The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I think the SNP would have been criticised either way. The "tradition" of not voting on English matters is a long one, albeit one I disagree with. I'm no advocate for them but I think they were right to take time to think about this - as long as they commit to voting on all matters as opposed to having to be pressured into it.

 

well, that's just it - it's about playing politics, and nothing of a principled position. They'll be abandoning "not voting on English matters" but just for this one thing.

 

It's about provoking a reaction, it's not about saving foxes.

 

It's about trying to highlight a Scottish sense of grievance.

 

(much like a Greek nationalist govt calling others 'nazis' and 'terrorists' because Greece had chosen to bankrupt itself. )

 

Without a false sense of grievance the SNP have nothing. Not a jot.

[eFestivals]

Taking time to let the public know how things are going to turn out is all part of politics - they all do it - how long did it take to see the detail behind the £12bn of welfare cuts and similarly how long will it take us to find out Labour's stance on it!

killing foxes for fun or not killing foxes for fun is about a moral position. The SNP voting or not on it is a political position.

It's not about a policy that has to be worked out in detail.

As it's taken the SNP 3+ months to find their morality, or 2+ months to decide on a political position, nothing about either part is coming from any principle.

[pink_triangle]

The snp are playing politics and are showing signs of hypocrisy, but we would be naive to think the other parties dont do the same.

[eFestivals]

The snp are playing politics and are showing signs of hypocrisy, but we would be naive to think the other parties dont do the same.

Oh, I don't disagree.

The point is that snippers like to think of the SNP as the only principled party, when they are *exactly* like the rest of them.

They're quite happy to play the people of Scotland with bullshit. And even their constitution puts the people of Scotland's welfare secondary to independence.

You and me know what they are. The issue is that many of their supporters don't.

[Comfy Bean]

well, that's just it - it's about playing politics, and nothing of a principled position. They'll be abandoning "not voting on English matters" but just for this one thing.

 

 

 

Wrong.

[Comfy Bean]

 

 

................it's not about saving foxes.

 

 

 

Surely it has something to do with foxes 

 

 

Robbie Marsland, director of League Against Cruel Sports Scotland, said: "We applaud the decision of the SNP to oppose repeal of the Hunting Act through the back door.

"They have rightly taken a stand against animal cruelty and we look forward to working with them to strengthen the ban in Scotland to ensure no one is able to encourage a pack of hounds to chase and rip apart a wild animal."

Edited July 14, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Without a false sense of grievance the SNP have nothing. Not a jot.

 

Disagree.

 

They have an unexpected ( in size ) majority at Holyrood and would you bet on that changing next year ?

 

They have an unexpected number of MP`s ( 56 ).

 

They have a leader who is popular across the UK ( although not on here ) and this will only increase after today.

 

I honestly think it`s fair to say that things are going well for them across these islands. No sign of a dip in popularity that I can see.

[Comfy Bean]

the one "fact" I've claimed is that it's taken many months for the SNP to decide on its position.

 

 

Or.....It`s taken many months for the SNP to decide to announce it`s position 

 

Dave looked a bit of a tool today cancelling tomorrows vote at the last minute. Surely we can all agree this is a good thing........the vote and Dave looking like a tool 

Bloke on BBC radio on my drive home saying this might not rear it`s head again. Tories raging 

[Comfy Bean]

I think the SNP would have been criticised either way. The "tradition" of not voting on English matters is a long one, albeit one I disagree with. I'm no advocate for them but I think they were right to take time to think about this - as long as they commit to voting on all matters as opposed to having to be pressured into it.

 

KM, as well as helping out the fox, there is a lot of talk about this evel after todays announcement from the SNP. I see you disagree with it ( evel )and I remember you making that point before. Would Dave be certain to win a vote on that. The SNP seems to be almost daring him into it and have got a massive response with the timing of their announcement today. Some of the more traditional Tories might not want to back evel will they ?

I`m honestly not sure about this but I`m thinking that big unionist types will realise it`s not good for the long term future of their beloved union. 

Is EVEL a certainty ? or another possible shambles for the outgoing Dave ?

[LJS]

killing foxes for fun or not killing foxes for fun is about a moral position. The SNP voting or not on it is a political position.

It's not about a policy that has to be worked out in detail.

As it's taken the SNP 3+ months to find their morality, or 2+ months to decide on a political position, nothing about either part is coming from any principle.

 

so, Neil, what if you hold two opposing principles?

 

You are against hunting with dogs in principle & you have a long standing principle of not voting on English matters. You can't maintain both so what do you do? Maybe you wait until there is actually a vote to decide on? Unlike you, I don't have the gift to see inside the mind's of Little St Nic & her henchpersons - but it is perfectly possible that the decision was based on a mixture of principle & politics. (it would be naive to suggest that there is a political party anywhere who does not weigh up political advantage when deciding their tactics)

 

But for you, it is a proven fact that every act of the SNP is driven by the most base & evil of motives. 

 

For the record, I am genuinely torn on this issue. I believe the SNP's record of abstention on English matters is perfectly sensible & morally & politically justifiable. Equally I don't much care for hunting. I can see both sides of the argument. 

[Comfy Bean]

So.... do we think that Labour will join with the SNP and vote against the Tory cuts to tax credits ? Serious question  

 

 

 

 

 

SNP's Mhairi Black attacks housing benefit cuts in first Commons speech

After housing benefit for under-21s abolished in budget, new MP says she is now only 20-year-old whom chancellor is helping with housing

 

 

Mhairi Black, the youngest person to be elected to parliament since at least the 19th century, used a barnstorming first speech in the House of Commons to mount a withering attack on the chancellor for cutting housing benefit to young people and to call for Labour to join the Scottish National party in mounting an effective opposition to the Tories.

To laughter in the Commons, Black declared that she was the only 20-year-old in the country whom George Osborne was helping with her housing bill.

“My housing [in London] is subsidised by the state … but in this budget the chancellor abolished any housing benefit for anyone under the age of 21,” she said. “We are now in the ridiculous situation whereby, because I am an MP, not only am I the youngest, but I am also the only 20-year-old in the whole of the UK who the chancellor is prepared to help with housing.”

Black went on to make a direct plea to Labour colleagues not to vote for the government’s planned cuts to tax credits.

“Yes we will have political differences, yes in other parliaments we may be opposing parties, but within this chamber we are not,” Black said. “No matter how much I may wish it, the SNP is not the sole opposition to this government – but nor is the Labour party. It is together with all the parties on these benches that we must form an opposition, and in order to be effective we must do so by opposing not abstaining.”

SNP's Mhairi Black: People are angry at Labour and really wanted change

 

 

Read more

To applause from the SNP cohort, which was immediately rebuked by the deputy Speaker Eleanor Lang, Black said: “I reach out a genuine hand of friendship that I can only hope will be taken. Let us come together. Let us be that opposition. Ultimately people are needing a voice, people are needing help. Let’s give them it.”

Earlier in her speech, Black criticised the “deep lack of understanding aboutScotland within the Labour party”. Explaining that she came from a traditionally Labour socialist family, she said: “I have never been quiet in my assertion that it is the Labour party that left me, not the other way round.”

Speaking of the SNP’s landslide in Scotland in May’s general election, in which Labour was reduced to one MP, she said: “The SNP did not triumph on a wave of nationalism; in fact nationalism has nothing to do with what happened in Scotland. We triumphed on a wave of hope – hope that there is something better than the Thatcherite neoliberal policies that come from this chamber.”

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As one of the last of the 50 new SNP MPs to make their maiden speech, the representative for Paisley and Renfrewshire South teased her colleagues for making tenuous connections between their constituencies and Scotland’s national poet Robert Burns. Trumping them, Black announced that the Scottish freedom fighter William Wallace was born in Paisley.

The response to the speech was almost unanimously positive, with plaudits coming from across the political spectrum and Black’s name soon trending on Twitter in the UK.

Former Liberal Democrat MP Jo Swinson tweeted: “If you’re good enough, you’re old enough! Well done” while Labour’s newly elected Tulip Siddiq conceded: “I may not agree with everything Mhairi Black said in her maiden speech but credit where it’s due - it was well delivered, passionate & witty.”

Even the Daily Mail, not renowned for its praise of the SNP, described Black’s oratory as “one of the best maiden speeches of the 2015 intake” 

Edited July 14, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[pink_triangle]

The SNP Mps are paid by British tax payers to debate and vote in the British parliament and I expect them to contribute and vote on this and all other debates. If England want their own parliament then they can put this to a referendum and see what the English want.

SNP will be hypocrites like all political parties, but we have a government who need opposing. The government can only be defeated by labour and SNP working together, so there will be occasions when common ground needs to be found.

[bunique]

It was a cracking speech

[pink_triangle]

It was a cracking speech

Agreed. However its also true that there are many on the conservatives who can give cracking speaches as well. I hope she isn't all talk and can find a way to influence legislation from which the whole of britian can benefit.

[Comfy Bean]

Agreed. However its also true that there are many on the conservatives who can give cracking speaches as well. I hope she isn't all talk and can find a way to influence legislation from which the whole of britian can benefit.

 

Hopefully she started that today. Will Labour vote against the tax credit changes or will they abstain ?

I`m glad that was raised today in her speach. Hopefully Labour voters will put some pressure on the folk they voted for. Milliband rejected the hand of friendship before the election and ended up being the one out on his arse.

[pink_triangle]

Hopefully she started that today. Will Labour vote against the tax credit changes or will they abstain ?

I`m glad that was raised today in her speach. Hopefully Labour voters will put some pressure on the folk they voted for. Milliband rejected the hand of friendship before the election and ended up being the one out on his arse.

Although if he had accepted he would still be on his arse, with a few less labour colleagues.

[Comfy Bean]

Do you think labour will continue to support the tory cuts PT?

[pink_triangle]

Do you think labour will continue to support the tory cuts PT?

They will support some of the cuts and oppose some of the others. We don't even know who the labour leader will be at present. If you oppose every single cut you lose credibility.

[eFestivals]

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

Such fine principles from the UK's only principled party.

[eFestivals]

Surely it has something to do with foxes 

you'd think they'd be more concerned about protecting Scottish foxes then. After all, they're the party that claims to put Scotland first.

In this instance they';re very definitely putting Scotland second and themselves first.

[eFestivals]

They have a leader who is popular across the UK ( although not on here ) and this will only increase after today.

I suggest you take the time to study a bit of public opinion - you know, the facts - rather than invent a false glory in your head.

FFS.

[eFestivals]

Or.....It`s taken many months for the SNP to decide to announce it`s position 

except it doesn't have a position.

Apart from harsher treatment of English tories than Scottish tories, while Scottish foxes are less important than English foxes.

Now, what sort of reasonable sounding sound-bite can you make up from that?

 

Dave looked a bit of a tool today cancelling tomorrows vote at the last minute. Surely we can all agree this is a good thing........the vote and Dave looking like a tool 

Bloke on BBC radio on my drive home saying this might not rear it`s head again. Tories raging 

Dave doesn't need Nicola to look a tool, but Nicola needs Dave to look like one.

She hasn't even noticed that foxhunting isn't tory policy, but that's not stopping her claiming that it is.

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

so, Neil, what if you hold two opposing principles?

This isn't about me, it's about the SNP.

 

What if Nicola doesn't?

 

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

You are against hunting with dogs in principle & you have a long standing principle of not voting on English matters. You can't maintain both so what do you do?

If I'm Nicola Sturgeon? I make a speech....

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

 

Maybe you wait until there is actually a vote to decide on? Unlike you, I don't have the gift to see inside the mind's of Little St Nic & her henchpersons - but it is perfectly possible that the decision was based on a mixture of principle & politics. (it would be naive to suggest that there is a political party anywhere who does not weigh up political advantage when deciding their tactics)

Maybe she should have waited till there was a vote to decide on...?

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

 

But for you, it is a proven fact that every act of the SNP is driven by the most base & evil of motives.

Well, of course it's all a Neil invention, there's no proof in Nicola's own words, right?

Nicola Sturgeon, February 2015: "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as fox-hunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that"

 

For the record, I am genuinely torn on this issue. I believe the SNP's record of abstention on English matters is perfectly sensible & morally & politically justifiable. Equally I don't much care for hunting. I can see both sides of the argument.

as Nicola made perfectly clear with her own speech yesterday, it's fuck all to do with foxes.

For her, it's about showing how the tories are in disarray.

Unfortunately, she seems to have missed that this isn't tory policy.

Still, spouting bollocks has worked well for her so far, and you show that it's still working.

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

So.... do we think that Labour will join with the SNP

yes, it's all about follow the leader. PMSL.

[eFestivals]

I hope she isn't all talk and can find a way to influence legislation from which the whole of britian can benefit.

Hopefully she started that today.

Whoa!

Take a look at this....

http://www.snp.org/sites/default/files/assets/documents/constitutionofthescottishnationalparty.pdf

Now please stop with the bollocks.

(and while you're reading, do please make sure to note which order these things have ).

Edited July 15, 2015 by eFestivals