?

All with the usual caveat that polling shows a clear majority against the independence option offered in the referendum.

Yep.

The way it looks right now is that yes have already come in their pants, before girlie even has her knickers off.

[eFestivals]

They also appear not to be prepared to concede that even a few words of the god knows how many in the 650 pages of the White Paper are true. Note the use of the word "appears" - appearances are as important as substance.

But not a single thing is. They're not "true", they're "best hopes if everything falls our way".

Yet nothing ever all falls anyone's way, not in a negotiation.

So when are the people of Scotland going to admit this to themselves, and say "iScotland won't be as fantastic as Salmond says"?

If the people of Scotland ever do state that truth, yes is fucked. Yes can only win (based on what polls say) by people choosing to be dumb.

[eFestivals]

Oh and where I live youth unemployment is 35.8% (2011 figures). The worst in the whole of Britain.

But I'm not demanding an independent England.

where you live also earns the most per-person, and that money is stolen from you by those nasty northerners, Welsh and N-Irish ... and in the last 2 years, those greedy Scots too (by the SG's own numbers, btw!).

As it's yours, all yours, you should demand that you have it all for yourself, and not support any elsewhere. And particularly not the Scots who can't read their own numbers.

[eFestivals]

fabulous prosperity? you have both been going on about unemployment rates & food kitchens. the UK has fabulous prosperity for the rich and the gap between rich & poor is rising year on year.

And you plan to vote for a campaign whose only financial promise is to increase the gap between rich and poor!!!!

You seem to keep forgetting that truth from the lips of Alex.

[LJS]

I'm not surprised you are struggling to accept the truth of his position. It is rather unpalatable isn't it.

Greed is a horrible thing.

"SCOTLAND is one of the wealthiest nations in the world, ranked 14th, and outstrips the UK on international performance, according to updated Scottish Government figures."

Yet his kids deserve MORE than this?? He is risking his kids prosperity for EVEN MORE wealth! Amazing.

I had another look & still can't find that greed you are accusing him off. But you are right greed is a horrible thing. So is misrepresenting what someone has said. It's even more horrible when your "mistake" is repeatedly pointed out to you and all you can do is repeat the same bollocks over & over again.

[eFestivals]

greed is a horrible thing.

the whole basis of the current Scottish independence movement revolves around the idea that the oil wealth is exclusively Scotland's and not the UK's, does it not?

[Comfy Bean]

You are aware that Scotland getting more than they already have, means somewhere else will be getting less.

You admit Scotland is prosperous and admit you want even more. That is horribly greedy. Why do Scots deserve more than others?

I note your emotional "I'm doing it for my kids!" Get out clause.

So fuck everyone else's kids then?

Scottish kids are more important than other nationalities to you, is that it?

Greed, the most shameful reason of all to vote yes. Fair play for admitting it though

I`ve already said that i don`t think Scotland " deserve" anything. Much as I am enjoying our 4 play, can I please repeat my request for fair play with the misquoting / representing what has been said. I accept that you honestly believe that the result will be NO. Deep down I think you may well be right. Is your view on this that anyone who`s opinion differs from yours is a greedy eejit who wants the rest of the world`s kids to starve while we greedily slay otters ? If so, then why not just post exactly that and defend your position with those who hold a different view through debate. Quoting someone else`s post, in this case mine, and ( loosely ) using it to introduce your own views does you a dis-service. You mention greed at every turn. I never have. In my opinion you are 100% correct to say that personal greed will play a part in this for some. This is a sad reality and someone else quoted some pretty damning evidence to back this up that shows that some people would vote for anything on the promise of more money for themselves. I am sure you will agree that Scotland is not unique in this respect. I can assure you 100% that my interest in this debate and the future of Scotland is in no way influenced by money for either me or mine and I have tried ( perhaps badly ) to put across some of the more long term reasons why I think it " Could " work but it is a free country and you believe what you will. I won`t comment on your greed allegations again.

So...onwards and upwards . When you say " taking " and the bit about everyone else`s kids getting less cause we want to take more. What exactly do you mean ? I`m thinking Scotland would " take " less ? Is that not the point ?

I don`t think we should be looking to take anything. We should be looking to create / invent. We actually have a pretty good record of doing this

Scotland is blessed with a great wealth of natural resources and talent. We should be looking to lead on new technologies in the renewable game and sharing it with the world like we already do in the computer gaming industry. There are some stats on the natural resources contained within our borders. I`m happy to dig them up if you are interested. We used do ok with coal a few years back and at one point this provided work to many in our community but that didn`t work out so well for us. Perhaps instead of having the nukes on our soil we could look at newer cleaner technology and create jobs etc in this area ( I mean with the coal - not in my house ). Advancements will continue to be made on the wind and wave front by future generations plus we at last seem to have got a grasp on the benefits of recycling. I`m not mentioning oil as I think that has been done already. Oh and greed is not good in my book. We are a compassionate lot us Jocks and with a little more ambition .......

Edited April 17, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

and there's been a poll published today showing that everyone would like to see a less laughable campaign from yes by a margin of 99.9999% to 0.0001%.

But yeah, it's only BT that are doing the bullshit thing, eh?

'Yes' loves to tell Scotland about its Nobel winning economist, but it forgets to tell Scotland that he called Greece wrongly - both economically and politically.

He said there'd be jam and more jam for Greece, and what have they got? What he's got is a bad rep, and so is working now in one of the few places he can get it.

And what's he said for Scotland? Jam, just like he said for Greece.

Perhaps he's right this time, who knows? But perhaps he's not too. He's certainly shown both his political and economic naivety for how things work in the real world.

An economist gets something wrong. Wow incredible. Thanks for that astonishing insight. All I have said is he may have a bit more relevant experience & knowledge than you & me. I quoted some other dudes too but for some reason you just ignore them & bang on & on at every opportunity about Avery.

& jam.

You just love a bit of the old jam don't you? Problem is the guys who are pro yes on here have made it Crystal clear they aren't in it for the Jam. Bit still it's jam bam thank you mam.

[LJS]

And you plan to vote for a campaign whose only financial promise is to increase the gap between rich and poor!!!!

You seem to keep forgetting that truth from the lips of Alex.

I'm not voting for a campaign. I am voting for independence. If there is a yes vote, I will then get to vote for a government. That government will decide on tax rates.

[LJS]

the whole basis of the current Scottish independence movement revolves around the idea that the oil wealth is exclusively Scotland's and not the UK's, does it not?

No

[Comfy Bean]

An economist gets something wrong. Wow incredible. Thanks for that astonishing insight. All I have said is he may have a bit more relevant experience & knowledge than you & me. I quoted some other dudes too but for some reason you just ignore them & bang on & on at every opportunity about Avery.

& jam.

You just love a bit of the old jam don't you? Problem is the guys who are pro yes on here have made it Crystal clear they aren't in it for the Jam. Bit still it's jam bam thank you mam.

That could have been the slogan right there*

* Joke. I`ll get my coat.

[Buff124]

This is exactly what I'm getting at. So far, 'yes' is not being properly scrutinised. Until no started to come back with stuff, it was sucked up by plenty as a statement of fact.

Problem seems to be a lack of critics ? Where's the pro-union equivalent(s) of Bella Caledonia, NewsnetScotland, and your personal Bath-based favourite ? Where are the pro-union bloggers who have assiduously cultivated an audience over a number of years, and now have an average of 100k unique visitors per month ?

The reason the lead-in to the referendum was so long was to allow a considerable amount of work to be done at the grassroots - one of your 'unkown unknowns' that I mentioned pages back - and the indy blogs give a hint of what's out there on the ground. The Yes campaign haven't been sitting on their butts for the past 2 years.

The Far Left in particular have been active in the vast housing estates of Glasgow and Edinburgh for many months.

[eFestivals]

An economist gets something wrong. Wow incredible. Thanks for that astonishing insight.

It's no incredible insight, it's merely holding a light up to him and seeing that yes are presenting far less of "must be believed" case than is being believed by yes-ers right now. I doubt it'll stay like that.

All I have said is he may have a bit more relevant experience & knowledge than you & me. I quoted some other dudes too but for some reason you just ignore them & bang on & on at every opportunity about Avery.

I'm not talking about Avery. I'm talking about one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse heralded economists of the white paper.

But Avery is another where the yes side do the half-truth thing too, and few have switched onto that yet either. Again, I think they will do before voting day.

Whether wising-up changes many minds or not I'm not predicting, because there's more to it than just these sorts of things ... but the various polls suggest that wising-up should see some support for yes fall away.

& jam.

Every chance to vote is a chance to vote for jam.

Just not in so many bucket fulls, normally.

You just love a bit of the old jam don't you? Problem is the guys who are pro yes on here have made it Crystal clear they aren't in it for the Jam. Bit still it's jam bam thank you mam.

That's fine - it's the way I'd like to see it. Any independent country will best succeed with unwavering support from its citizens, and if Scotland is to be independent that's what I'd most like it to have. It'll have that the most by not disappointing via the reality of independence.

But you're surely aware of the polling that's been done, that says that yes can only win if they promise lots of jam and the promises are believed.

[eFestivals]

No

Really?

Do you think they'd be this vote if oil hadn't been discovered around Scotland?

The sad fact is, McCrone was right.

[eFestivals]

I'm not voting for a campaign. I am voting for independence. If there is a yes vote, I will then get to vote for a government. That government will decide on tax rates.

And nothing of that changes the fact that the one promise of the official independence campaign - a claim of what will happen in Scotland - is a tax cut for the wealthiest. Just the wealthiest!

And from the current party of govt in Scotland, and the party who have pushed for independence.

Independence they want so that they can give the wealthiest some tax cuts.

Them's the facts.

[eFestivals]

Problem seems to be a lack of critics ?

Nope.

The problem is a lack of critical scruitiny.

There's plenty out there that people can use to better inform themselves, but too many prefer to repeat myths ad-infinitum.

Where's the pro-union equivalent(s) of Bella Caledonia, NewsnetScotland, and your personal Bath-based favourite ? Where are the pro-union bloggers who have assiduously cultivated an audience over a number of years, and now have an average of 100k unique visitors per month ?

do you need a salesman to convince you of the benefits and downsides of a pint of milk, or do you already know what a pint of milk is?

There might be some right keenos, but right now there's too few of them.

Extra enthusiasm doesn't get to mean extra votes. It just means an extra-loud voter.

The Far Left in particular have been active in the vast housing estates of Glasgow and Edinburgh for many months.

and do they tell their supporters to vote yes to give the wealthiest in Scotland a tax cut?