The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

and your own pretence about reality is no difference. At least I'm poking you with a purpose, you're merely in denial.

What purpose is that, oh wise one? Are you trying to save me from my own stupidity, protect my beautiful face from the constant punching I insist on inflicting on it. What an onerous responsibility you bear, oh great one... & with such humility & good grace.

whatever your specific reasons, you were happy to vote for something more right wing than you currently had. There was no social justice on offer, there was only extra money for the already-rich.

I could not have made it clearer why i was voting Yes & how I hoped things would pan out after a Yes vote. to portray this as "happy to vote for something more right wing than you currently had" is nothing more than a downright lie. You constantly portrayed the indyref as little more than a glorified election which was nonsense. Let's just imagine we had voted yes - the comparison now (or in a few months) would be between a Cameron government with an insurmountable majority & an SNP Government. no matter how right wing you portray the SNP as, they are not certainly not more right wrong than what we have now.

Feel free to accuse me of being naive. feel free to accuse me of being misguided. Please do not accuse me of being in favour of a more right wing government.

In your own narrative, that makes you a "red tory" at best. You would reject that label for yourself, but you still love to trot out that "red tory" idea like it's meaningful for anyone else.

Have I ever used the phrase "red tory" ... No , I dislike that sort of petty name calling. Although I might just make an exception for you & your recent support for the Tory smokescreen of a pretend living wage.

Your own rejection of what you freely chose to do gets to make my point - that things are far more nuanced that the "red tory" bollocks that you like to mindless say.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier answer.

You saw a better tomorrow via that more-capitalist route that Salmond offered. Fair enough.

This is quite simply a lie.

Similarly, plenty of people who at times might happily support Labour and the social justice they stand for decided not support them this time, because they - just like you did in the indyref - see a better tomorrow via what the tories offered than they do the alternatives.

You're starting to lose the plot completely now.

Perhaps it was because Labour would not be Labour but the country might be bankrupt, because of what the SNP were saying?

There's ample evidence that plenty didn't vote Labour because those people felt they couldn't trust them with the economy. True Now, do you think the SNP saying "we'll make them even more untrustworthy" helped correct that negative view? No idea because the SNP never said that -your new best friends, the Tories did.

Yep, tho you never succeed in backing it up with evidence. Show me the majority who voted to left of Labour.

Oh, you can't.

But I can show you the majority who voted to the right of Labour.

I have called you out on this facile point on countless occasions but you have never provided a reasonable answer. If I'm in Billericay, Bath or Birmingham & I want something to the left of Labour, & I'd like my vote to count, how should I have voted? The UK electorate has not been given a realistic left wing option since 1983 When the Labour party was a shambles & Thatcher was in full Boudicca mode. Just like you use Blair's victories to prove that Tory Lite Labour is the way forward when the Tories were in such disarray that Barry Fish could have led Labour to victory. You are well aware of the failing of FPTP when it suits your argument.

You can call them stupid if you like (I do) but it changes nothing of these real people's views which are worth no less than yours or mine.

People need persuaded. Focus groups persuade no one.

Edited July 20, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

I could not have made it clearer why i was voting Yes & how I hoped things would pan out after a Yes vote. to portray this as "happy to vote for something more right wing than you currently had" is nothing more than a downright lie. You constantly portrayed the indyref as little more than a glorified election which was nonsense. Let's just imagine we had voted yes - the comparison now (or in a few months) would be between a Cameron government with an insurmountable majority & an SNP Government. no matter how right wing you portray the SNP as, they are not certainly not more right wrong than what we have now.

yada yada yada ... you voted for a clearly right wing platform.

Yes, you say you did so in the hope of something better from the left afterwards ... which might, just perhaps, be what's happened in the UK elections, but to any true Scot like you England has to be completely different.

 

Feel free to accuse me of being naive. feel free to accuse me of being misguided. Please do not accuse me of being in favour of a more right wing government.

Have I ever used the phrase "red tory" ... No , I dislike that sort of petty name calling. Although I might just make an exception for you & your recent support for the Tory smokescreen of a pretend living wage.

 

I'm so very pleased that you practice what you preach.

 

I have called you out on this facile point on countless occasions but you have never provided a reasonable answer. If I'm in Billericay, Bath or Birmingham & I want something to the left of Labour, & I'd like my vote to count, how should I have voted? The UK electorate has not been given a realistic left wing option since 1983 When the Labour party was a shambles & Thatcher was in full Boudicca mode. Just like you use Blair's victories to prove that Tory Lite Labour is the way forward when the Tories were in such disarray that Barry Fish could have led Labour to victory. You are well aware of the failing of FPTP when it suits your argument.

 

Your vote only gets to count if enough vote the same as you. That's no different under all electoral systems (tho the proportion needed changes).

 

Given that FPTP makes it easier to get full power and not harder, is there a point where you'll wake up to why your vote mostly doesn't get to count?

 

And, i'll point out, that FPTP gives the opportunity for radical govt - you know, the big changes you advocate - while PR does not, it gives Blairite left at best.

 

But you like Blairite. You constantly voice your approval for Blairite policies that benefit the middle classes at the expense of the poorest. That's why you vote SNP.

 

 

People need persuaded. Focus groups persuade no one.

yeah, all people are wrong unless they agree with you.

And any persuasion that has formed their current views isn't valid persuasion, because it's not your view.

One day you will have to wake up to the fact that others are permitted their views no matter how much you might think them wrong or stupid for them. Their views are as valid as your own.

I think them wrong and stupid, but I don't deny them their views all the same. It's called 'democracy.

And you're heading into the land of dictatorship or your own stupidity, take your pick.

 

[LJS]

yada yada yada ... you voted for a clearly right wing platform.

 

I didn't vote for a platform, I voted for Independence as did many many others. 

Yes, you say you did so in the hope of something better from the left afterwards ... which might, just perhaps, be what's happened in the UK elections, but to any true Scot like you England has to be completely different.

What's with the true Scot stuff? I have never described myself in that way. I am Scottish & yes I identify myself as Scottish no more or less than I did in the forty years or so when I opposed Independence. I don't recognise the phrase "True Scot" or to be more accurate it holds no meaning for me.

 

Your vote only gets to count if enough vote the same as you. That's no different under all electoral systems (tho the proportion needed changes).

 

Given that FPTP makes it easier to get full power and not harder, is there a point where you'll wake up to why your vote mostly doesn't get to count?

 

And, i'll point out, that FPTP gives the opportunity for radical govt - you know, the big changes you advocate - while PR does not, it gives Blairite left at best.

 

None of this addresses my point that the electorate can only realistically choose from the menu put in front of them.  You saying the British electorate has shown it doesn't want more left wing policies because it doesn't vote for them is meaningless. It's like saying MacDonalds customer don't likke fillet steak because they don't order it. Its not on the  menu.

 

 

But you like Blairite. You constantly voice your approval for Blairite policies that benefit the middle classes at the expense of the poorest. That's why you vote SNP.

 

No I don't.

 

yeah, all people are wrong unless they agree with you.

 

Now this made me laugh. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before making that accusation.

And any persuasion that has formed their current views isn't valid persuasion, because it's not your view.

One day you will have to wake up to the fact that others are permitted their views no matter how much you might think them wrong or stupid for them. Their views are as valid as your own.

 

I completely agree with this (apart from the first 12 words of course. There is a clear difference between accepting people's right to hold whatever view they want  & agreeing with that view. 

I think them wrong and stupid, but I don't deny them their views all the same. It's called 'democracy.

 

Me neither. I just happen to think political parties should be in the business of changing people's views rather than reflecting them. As the Blessed Mhairi Black said

 

 "Tony Benn once said that in politics there are weathercocks and sign posts. Weathercocks will spin in whatever direction the wind of public opinion may blow them, no matter what principal they may have to compromise. And then there are signposts, signposts which stand true, and tall, and principled. And they point in the direction and they say this is the way to a better society and it is my job to convince you why. Tony Benn was right when he said the only people worth remembering in politics were signposts."

And you're heading into the land of dictatorship or your own stupidity, take your pick.

 

Dictatorship? Where do you get that from? Every argument I have made talks about working within the democratic process.  I love democracy - even our fucked up democracy. A democracy that abolished slavery, gave women the vote, established the NHS & legalised homosexuality. All achieved by politicians of conviction & without any help from focus groups.

 

[eFestivals]

I didn't vote for a platform, I voted for Independence as did many many others.

independence in a more-right-wing Scotland. You voted in support of a right wing policy (no 'left' was on offer) and for a more right-wing Scotland as a consequence.

I'm not trying to nail you as raving righter, I'm trying to point out that voting is nuanced, that what is on offer is considered as a whole and a decision made over it.

 

Clearly, only true Scots could do such a thing, and there's no nuanced voting anywhere else. England loves the tories, you say.

 

 

None of this addresses my point that the electorate can only realistically choose from the menu put in front of them.  You saying the British electorate has shown it doesn't want more left wing policies because it doesn't vote for them is meaningless. It's like saying MacDonalds customer don't likke fillet steak because they don't order it. Its not on the  menu.

 

But other 'left' options, more (supposedly) left than Labour, ARE on the menu.

 

And of course Labour itself is on the menu, at that modicum of left.

 

And people vote right instead.

 

That doesn't mean there are no left sympathies within that right-voting group, but it does mean those sympathies are likely to be limited in scope and they're unlikely to be the types who would ever describe themselves as left leaning. If they were left leaning they wouldn't almost constantly vote right.

 

You're so convince they'll always vote right you're prepared to launch a whole new country to get away from it.

 

But really you think it just needs Labour to go a bit left, a bit of passion and vision? That simple (much simpler than forming a new country)? PMSL.

 

 

No I don't.

 

blinded by dogma yet again.

 

Now this made me laugh. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before making that accusation.

 

I'm not the one rejecting the proven facts of how people are voting. I'm not pretending all the non-voters are on my side. I'm not pretending anyone is on my side.

 

I'm recognising the sides that other people are on, as proven by what they do.

 

You're claiming everyone is on your side really, without a jot of supporting evidence. The mythical left is just a myth.

 

 

I completely agree with this (apart from the first 12 words of course. There is a clear difference between accepting people's right to hold whatever view they want  & agreeing with that view.

 

It helps if you also accept they hold those views, rather than pretending black is white.

 

Then you start to be in the position to manipulate those views to your advantage, to get the support you need to do a little of what you'd like.

 

You do none of what you'd like without the support.

 

 

Me neither. I just happen to think political parties should be in the business of changing people's views rather than reflecting them. As the Blessed Mhairi Black said

 

You believe your own views spot on and righteous. Fair enough, we all do. We don't hold views we think are wrong, do we?

Which is the problem. How do you change the view of someone who is already convinced they're right?

You slagged off the UK govt's comments about Scotland's oil dependency as a lie pre-Sept 18th, and no facts put in your face would shift you even a smidgen, even in light of plenty of solid facts.

But the problem is other people and not you,. Yeah, you're of course right. Again. Always.

And that's why the left always loses.

 

Dictatorship? Where do you get that from? Every argument I have made talks about working within the democratic process.  I love democracy - even our fucked up democracy. A democracy that abolished slavery, gave women the vote, established the NHS & legalised homosexuality. All achieved by politicians of conviction & without any help from focus groups.

 

and yet you pretend those other people don't really hold the (outline) views they vote in support of.

 

A democracy that also justified slavery, denied women the vote, attacks the NHS and made homosexual acts illegal.

 

They weren't all really anti-slavery all along, were they? They weren't just waiting for an anti-slavery party to vote for, were they? They were pro-slavery.

 

To change their minds you first have to accept what their thinking currently is, and work from there.

 

The very thing you say is wrong, because they're all already lefies really, they just need a leftie party to vote for and then we'll all see how right you've been.

Edited July 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

independence in a more-right-wing Scotland. You voted in support of a right wing policy (no 'left' was on offer) and for a more right-wing Scotland as a consequence.

I'm not trying to nail you as raving righter, I'm trying to point out that voting is nuanced, that what is on offer is considered as a whole and a decision made over it.

 

Yeah Neil voting is nuanced.

 

Nuance is a "A subtle difference in or shade of meaning"

 

as in there is a subtle difference between voting in an election & a referendum. Too subtle for you obviously.

 

Clearly, only true Scots could do such a thing, and there's no nuanced voting anywhere else.

 

No idea what you are on about

 

England loves the tories, you say.

 

No I didn't. (although the facts say they are more popular down your way than up here.)

 

 

 

But other 'left' options, more (supposedly) left than Labour, ARE on the menu.

 

Really? tell me about them & their chances of success.

 

And of course Labour itself is on the menu, at that modicum of left.

 

With as much passion & conviction as a damp omlette.

 

And people vote right instead.

 

Sorry, instead of what again?

 

That doesn't mean there are no left sympathies within that right-voting group, but it does mean those sympathies are likely to be limited in scope and they're unlikely to be the types who would ever describe themselves as left leaning. If they were left leaning they wouldn't almost constantly vote right.

 

I'll let you into a secret, Neil, not everyone is as interested in politics as you & me & even Barry the Bloody Fish. i don't fancy my chances of changing your mind just as you have no chance of changing mine. That's because we care & we have read stuff & actually thought about things & come up with our own opinions ( shame yours is wrong:)) Most people barely give aq passing thought to politics - it's boring. their opinions are formed either by blindly following their parents or friends or blindly following what they read in the meejah which is overwhelmingly pro-Tory. The Labour Party certainly won't  change this by being a little less labour, a little more tory. At least not until the Tories fuck up & become unelectable. No, they will have to go out & make a noise , persuade people: but that woudl need them to have conviction...

 

You're so convince they'll always vote right you're prepared to launch a whole new country to get away from it.

 

There were many reasons for my yes vote - avoiding Tory governments was a fairly small part of it - but again invent my motives for me if it makes your case easier.

 

But really you think it just needs Labour to go a bit left, a bit of passion and vision? That simple (much simpler than forming a new country)? PMSL.

 

Please accept my apologies if I gave the impression this would be easy. It wont. (I also think it is extraordinarily unlikely to happen)

 

 

blinded by dogma yet again.

 

????

 

I'm not the one rejecting the proven facts of how people are voting.

 

 

Neither am I! but you are the one ignoring the lack of choice the electorate is facing, You ignore it again & again & again. 

 

I'm not pretending all the non-voters are on my side. I'm not pretending anyone is on my side.

 

So fucking what? I'm not pretending that your pretending ....

 

I'm recognising the sides that other people are on, as proven by what they do.

 

...given a very limited choice...

 

You're claiming everyone is on your side really, without a jot of supporting evidence.

 

No I'm not. This is just an out & out lie. 

 

The mythical left is just a myth.

 

I guess the mythical left must by definition be a myth

 

 

 

It helps if you also accept they hold those views, rather than pretending black is white.

 

Black is Black

 

 

 

You believe your own views spot on and righteous. Fair enough, we all do. We don't hold views we think are wrong, do we?

 

No, I'm sure we don't. I am consistent i my views though. I don't claim to be a socialist & then support Tory policies.

Which is the problem. How do you change the view of someone who is already convinced they're right?

 

As previously stated, the majority of the electorate don't care much for politics - they can clearly be persuaded to change their mind. cf labour/SNP /Scotland

You slagged off the UK govt's comments about Scotland's oil dependency as a lie pre-Sept 18th, and no facts put in your face would shift you even a smidgen, even in light of plenty of solid facts.

 

Hey you are right - because if you had paid the slightest bit of attention, you would have known that my yes vote had precisely fuck all to do with the price (or even the existence) of oil. Remember I was anti indy all through the seventies & eighties when oil undoubtedly would have made us rich. Interestingly, you ignore this point every single time I make it.

But the problem is other people and not you,. Yeah, you're of course right. Again. Always.

 

i think I am right (as do you) but I am not arrogant enough ( unlike you)to think I have a monopoly on the truth. I am happy to discuss politics & policies with anyone who is interested.  I don't usually insult people who do not share my view  ( I make an exception for you )

And that's why the left always loses.

 

would a sad face not have been more appropriate?  - or maybe the left losing makes you happy?

 

 

and yet you pretend those other people don't really hold the (outline) views they vote in support of.

 

Yet again - they can only realistically pick a dish from the menu put in front of them.

 

A democracy that also justified slavery, denied women the vote, attacks the NHS and made homosexual acts illegal.

 

They weren't all really anti-slavery all along, were they? They weren't just waiting for an anti-slavery party to vote for, were they? They were pro-slavery.

 

To change their minds you first have to accept what their thinking currently is, and work from there.

 

Thanks Neil for making my point more eloquently than I ever could. All these things were changed because public opinion was changed by people who cared. Focus groups would have resulted in folk campaigning for more comfortable manacles for slaves & counselling for homosexuals. Campaigning changed these things

 

The very thing you say is wrong, because they're all already lefies really, they just need a leftie party to vote for and then we'll all see how right you've been.

 

This bears no relation at all to anything I have said.

Edited July 21, 2015 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

Should I assume you don`t want to discuss Labours voting intentions on the cuts to Tax Credits ? I gather they are thinking of abstaining ? 

 

 

you're so very good at following the facts, aren't you comfy.

 

 

 

Thank you. I have my moments  What was so funny here ?

[eFestivals]

Yeah Neil voting is nuanced.

 

Nuance is a "A subtle difference in or shade of meaning"

Says the man who lined up to vote for a right wing platform.

You had your reasons, but you still voted for something very solidly more-neoliberal.

Really? tell me about them & their chances of success.

oh OK. People won't vote left because they won't win, instead they'll vote for the winning right.

But left is so very important to them, so important they'll vote right.

Do you realise how nutty you're sounding?

[eFestivals]

There were many reasons for my yes vote - avoiding Tory governments was a fairly small part of it - but again invent my motives for me if it makes your case easier.

It's no invention. It's a repeat back of what you've specifically said.

If it's wrong it's because you said something which wasn't true.

Which is quite possible, because you seem to have a different reason every time.

You started off saying you'd be voting yes for a richer life in more-prosperous than nasty old UK. You had to give that one up tho, I wonder why.

And then it was because it was the only way you'd get the govt you voted for, which of co9urse is factually untrue until you started voting for a party which refuses to be the UK govt.

And it's very definitely always had you escaping the tories, the tories who'd have controlled your currency and all of your financial life in currency-less Scotland.

Etc, etc, etc.

Yet Scotland would be poorer not richer; it can't self fund; the govt you say you'd vote for post-indie is a govt you get anyway; and you'd still have the tories on the top.

Seems like the only reason is really prejudice and mis-placed pride. But I'm sure you'll call me wrong, but not be able to give a reason outside of those. :_

[eFestivals]

What was so funny here ?

same as ever, your ignorance of the facts.

Get back to me when the vote on tax credits has happened, along with your admission of what a dullard you are.

[LJS]

Says the man who lined up to vote for a right wing platform.

You had your reasons, but you still voted for something very solidly more-neoliberal.

oh OK. People won't vote left because they won't win, instead they'll vote for the winning right.

But left is so very important to them, so important they'll vote right.

Do you realise how nutty you're sounding?

Pay attention, Neil. People are not crying out to vote left. They need persuaded.

[LJS]

It's no invention. It's a repeat back of what you've specifically said.

If it's wrong it's because you said something which wasn't true.

Which is quite possible, because you seem to have a different reason every time.

You started off saying you'd be voting yes for a richer life in more-prosperous than nasty old UK. You had to give that one up tho, I wonder why.

And then it was because it was the only way you'd get the govt you voted for, which of co9urse is factually untrue until you started voting for a party which refuses to be the UK govt.

And it's very definitely always had you escaping the tories, the tories who'd have controlled your currency and all of your financial life in currency-less Scotland.

Etc, etc, etc.

Yet Scotland would be poorer not richer; it can't self fund; the govt you say you'd vote for post-indie is a govt you get anyway; and you'd still have the tories on the top.

Seems like the only reason is really prejudice and mis-placed pride. But I'm sure you'll call me wrong, but not be able to give a reason outside of those. :_

This must be close to being your most inaccurate post ever. It is a tissue of lies from start to finish.

Well done.

[eFestivals]

Pay attention, Neil. People are not crying out to vote left. They need persuaded.

 

oh, so all you've been saying about how they just need a genuine left to vote for is bullshit?

 

Glad we've sorted that part out, at least.

[eFestivals]

This must be close to being your most inaccurate post ever. It is a tissue of lies from start to finish.

Well done.

 

 

So you've never said that you'd be richer in an indie Scotland?

 

So you've never said it's the only way to get the govt you vote for?

 

So you never said it's your only way to escape the tories?

 

And you;'ve never claimed Scottish exceptiona ism, either, have you, by saying you believe that Scotland would be better governed if governed buy Scots from Scotland?

[LJS]

So you've never said that you'd be richer in an indie Scotland?

So you've never said it's the only way to get the govt you vote for?

So you never said it's your only way to escape the tories?

And you;'ve never claimed Scottish exceptiona ism, either, have you, by saying you believe that Scotland would be better governed if governed buy Scots from Scotland?

That is correct. I have never said any of these things.

Thank you.

[gary1979666]

The left have been painted (rightly or wrongly) in the media as people who can't be trusted with the economy and shouldn't be left alone with the credit card (labour and the greens).

 

The way to persuade people that the left can be trusted is to come up with sensible, fair policies.  Spend less or don't cut are just reactions to what the govt are doing and aren't credible (in the public's eyes) policies for an economy as they rely on the magic money tree.  Until the left changes the record and put some ideas forward coherently, then the public won't trust them until the Tories cock up big time - which is a bit of a lazy approach.

 

As for the MaccyD analogy - if there's no filet steak on the menu, people pick the next best thing, a big mac - they don't u-turn and go for chicken nuggets.  If they wanted a left govt, they'd have voted labour over the tories.

[eFestivals]

Nicely summarised, gary.

[LJS]

There seems to be some genuine confusion here. So let me try & clear it up. I don't believe the Labour party will win simply by being more left Wing. They need to combine that with real enthusiasm & conviction which has been so conspicuous by its absence recently.

I'm not suggesting that will guarantee them victory...but I'm not sure anyone can guarantee that.

[eFestivals]

I don't believe the Labour party will win simply by being more left Wing.

 

I'm pleased to see you back down from your previous statements of there being a mythical left just desperate to vote for a more-left choice.

 

at least there's been some movement on one bit of bullshit.

[LJS]

I'm pleased to see you back down from your previous statements of there being a mythical left just desperate to vote for a more-left choice.

at least there's been some movement on one bit of bullshit.

I have never said this so I haven't backed down. I have said you cannot claim there is conclusive evidence of there being no appetite for left wing policies because the electorate has not been given the choice for thirty odd years. I know it's a subtle difference so it was maybe asking a lot for you to understand it.

[eFestivals]

I have never said this so I haven't backed down. I have said you cannot claim there is conclusive evidence of there being no appetite for left wing policies because the electorate has not been given the choice for thirty odd years. I know it's a subtle difference so it was maybe asking a lot for you to understand it.

 

My view is solidly supported with the facts of how people vote.

 

You have no facts on your side, just hope.

[eFestivals]

Nationalism is not a new phenomenon. When they talk about it being new politics: it’s the oldest politics in the world.

 

It’s the politics of the first caveman council when he pointed with his club across the forest and said ‘they’re the problem, over there, that’s the problem

 

Nailed.

Edited July 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

 

Nailed.

 

So you`ve advanced from the words of Thatcher a while back to quoting Blair. In the interest of balance the SNP have been quick to respond to the Blair speech you quoted above. I suppose we can all make our mind up on who we agree with   You have quite literally " nailed " your colours to the mast. Fair enough. 

 

 

SNP MP Mhairi Black said: "Tony Blair must still be smarting from Labour losing the Scottish Parliament election to the SNP in 2007 when he was Prime Minister and had dragged Labour so far to the right that it was barely recognisable.

"Tony Blair's legacy still haunts and damages Labour today, and led them into the sorry position of not even voting against the Tories' welfare cuts and budget bills this week leaving the SNP as the real and effective opposition to the Tory government.

"On any reading of his record Tony Blair was the one with the primitive policy, dragging the country into an illegal war in Iraq, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and causing massive instability to the region, the ramifications of which we continue to live with.

"His criticism of the SNP government suggests someone badly out of touch, presumably unaware that SNP poll ratings have reached 60% this month, but we take nothing for granted for the future.

"While Labour continue with their infighting and recriminations, the SNP will get on with the job of delivering for Scotland and working for progressive politics across the UK."

[eFestivals]

I said Blair got nationalism spot on, nothing else.

 

And I see the SNP didn't dispute a word of it.

 

You snippers bang on about how nice and cuddly and collaborative all politicans are at Holyrood, and that you compromise and accept real world opinions, and that everything about Westminster is bad.

 

And then at Westminster all you say is "tory bad, Labour worse" and mindlessly say 'no' to everything.

 

Why not say "its oor oil" instead? It would be fun, at least, and about as relevant to progressive politics.

 

Except you don't say that any more. Your lot didn't even ask that nasty Westminsterr govt if you could have it, when it was there for the asking at the Smith commission

Edited July 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

I said Blair got nationalism spot on, nothing else.

And I see the SNP didn't dispute a word of it.

You snippers bang on about how nice and cuddly and collaborative all politicans are at Holyrood, and that you compromise and accept real world opinions, and that everything about Westminster is bad.

And then at Westminster all you say is "tory bad, Labour worse" and mindlessly say 'no' to everything.

Why not say "its oor oil" instead? It would be fun, at least, and about as relevant to progressive politics.

Except you don't say that any more. Your lot didn't even ask that nasty Westminsterr govt if you could have it, when it was there for the asking at the Smith commission

Tony Blair delivers empty meaningless sound bite. No surprise there.

Neil's soils his pants. No surprise there.

[russycarps]

So you`ve advanced from the words of Thatcher a while back to quoting Blair. In the interest of balance the SNP have been quick to respond to the Blair speech you quoted above. I suppose we can all make our mind up on who we agree with You have quite literally " nailed " your colours to the mast. Fair enough.

SNP MP Mhairi Black said: "Tony Blair must still be smarting from Labour losing the Scottish Parliament election to the SNP in 2007 when he was Prime Minister and had dragged Labour so far to the right that it was barely recognisable.

"Tony Blair's legacy still haunts and damages Labour today, and led them into the sorry position of not even voting against the Tories' welfare cuts and budget bills this week leaving the SNP as the real and effective opposition to the Tory government.

"On any reading of his record Tony Blair was the one with the primitive policy, dragging the country into an illegal war in Iraq, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and causing massive instability to the region, the ramifications of which we continue to live with.

"His criticism of the SNP government suggests someone badly out of touch, presumably unaware that SNP poll ratings have reached 60% this month, but we take nothing for granted for the future.

"While Labour continue with their infighting and recriminations, the SNP will get on with the job of delivering for Scotland and working for progressive politics across the UK."

I'd rather be lectured to by someone who actually lived through the Blair years than from someone quoting soundbites from a text book who spent the years shitting in a nappy and playing kiss chase.

A childish tantrum from a child. The snp way.