The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

You keep banging on about this "give the wealthiest a tax cut" which i take it is the proposal to reduce the rate of corporation tax by up to 3%?

As corporation tax is, by definition, paid by companies & not individuals It is something of an oversimplification to describe it in the way you do.

yea, some wealthy people will benefit, but lots of wealthy people are on the payroll so will not benefit from this proposed cut.

You will probably argue that they will benefit indirectly & well they might. If the tax succeeds in its aim of attracting inward investment, it is likely that many "non-wealthy" people will benefit too.

Personally i remain to be convinced. My instinct is not to go for tax cuts to business, but as this cannot be enacted until after independence I expect to have the opportunity to vote for parties with a range of taxation policies. & believe it or not I may not vote for the one offering the biggest bribe (that's Jam to you)

[LJS]

Really?

Do you think they'd be this vote if oil hadn't been discovered around Scotland?

The sad fact is, McCrone was right.

Well, if oil hadn't been discovered around Scotland, we would live in a very different country. Would thatcher have lasted so long without the oil revenues to prop up the economy? Would labour have come to power without having to re-invent itself as Cuddly, not-at all- scary new labour?

So the honest answer is I have no idea - I can certainly see a strong case could be made for saying, no we wouldn't be having this vote. But, if I was interested, I am sure I could dream up a scenario where we could have had it even earlier.

The truth is we don't know & it doesn't matter cos the oil is there: it's a fact.

& as for McCrone:-

"The eighteen page report focused on the likely effects of North Sea oil revenue on the economic viability of an independent Scotland. Professor Gavin McCrone wrote the paper as advice to the UK Government. The report predicted that North sea oil revenue would give an independent Scotland a large tax surplus, on such a scale as to be "embarrassing", making the country "as rich as Switzerland."^[1] He also surmised that this surplus revenue would make the Scottish pound the hardest currency in Europe "with the exception of the Norwegian kronor"

So if the Scots were motivated by greed, we missed the boat pretty badly there didn't we? - 40years too late!!!

[LJS]

Anyway, I have worked out why I am so frustrated with this debate

Neil & Russy want to debate the pros & cons of the campaigns & base the debate around what they are saying & predominantly you take the side of the no campaign.

That is absolutely fine & I respect you for that. What you need for that is someone who pretty much supports everything the Yes campaign says. There are plenty of such people about but sadly none of them have stumbled by here.

Comfy & me on the other hand want to debate Independence itself & (without putting words into comfy's mouth) we haven't swallowed the yes line hook line & sinker. So when you guys turn your attacks to the Yes campaign's claims, we're frankly not that interested in defending them.

Now I know you will come back & say that I have defended their claims on the pound, on Europe and on Trident etc. Where I have it is only to the extent of saying - what Yes is proposing is possible & should not be ruled out, will be subject to negotiation etc etc. That is a slight oversimplification but on none of these issues have I been totally 100% behind the Yes campaign position.

So for as long as I can be bothered to carry on here, I will continue to argue the case for independence as I see it & as part of that I will do my best to have a bit of fun with the more laughable claims of BT. I won't spend much time criticising the Yes campaign - not because they are above criticism but because there is plenty of that from others on here.

Edited April 17, 2014 by LJS

[russycarps]

sigh cant you people post on here between 9am - 5pm??

[LJS]

sigh cant you people post on here between 9am - 5pm??

sorry, Russy

some of us work

However after independence we will have much more free time ... as the jobs all head south.

Oh, there's a thought will iScotland get Jeremy Kyle?

Imagine ... unemployed & no JK .... unthinkable.

[LJS]

you know there are some things I'll miss ... but this sort of stuff will not be amongst them...

David Cameron and Ed Miliband have been hurling insults at each other in a return of the "Punch and Judy" politics both men said they wanted to abolish.

In exchanges on the price of Royal Mail shares, Mr Miliband said the PM was "not so much the 'Wolf of Wall Street' as the 'dunce of Downing Street'".

The PM said he would not take lectures from the Labour leader and Ed Balls.

He branded the pair "the two Muppets" who had advised former PM Gordon Brown on the sale of the UK's gold.

Asked later if the word "Muppets" was the kind of language the prime minister should be using in Parliament, his spokesman said: "PMQs is a unique parliamentary occasion. It has been the way it has been for many years."

Comedy gold ... all of it

[eFestivals]

As corporation tax is, by definition, paid by companies & not individuals It is something of an oversimplification to describe it in the way you do.

Not really. The extra profit gets returned to the owners ... and the owners aren't the poor, are they?

yea, some wealthy people will benefit, but lots of wealthy people are on the payroll so will not benefit from this proposed cut.

that's true. They're merely the 'poor wealthy'.

It's the 'wealthy wealthy' that will benefit. You know, the types that might send their kids to Eton.

The UK already has one of the lowest corp tax rates in the world (just compare with the USA at around double!) but iScotland wants a lower one, and the rich running off with the money while the tax burden rises on the poorest has coincided with the corp tax rate coming down.

You say that's what you're voting against, but it's what you're voting for. Funny that, eh?

If the tax succeeds in its aim of attracting inward investment, it is likely that many "non-wealthy" people will benefit too.

And yet ... a race to the bottom (which is what a plan to 'win' by undercutting the competition is, iScotland's plan!) has never once in the history of economics benefited those at the bottom.

Personally i remain to be convinced. My instinct is not to go for tax cuts to business, but as this cannot be enacted until after independence I expect to have the opportunity to vote for parties with a range of taxation policies.

But you could have had tax rises to benefit the poor with extra services under the SNP in Holyrood now. But they wouldn't do that for the benefit of the poor.

But they are promising tax cuts for the richest at the very first opportunity.

That sounds just like the normal tory policies to me.

Who is going to be your leader post independence again? You'll all say you don't want the newly-crowned father of the nation, will you?

[eFestivals]

Neil & Russy want to debate the pros & cons of the campaigns & base the debate around what they are saying & predominantly you take the side of the no campaign.

you see, this is where the 'debate' gets so laughable. No criticism of the yes campaign is allowed or else that makes you a no-er.

Presumably, any that didn't vote yes in an independent Scotland will be hung as traitors?

What's certainly true is that if there's a no vote, many yes-ers will be accusing their countrymen of cowardice, of being cowed by 'project fear' (and all the while during the campaign those same people are saying that Westminster will take revenge on Scotland if Scotland votes no. You couldn't make it up ).

What you're missing is that I think Westminster is shit too. A huge number of people do. Just like you say of Scotland (but which is really only a self-serving statement for what you've pre-decided), I don't get the representation I vote for either. That's what happens when you're on the losing side in a democracy.

Moving the goalposts of democracy to achieve a political aim doesn't create better democracy. It's a smoke and mirrors trick, designed by some for their own power-grab - and it's the power-grabbing bastards that are the very worst. Anyone believing they're deserving of power is the very last person who should have it.

What you need for that is someone who pretty much supports everything the Yes campaign says.

Nope. If you wanna shut me up you merely have to laugh at the stupidity of the yes campaign yourself.

But you don't. You only laugh at the ridiculousness of one side, the side that co0uld be expected to be ridiculous under all circumstances anyway (and so nothing of it is a surprise).

And yes is beyond criticism.

Comfy & me on the other hand want to debate Independence itself

On that point specifically, what's to debate? All there is to say is that iScotland will live or die by its own doings.

Everything else is about the doings themselves. And when there's so few promises apart from comedy ones, and a big "fingers crossed" for everything else which only a fool would think would all come true, it's them that needs the scrutiny.

Edited April 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

sorry, Russy

some of us work

However after independence we will have much more free time ... as the jobs all head south.

Oh, there's a thought will iScotland get Jeremy Kyle?

Imagine ... unemployed & no JK .... unthinkable.

Imagine ... JK without Scottish people sitting in the chair .... unthinkable.

[eFestivals]

you know there are some things I'll miss ... but this sort of stuff will not be amongst them...

Comedy gold ... all of it

Does no one in Scotland laugh their arse off at Salmond and Stergeon then?

I can only presume your Parliament is full of the brain-dead.

[LJS]

Imagine ... JK without Scottish people sitting in the chair .... unthinkable.

Ha,ha. You have unwittingly unearthed our secret weapon.

Give us the pound (with jam on it) or we will withhold out numpties from the Jeremy Kyle show!

Problem solved...(inserts random smiley so everyone knows he's only kidding)

Edited April 18, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

Neil & Russy want to debate the pros & cons of the campaigns & base the debate around what they are saying & predominantly you take the side of the no campaign.

Comfy & me on the other hand want to debate Independence itself

I think their criticism of the yes campaign is all pretty accurate, but yeah, the debate isn't from opposing sides.

I'm far more interested in debating actual independence, and the fact it's a "which campaign do you support" argument is kind of why I haven't been that involved in it.

[LJS]

Neil,

Even if businesses distributes every penny of the corporation tax they save to their owners, this will not simply benefit the rich- lots of pension funds for example would benefit. So it is an oversimplification to simply describe it as giving money to the rich.

You say the UK has one of the lowest rates of corporation tax - according to what I could find it is pretty much at the European average... so not high, not outrageously low.

And you say "And yet ... a race to the bottom (which is what a plan to 'win' by undercutting the competition is, iScotland's plan!) has never once in the history of economics benefited those at the bottom. ;)"

I think Ireland did pretty well out of a strategy which included low corporation tax ... until the credit crunch bank malarkey blew that all out of the water.

Edited April 18, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

you see, this is where the 'debate' gets so laughable. No criticism of the yes campaign is allowed or else that makes you a no-er.

Presumably, any that didn't vote yes in an independent Scotland will be hung as traitors?

What's certainly true is that if there's a no vote, many yes-ers will be accusing their countrymen of cowardice, of being cowed by 'project fear' (and all the while during the campaign those same people are saying that Westminster will take revenge on Scotland if Scotland votes no. You couldn't make it up ).

I don't know how well you know Scotland. But I don't recognise the Scotland you describe here.

Yes, I am sure there will be some crazed voices on the sidelines proclaiming injustice & corruption & god knows what. But I really believe most Scots will just get on with it whichever way the vote goes. There is much publicity of the shriller edges of the debate but all of the discussion I have on the subject with people on either side are reasonable & there is generally respect for the opposing view.

Remember, there has been a campaign for Scottish Independence for many years. It has been almost entirely violence free. The worst we have done is deface a few pillar boxes & steal a big stone from London. I see no reason why violence would suddenly appear after a referendum whichever way it goes.

However, sadly you are not alone, Martin Kettle in the Guardian the other day speculating about a scenario where post Yes talks got bogged down said " Even acts of violence are not inconceivable in certain circumstances or places, as anyone with a smattering of knowledge of the Irish treaty of 1921 will grasp."

Anyone with a smattering of Knowledge of the whole Irish Independence movement would realise there is no comparison . Unless it is going to happen this weekend & no one has told me we have yet to have our Easter Rising!

[LJS]

Who is going to be your leader post independence again? You'll all say you don't want the newly-crowned father of the nation, will you?

I'll tell you 2 things (generous us Scots)

Firstly what I want & secondly what I think will happen.

I want a real choice between an SNP standing on its record of government, a Scottish Labour Party - freed from its shackles to the UK labour party which can offer a genuine left wing alternative & a Scottish Lib Dem party which can build on a long tradition of Liberalism in Scotland and hopefully recover from the damage done by the Clegg Cameron affair. Incidentally I'd like to think we would see the development of a different conservative party & a continued presence at Holyrood from the green Party. Given this choice, who would get my vote? no idea - probably between Labour & SNP Although under the electoral system which I assume will stay the same we get 2 votes so I might vote Labour & green or SNP & Libdem. I'll make my mind up when I hear what they have to say for themselves.

Do i think that's how it will work out? No, I think it is pretty unlikely. I would expect the SNP to be pretty jubilant if they have won the vote & I would be surprised if they did not form the first government. The Labour party will require its traditional period of in-fighting before it decides what a Scottish Labour Party should look like. The Libdems will, I expect take a while to recover from their UK association with the Tories. So we would probably get a Salmond led SNP government for for the first one or two terms. Our electoral system makes it harder to get an overall majority so there is a fair chance of some sort of coalition.

I have already indicated that I think the SNP have made a reasonable job of running what they have had the power to run so, for me, this is not a major problem.

But even if you detest Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon, it still seems to me a bizarre reason to make a decision that will affect Scotland for the next hundred years.

Just for the record, that does not mean there are no good & honourable reasons for voting no - it is simply my opinion that is is daft to decide your vote because you dislike someone who will be dead in 20 years or so.

[Comfy Bean]

I personally wouldn`t grudge Salmond his moment IF...Scotland votes yes. I would also admit that I may cringe a bit if we see him wearing the tartan trews with a grin all over that big smug coupon of his

Salmond has lead them to a few surprising results ( I mean in the margins of victory rather than the result itself ) and if a Yes vote is achieved then in my opinion the SNP as I have ever known them will be dead in that instant. Will be interesting to see how they evolve if they have achieved their main goal. As LJS says, going forward Scotland will then vote based on whatever the various parties put in front of us. Would imagine a " new " SNP would have to work harder than anyone else in the event of the independence stuff being done and dusted.

[LJS]

I personally wouldn`t grudge Salmond his moment IF...Scotland votes yes. I would also admit that I may cringe a bit if we see him wearing the tartan trews with a grin all over that big smug coupon of his

Salmond has lead them to a few surprising results ( I mean in the margins of victory rather than the result itself ) and if a Yes vote is achieved then in my opinion the SNP as I have ever known them will be dead in that instant. Will be interesting to see how they evolve if they have achieved their main goal. As LJS says, going forward Scotland will then vote based on whatever the various parties put in front of us. Would imagine a " new " SNP would have to work harder than anyone else in the event of the independence stuff being done and dusted.

yeah, the Tartan trews are not a good look

[Buff124]

Does no one in Scotland laugh their arse off at Salmond and Stergeon then?

Alex Salmond tends to make fun of himself , more than anything. This is from Children In Need a few years back , you might also want to google Alex Salmond+Tunnock's

[LJS]

Alex Salmond tends to make fun of himself , more than anything. This is from Children In Need a few years back , you might also want to google Alex Salmond+Tunnock's

loving it, & although I'm not the greatest fan of oor Eck, I do think if more of our politicians had the willingness & ability to laugh at themselves a bit more, politics would be the better for it. It is a quality Boris Johnston & Nigel Farage have. Unfortunately, they demonstrate that if its the only quality you have it just makes you a tosser.

For English viewers Alex's performance is based on a series of skits by one of Scotland's greatest comic talents, Ricky Fulton. Here is an example

This in turn was based on "late call" where for many years Scottish TV ended with a 5 minute slot from a religious dude - at the start it was usually a Church of Scotland Minister but as we got more & more PC & inclusive & stuff all sorts of other religions got a shot. the one thing most of them had in common was ... they were absolutely shite on TV & as the budget ran to one camera & a chair it was generally less than inspiring.

[russycarps]

Neil,

Even if businesses distributes every penny of the corporation tax they save to their owners, this will not simply benefit the rich- lots of pension funds for example would benefit. So it is an oversimplification to simply describe it as giving money to the rich.

You say the UK has one of the lowest rates of corporation tax - according to what I could find it is pretty much at the European average... so not high, not outrageously low.

And you say "And yet ... a race to the bottom (which is what a plan to 'win' by undercutting the competition is, iScotland's plan!) has never once in the history of economics benefited those at the bottom. ;)"

I think Ireland did pretty well out of a strategy which included low corporation tax ... until the credit crunch bank malarkey blew that all out of the water.

Do you actually know what a company is? A company is just a legal construct. Companies aren't independent physical entities that decide whether or not to distribute money to the owners. A company IS the owners.

Cutting corporation tax is 100% a tax cut for the rich. It shows utter ignorance to even attempt to argue otherwise.

If Scotland is so left leaning why is there no outcry about this? Shouldn't you be crying out for tax increases across the board, if you want to eradicate food banks etc? How is a tax cut for the rich going to solve this problem? Where is the money going to come from?

You are motivated by greed. You want independence because you want more. And it seems you are happy to accept grotesque policies like tax cuts for the rich just for a tiny possibility that you and your kids will benefit too

Edited April 18, 2014 by russycarps

[LJS]

Do you actually know what a company is? A company is just a legal construct. Companies aren't independent physical entities that decide whether or not to distribute money to the owners. A company IS the owners.

Cutting corporation tax is 100% a tax cut for the rich. It shows utter ignorance to even attempt to argue otherwise.

If Scotland is so left leaning why is there no outcry about this? Shouldn't you be crying out for tax increases across the board, if you want to eradicate food banks etc? How is a tax cut for the rich going to solve this problem? Where is the money going to come from?

You are motivated by greed. You want independence because you want more. And it seems you are happy to accept grotesque policies like tax cuts for the rich just for a tiny possibility that you and your kids will benefit too

I'll the ignore the factually inaccurate bollocks at the start of your post

Who are you to tell me what i am motivated by?

here's some things I have said ..

I've explained on numerous occasions I am not voting yes to get rich quick, nor to annoint Alex Salmond as the glorious lifetime president. I've also made it clear that I am not certain things will be better but I'm prepared to give it a go

Personally i remain to be convinced. My instinct is not to go for tax cuts to business, but as this cannot be enacted until after independence I expect to have the opportunity to vote for parties with a range of taxation policies. & believe it or not I may not vote for the one offering the biggest bribe

Yeah, I think the only thing we can be certain is that there is not a lot we can be certain of! In a way I am glad I'm not making my decision on economic grounds because I have read much on both sides that is quite convincing

I remain convinced that the best way for the distinct culture & values of Scotland to be expressed is through independence. I am not naive enough to think that everything will be a bed of roses & there will be compromises along the way but in the end we will come out of it stronger.

won't change my mind because I am not voting for jam, I'm not voting for Currency union. I'm not voting for eu membership. i'm not voting for oil. I'm voting for my children to live in a country whose governments better reflect the hopes, culture beliefs & aspirations of the Scottish people.

if anyone is making their decision based on the propaganda of either the yes campaign or the Better Together campaign, their decision is based on a mixture of truth , lies, distortion, exaggeration & guesswork.

I have never said in any way that I expect to be financially better off. I've not even said I hope to be financially better off. So... please do me a favour & stop accusing me of greed. If you look back over this debate, I hope you will agree I am trying top have a reasoned argument. it is really difficult to do this with someone who accuses you of things you haven't said.

Here's something I have said

I stand corrected,

That is one thing neither you nor neil have ever said.

I'll end with a song

Edited April 18, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Neil & Russy

Here's what I can't understand.

& trust me this is a genuine question? not some arsey debating point.

If Scotland gets more than it's fair share under the UK(I think that's what you say) why are you so desperate to keep us in the UK? Now, let's be clear here there is not some hidden agenda where I am accusing you of greed or addiction to jam. I am genuinely curious. We form less than 10% of the UK by population & I think you have said we take more from the UK than we put in ( if you haven't said this I will stand corrected)

the UK will surely not be irrevocably damaged by losing such a small proportion of its population & revenue. I would imagine rUK would carry on pretty much as before. I don't see the problem.

Tell me please, why are you so desperate to keep us.

Is it because you love us?

I will try to end with an appropriate song on every post now.

[kaosmark2]

Tell me please, why are you so desperate to keep us.

You reduce the proportion of the time the Tories - who lots of us want no less than you do - into government.

[LJS]

You reduce the proportion of the time the Tories - who lots of us want no less than you do - into government.

You would think so, wouldn't you? However, apparently only twice since the war would the absence of scottish mp's have changed a labour majority to a Tory one. The most recent occasion was 1974.

Here is where I read it...

http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/2013/05/will-scotland-leave-england-to-generations-of-tory-rule/

[russycarps]

Neil & Russy

Tell me please, why are you so desperate to keep us.

Ever read Aesop's fable, the four oxen and the lion?

Ever heard Pink Floyd's Hey You?