The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I'd rather be lectured to by someone who actually lived through the Blair years than from someone quoting soundbites from a text book who spent the years shitting in a nappy and playing kiss chase.

A childish tantrum from a child. The snp way.

I Lived through the Blair (& Thatcher) years. Consider yourself lectured.

[eFestivals]

Tony Blair delivers empty meaningless sound bite. No surprise there.

 

and the constant empty soundbites from the SNP? PMSL.

 

Scotland will be rich on its oil.

Scotland can self-fund.

It's progressive to rob the poor to benefit the doing-OKs.

 

But yeah, Blair is wrong again, the SNP never say "they’re the problem, over there, that’s the problem". It's not their whole policy platform or anything.

[russycarps]

I Lived through the Blair (& Thatcher) years. Consider yourself lectured.

 

 

Sorry, being utterly deranged and detached from reality also disqualifies someone from lecturing me...

[LJS]

Sorry, being utterly deranged and detached from reality also disqualifies someone from lecturing me...

...love you too. X

[kaosmark2]

It's depressing that the Blair years were better than the crap we have now

[russycarps]

So those lovely people from shell and the other multinationals are in talks with iran to offer the technical expertise to develop the countries massive reserves. Iran used to be the 2nd biggest oil producer in OPEC. 

 

Meanwhile, saudi arabia continues to pump oil at record rates to crush it's competitors. Do you think (sunni) saudia arabia will do it's mortal enemy iran (shia) a favour and lower it's production to help them ease back into the market? No. They will continue to pump pump pump baby. The result of course will be oil prices down to the terrifying $40 mark over the coming years.

 

Things arent looking too pretty for the snp. Potentially a left leaning labour leader, catastrophically low oil prices, their beloved EU humiliated over the greek crisis and yet the lunatics in charge are trying to whip up support for another referendum! Utterly bonkers.

 

They got soundly beaten when every single thing was in their favour - down the the date of the election itself on the anniversary of one of their few small victories over the english - and yet they think they might have more success when their economic credibility has been utterly discredited.

 

And the raving nationalists STILL lap it up!

 

Madness!

[eFestivals]

Madness!

 

Yup.

 

No financial viability at the current standards of living, and the situation is getting worse.

No currency solution, because there's no alternative to the pound that people in Scotland will accept.

 

These are the things that cannot be mentioned (see also: "oor oil") because it blows all the bullshit apart.

 

But hey, from next May (I think it is) the SNP will be able to set their own rates of income tax and have all of the extra things they say they're happy to pay for themselves. I wonder if snippers will still want all of those nice things if they have to pay for them themselves? And I wonder how happy people in Scotland will be to see people in England being taxed less?

 

Or just perhaps nothing at all will happen, and they'll just mirror English income tax levels and complain about how they don't have enough powers to make a difference?

[eFestivals]

so ... neverendums.

 

The news in the last few days has been about what Salmond said when asked about another indyref being "inevitable", and there's been a lot of pretence that the 'English media' are making a fuss over an obvious conclusion of Salmond's.

 

Yet one of the SNP Mps put down a question in the HoC the other day, asking what contingency plans the Scottish Office is making for another indyref (the answer? 'none').

 

Quite why an SNP MP thinks the Scot Off should be pissing money up the wall over something not in the pipeline isn't explained, but it's not as tho anyone is imagining the ever-constant suggestions of another indyref from the SNP.

 

They are only suggestions - empty ones - though, cos it's not like the SNP could win a ref at the moment and they know it, else we'd be having one.

 

Meanwhile the message is out that Scotland is politically unstable until such time as this issue is resolved and put away (for a decade+, at least), impacting into Scotland's economy to its detriment and taking the SNP even further away from being able to give a sensible financial plan.

 

Chicken Dave has now tried to put the genie back in the bottle by saying "not in this Parliament" - .which is probably fair enough given the recent indyref and the fact that new powers are coming to Holyrood and need time to settle in.

 

Will it put the genie back in the bottle? Certainly not before the SNP's conference, where the demand for another ref by members is likely to loud, and likely to lead to the inclusion of at least a suggestion of another ref in their 2016 manifesto.

 

I guess the SNP aren't interested in knowing what history could teach them.

[Comfy Bean]

 

They got soundly beaten when every single thing was in their favour - down the the date of the election itself on the anniversary of one of their few small victories over the english - and yet they think they might have more success when their economic credibility has been utterly discredited.

 

 

 

Excellent stuff Russ. You keep telling yourself it`s all about the English  Atleast you`ve now realised it wasn`t all about the oil so that`s something.

 

While the majority of the UK vote for the Tories we will keep pushing for something different and fairer. We will get there eventually and then it will hopefully be a good thing for us all. 

 

Oh and what " election " you on about ?

[russycarps]

 

 

Oh and what " election " you on about ?

 

 

sorry for my unforgivable mistake.

 

I meant coronation of King Alex.

[Comfy Bean]

sorry for my unforgivable mistake.

 

I meant coronation of King Alex.

 

No worries  was unsure if you meant the GE. We`ve moved on now mate. Nicola has taken over from your man Alex but I know you guys are still a little obsessed with him. He has taken us to the brink but NS looks to be the right person to take it from here.

You do realise ( I`m almost certain you do ) that one day, an indy Scotland will be governed by Labour.

Don`t let Neil convince you that the SNP are all that matters up here. The majority of people I know would welcome a return of a strong left leaning Labour up here.  

As I`ve said many times before, after indy it`s odds on the SNP will form the first government but by the 2nd one you would think Labour would have got their act together and without having to chase middle england they can get back to what they were supposed to be in the first place 

Sadly it looks like the Tories have got things sewn up down your way for the foreseeable   

[eFestivals]

You do realise ( I`m almost certain you do ) that one day, an indy Scotland will be governed by Labour.

No, it never will be. You'll have to make do with your own newly invented Parochial Party.

I'd have thought such an independently minded lot would have got that one together already, but it looks like they're waiting for someone to do it all for them.

 

Don`t let Neil convince you that the SNP are all that matters up here. The majority of people I know would welcome a return of a strong left leaning Labour up here.

'welcome a return', perhaps.

'vote for it'? Much less likely.

You know it and I know it.

 

As I`ve said many times before, after indy it`s odds on the SNP will form the first government but by the 2nd one you would think Labour would have got their act together and without having to chase middle england they can get back to what they were supposed to be in the first place 

there's no odds about it.

They will not give you the choice about it, as was the case last time. It's a certainty.

Sadly it looks like the Tories have got things sewn up down your way for the foreseeable

If they have, it's called nationalism. It's what you say you like.

[tolywoly]

Giving such a definitive 'no' is a mistake on Cameron's part. The SNP machine is fulled by stirring up grievance about Westminster/England telling Scotland what it can or can't do. He'd have been better saying nothing, or making reference to the 'once in a lifetime' event line. Or the Edinburgh agreement in which Salmon and Sturgeon agreed to respect a 'decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland'. There's a broken vow for you.

 

It'd be a more difficult argument for the SNP this time. But it's only going to get harder in the medium term. They'll come under pressure to use those new powers, particularly the Smith Commission ones. Improved economic conditions could make people feel better about the UK. Right now they've got an unpopular Tory government, and a weakened Labour Party.

 

But their best bet it's still a UK 'no' vote in the EU ref.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the 2016 SNP manifesto formalised the middle road already suggested, promising another ref if was there was a material change to Scotland's relationship with the UK. What would constitute 'a material change'? It'd be kept vague enough to allow the SNP to push for one whenever it looked like they'd have a chance of winning. Same route they've taken with FFA - we admit it'd be a bad idea right now, but reserve the right to want it next time things swing our way.

 

John Curtis seems to think pro-independence vote would need to consistently poll over 60% before they'd have a shot. Sturgeon's probably got her eye on that.

Edited July 28, 2015 by tolywoly

[eFestivals]

Giving such a definitive 'no' is a mistake on Cameron's part. The SNP machine is fulled by stirring up grievance about Westminster/England telling Scotland what it can or can't do. He'd have been better saying nothing, or making reference to the 'once in a lifetime' event line. Or the Edinburgh agreement in which Salmon and Sturgeon agreed to respect a 'decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland'. There's a broken vow for you.

Cameron is quite happy to wind up the SNP.

He's shot their bolt, at least for the moment, by letting them have last year's indyref.

And the stronger the forever-parliamentary-ineffective SNP are, the less likely Labour are to start to challenge the tories.

The SNP and snippers love to think they're playing Chicken Dave, but he's playing them just as much. And like much of England he'd prefer the Scots to stay but he's not going to be giving them extras.

 

What are the SNP gonna do? Threaten to hold an indyref they'd lose anyway...? They're fucked for the moment despite all the noise, and the SNP know it even if the non-thinking detachment of their new army don't.

 

Go ahead punk. Make my day yourself poorer.

[LJS]

Giving such a definitive 'no' is a mistake on Cameron's part. The SNP machine is fulled by stirring up grievance about Westminster/England telling Scotland what it can or can't do. He'd have been better saying nothing, or making reference to the 'once in a lifetime' event line. Or the Edinburgh agreement in which Salmon and Sturgeon agreed to respect a 'decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland'. There's a broken vow for you.

It'd be a more difficult argument for the SNP this time. But it's only going to get harder in the medium term. They'll come under pressure to use those new powers, particularly the Smith Commission ones. Improved economic conditions could make people feel better about the UK. Right now they've got an unpopular Tory government, and a weakened Labour Party.

But their best bet it's still a UK 'no' vote in the EU ref.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 2016 SNP manifesto formalised the middle road already suggested, promising another ref if was there was a material change to Scotland's relationship with the UK. What would constitute 'a material change'? It'd be kept vague enough to allow the SNP to push for one whenever it looked like they'd have a chance of winning. Same route they've taken with FFA - we admit it'd be a bad idea right now, but reserve the right to want it next time things swing our way.

John Curtis seems to think pro-independence vote would need to consistently poll over 60% before they'd have a shot. Sturgeon's probably got her eye on that.

I don't actually disagree with much of this , even though it's from a different viewpoint from mine.

Where I do disagree is the "broken vow" bit. The SNP actively participated in the UK election & tried to play their part in UK politics. They specifically said that a vote for them was not a vote for a new Indyref.

As for the rest of it, I think the only thing that is certain in Scottish politics is its unpredictability

[eFestivals]

Where I do disagree is the "broken vow" bit. The SNP actively participated in the UK election & tried to play their part in UK politics. They specifically said that a vote for them was not a vote for a new Indyref.

 

They might have said it, but did they mean it?

 

If the SNP aren't interested in an indyref, why are the SNP formally asking the Scottish Office what plans they have for another indyref?

 

And why, off the back of that, are the SNP offended to be asked their own plans for another indyref by the Scottish Office?

 

Games, stupid childish games from stupid childish people.

 

What's wet-yourself-laughable is that the SNP couldn't win an indyref right now and they know it. Not now, and not for the next 5 years (at least).

 

Which is precisely why Chicken Dave has the confidence to say "they're not having one" - because he knows if they try it will be them who look stupid and not him.

 

It's no coincidence that Sturgeon has pretty much gone into hiding since the Greek thing. She was brave enough to try and write herself a cover story which luckily for her was not widely noticed because even that soon fell apart in light of events.

Edited July 29, 2015 by eFestivals

[viberunner]

yes, call me ridiculous

 

I'm not calling you ridiculous, though you might self-identify as that. I'm calling the self-declared position of yourself as left-leaning or Marxist to be utterly ridiculous given all the available evidence.

 

You're a Thatcherite. Have the guts to admit it.

[eFestivals]

I'm not calling you ridiculous, though you might self-identify as that. I'm calling the self-declared position of yourself as left-leaning or Marxist to be utterly ridiculous given all the available evidence.

 

You're a Thatcherite. Have the guts to admit it.

 

yep, all English are tories, that's why you have the blue tories and red tories, to mean blue english and red english.

 

Racism and lies and insults is all you have. Keep it up.

[viberunner]

by letting them have last year's indyref.

 

He didn't "let" them have anything. They won it during an election. 

 

And if they win another election on the same platform they can hold another.

[viberunner]

yep, all English are tories, 

 

Racism and lies and insults is all you have. 

 

No, Corbyn is not a Tory. Monbiot is not a Tory. Millions of English are not Tory. YOU. ARE.

 

Everything you have ever said on economic policy mirrors the Tory party. That's why.

 

Racism? Not racist against black people. Asian people. Islanders. Etc. So how I am I racist against?

 

People like you, David Cameron, and Nigel Farage. That's one horrible gene-pool right there.

[eFestivals]

He didn't "let" them have anything. They won it during an election. 

 

And if they win another election on the same platform they can hold another.

 

I refer you to UK's constitution.

 

The SG can hold any vote it likes in Scotland but any constitutional vote mean fuck all unless approved by the UK govt.

 

Yes, the SG can try the UDI thing if it really wants to, but that's no path to a better Scotland. Guaranteed to be outside of the EU, the UN, and NATO, with no meaningful currency, no meaningful banks and no meaningful economy. Oh, and no export markets for 73% of Scottish goods.

 

Yep, that will be better.

Edited July 29, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

He didn't "let" them have anything. They won it during an election. 

 

And if they win another election on the same platform they can hold another.

 

 

Fantastic. So scotland are going to copy zimbabwe are they?

 

You have a brain the size of a pea. No offence.

[eFestivals]

No, Corbyn is not a Tory. Monbiot is not a Tory. Millions of English are not Tory. YOU. ARE.

yes, i'm a tory because I laugh at your constant gross stupidity. I'm a red tory, which you read as tory tory tory English English hated english.

 

Everything you have ever said on economic policy mirrors the Tory party. That's why.

Me saying "cuts to 'nice' things are necessary" also mirrors Labour Party policy, LibDem policy and SNP policy (as detailed in each's manifestos). Are they all tories too?

"The SNP are tories" said by a snipper. I guess that's probably a first.

 

Racism? Not racist against black people. Asian people. Islanders. Etc. So how I am I racist against?

People like you, David Cameron, and Nigel Farage. That's one horrible gene-pool right there.

You really are some kind of special stupid, aren't you?

 

[eFestivals]

I see that the Scottish Govt thinks that money spent on a piss-up is a better use of public funds than helping the poorest.

 

I wonder what LJS's take on this will be...?

[viberunner]

The SG can hold any vote it likes in Scotland but any constitutional vote mean fuck all unless approved by the UK govt.

 

 

You think the UK could survive if the Scottish people elect the SNP in, the SNP hold a referendum, the vote is YES, but a London party with exactly one Scottish MP says no?

 

Get real.