The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Ever read Aesop's fable, the four oxen and the lion?

Ever heard Pink Floyd's Hey You?

No, but I've seen 4 weddings & a funeral & I've heard hey Joe by Jimi Hendrix.

Ate they any good?

[eFestivals]

But I really believe most Scots will just get on with it whichever way the vote goes.

I'd like to think you're right, but from the "if we lose it'll be because..." comments I've already seen I don't share your confidence.

[eFestivals]

Even if businesses distributes every penny of the corporation tax they save to their owners, this will not simply benefit the rich- lots of pension funds for example would benefit. So it is an oversimplification to simply describe it as giving money to the rich.

and yet ... how many poor people do you know with private pensions? If they've got money-enough to put into a pension, they're by-definition not poor.

Try dodging the bullet in whichever manner you wish, but you cannot get away from the fact that it is a regressive policy and not a progressive one. That it is right wing and not left wing. That it is increasing the w3ealth gap and not decreasing it. That it is creating social division and not social cohesion.

You say the UK has one of the lowest rates of corporation tax - according to what I could find it is pretty much at the European average... so not high, not outrageously low.

ey[p, for Europe it'sa about average, it's low against the USA. And here's the important part...

It's historically very low for the UK. Corp tax has fallen, and at the same time the rich have managed to run away with all the money. Funny that, eh?

Some people might even try to suggest the two things are not connected, but you'll see them on Saturday Night Live or in the tory party, mainly.

I think Ireland did pretty well out of a strategy which included low corporation tax ... until the credit crunch bank malarkey blew that all out of the water.

Ireland did well, those at the bottom in Ireland did not. As ever, the rich ran away with the money and left the poorest to pick up the bill.

[eFestivals]

If Scotland gets more than it's fair share under the UK(I think that's what you say)

that's been the fact of it for the last year - by the SG's own published figures - and will be the same in the current year too. And each year until 2017, by the SG's own estimates.

That might be a constant from now and forever or it might not, it depends if the white paper's guesses at the amount of oil turn out to be true or not (most likely not, as they're a fair chunk over every respected industry estimate).

why are you so desperate to keep us in the UK?

I'm not desperate. It's no skin off my nose. If you want to vote yes, go ahead, make your own day.

But....

Sat on the outside of it all, I can see that the SNP's support is raised on *exactly* the same basis as UKIP's - that all of the problems are the fault of 'those over there' and that any successes are a glorious consequence of an invented nation, and with some added "I can't vote for the trad parties any more" thrown in.

I can see that from all practical angles (and with everything else being equal), independence is more expensive. For example, iScotland reckons to spend 5% of the UK's navy budget on its own navy - when it has 50% of the UK's sea territory to cover with that 5%. It ain't gonna happen, at least not without impacts onto other factors.

I can see the huge financial holes in the budget projections, where no one takes away from the white paper projections the tax revenue from the financial services that iScotland cannot keep under EU rules.

I can see that with one bad year from oil production - such as 2012, and - oh - 2013 (how's 2014 gonna go? Everyone's projections say 'same') - that either taxes will have to rise or public services cut (at a bigger rate than the tories have done), while the country also carries a bigger deficit than rUK.

I can see that Salmond's claim - a claim people are choosing to vote yes because of - that more services and lower taxes AND a sovereign wealth fund are just not possible on any sustained basis.

Those above are all pretty solid, whatever the arguments and opinions over other aspects.

And then, from my own ideological point of view, I do think we're better together. Scotland is better within the UK (just as England and Wales and NI are) and that the UK is better within the EU and that we're all better within the UN. Fragmentation of that on any basis is regressive (but that doesn't mean that I won't allow people to make their own daft choice if they want to).

Why? It's hardly the solidarity of the working classes, is it? Divide and conquer is how the rich keep themselves rich, and you'll be voting to be conquered all over again.

Edited April 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

[eFestivals]

and that's exactly why the whole thing is so ridiculous, and why it provides me with hours of entertainment.

No critical analysis is allowed of the yes side. Anything which suggests anything negative about what yes is saying "iScotland is doomed".

Yep, Scotland really does have the better education system it claims, eh?

Edited April 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

And following on from We're Doomed ...

Along in a minute will be someone to tell me that Scotland has a more sophisticated electorate than anywhere else..... Buff, are you there Buff...?

[kaosmark2]

You would think so, wouldn't you? However, apparently only twice since the war would the absence of scottish mp's have changed a labour majority to a Tory one. The most recent occasion was 1974.

Here is where I read it...

http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/2013/05/will-scotland-leave-england-to-generations-of-tory-rule/

Huh, that's surprising.

That aside though, I genuinely disagree with separatist ideologies worldwide. I believe the entire world is better if we cooperate more, wear borders down and unite over our similarities rather than fragment over our differences. Nationalist ideals suit the powerful who want to create an "us and them" mentality, the more everyone feels united rather than isolated, the better society will be. This isn't to say that distinct regions and societies shouldn't have separate policies: I actually believe in greater devolution from Westminster across the whole combined nation. A policy might be good for Cornwall but terrible for London, and Yorkshire. I think we need another tier of regions (not counties, that'd be too small) that all get greater degree of power, with a small amount going the other way towards the EU. Tiered levels of elections enable each area to have appropriate policies made for them, while still providing the safety net that only a larger government and policy base can provide - both financially and in terms of legal protection.

[LJS]

Ireland did well, those at the bottom in Ireland did not. As ever, the rich ran away with the money and left the poorest to pick up the bill.

Unemployment in Ireland fell from about 16% to 4% between 1986 & 2000. I'd imagine that helped a few people better off. I'm not saying that the only reason for that was low corporation tax but it seems likely it played a part.

Anyway, I have no more to add on corporation tax. All I was really saying is that to portray it as throwing money at the rich is a simplification. I stand by that.

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, I have never suggested it would help the poor & anyone who campaigns under the slogan "we'll help the poor by cutting corporation tax" is very very unlikely to get my vote.

But the main reason I'm leaving it, is its not an issue for now, it is an issue for 2016....maybe & I woudl expect there will be some alternative tax policies on offer. So if its OK with you I shall move on.

[LJS]

Huh, that's surprising.

That aside though, I genuinely disagree with separatist ideologies worldwide. I believe the entire world is better if we cooperate more, wear borders down and unite over our similarities rather than fragment over our differences. Nationalist ideals suit the powerful who want to create an "us and them" mentality, the more everyone feels united rather than isolated, the better society will be. This isn't to say that distinct regions and societies shouldn't have separate policies: I actually believe in greater devolution from Westminster across the whole combined nation. A policy might be good for Cornwall but terrible for London, and Yorkshire. I think we need another tier of regions (not counties, that'd be too small) that all get greater degree of power, with a small amount going the other way towards the EU. Tiered levels of elections enable each area to have appropriate policies made for them, while still providing the safety net that only a larger government and policy base can provide - both financially and in terms of legal protection.

to be honest, it surprised me too.

I take your point, about separatist ideologies. Personally, I don't like the word "Nationalist" & its not one I would apply to myself. However, what do you do if you believe you belong to a nation (Scotland, in this case) & you feel the views of that nation are not being & cannot realistically be represented in parliament? Remember, we are currently ruled by a coalition whose main party has 1 MP in Scotland.

Had Westminster moved earlier to grant significant additional powers to Holyrood they might have been able to avoid the current situation, but they didn't.

Politicians find it hard to give away power& the devolution Scotland has has only been delivered when the relevant governments felt it was advantageous to them.

As I have said before, I am a recent convert to independence - for years I believed the solidarity of the working class was more important than national identity. I suppose I still do... the problem is there is no one in mainstream UK politics representing the working class.

Here's a real blue sky, sunshine scenario for you. Scotland votes yes, elects some sort of democratic socialist government which makes a success of running Scotland in a sort of Scandinavian type way. Poverty is reduced & we seem to be moving towards a fairer more equal society.

People in England see this & think "hey that seems to be working, why can't we have that?" Labour party sensing electoral opportunity miraculously swings back to the left & sweeps to victory & the right wing stranglehold on the UK is broken.

How likely is this to happen? Well, I certainly won't be betting any of my lovely Scottish jam on it,

If nothing else, Neil will have some fun demolishing it!

& of course there is the potential for the UK to abandon the EU ship so it is quite plausible that iScotland would be more "integrated" in the world than a Scotland within the UK.

Edited April 19, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

and that's exactly why the whole thing is so ridiculous, and why it provides me with hours of entertainment.

No critical analysis is allowed of the yes side. Anything which suggests anything negative about what yes is saying "iScotland is doomed".

Yep, Scotland really does have the better education system it claims, eh?

no critical analysis is allowed of the Yes side? really. You've certainly been doing it.

The referendum campaign has seen a revival in the public meetings all over Scotland where the Yes & No campaigns are put under public scrutiny.

The You're doomed response was meant to demonstrate why BT is failing to convince people - they paint such a bleak picture, we simply just don't believe them.

[eFestivals]

Unemployment in Ireland fell from about 16% to 4% between 1986 & 2000.

and funnily enough, very similar happened in the neo-liberal UK over the same time-frame, including that persecuted Scotland.

There's not a lot to be learned there from low corp tax, other than the obvious that corps will gravitate towards their biggest profit, and happily leave 'the people' (wherever they might reside) with less.

You know, exactly like Salmond is proposing for that social democratic left-leaning iScotland.

Stealing another country's tax base is not enterprise, it's stealing another country's tax base. It's nothing for anyone with any left-leaning views to congratulate for, unless your 'socialism' is National Socialism.

Anyway, I have no more to add on corporation tax. All I was really saying is that to portray it as throwing money at the rich is a simplification. I stand by that.

then you'll have to try and tell me how the poorest benefit, with accompanying facts.

I hope you love an impossible task.

But the main reason I'm leaving it, is its not an issue for now, it is an issue for 2016....maybe & I woudl expect there will be some alternative tax policies on offer. So if its OK with you I shall move on.

While it's something that might happen in reality in 2016, it's something that many of your countrymen are using to set their voting intentions right now.

What is it's all a heap of shit, and causes your countrymen to make a shit decision? Shouldn't the people of Scotland find out, rather than saying it doesn't matter?

The whole future of your country bis resting on that "doesn't matter", and while it might not matter to you because factors like corp tax is nothing of your decision, that's definitely not the case for others who think it's of great importance.

If you are voting yes on the basis you say, you shouldn't be wanting your countrymen to mug themselves by bullshit, even if wising them up causes them to vote in a different way to how you'd like.

Edited April 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I take your point, about separatist ideologies. Personally, I don't like the word "Nationalist" & its not one I would apply to myself. However, what do you do if you believe you belong to a nation (Scotland, in this case) & you feel the views of that nation are not being & cannot realistically be represented in parliament?

what you do is start or support a Nationalist movement, with that word Nationalist you don't like and apply it yourself.

I'd say you cannot be a nationalist or support a nation against what might be your best interests unless you think the artificial construct of nation is more important than all other things.

Remember, we are currently ruled by a coalition whose main party has 1 MP in Scotland.

And my bedroom is currently ruled by a coalition who got no votes from my bedroom.

Scotland is getting better representation than I am. Independence for Neil, "FREEEEEDOM" (said in the obligatory aussie accent ).

Had Westminster moved earlier to grant significant additional powers to Holyrood they might have been able to avoid the current situation, but they didn't.

had Holyrod taken the powers granted to it, maybe you wouldn't have your main party spunking millions of Scotland's money - not on the poor, please notice - but on a campaign of otherwise-pointless self-aggrandisement.

Politicians find it hard to give away power& the devolution Scotland has has only been delivered when the relevant governments felt it was advantageous to them.

A politician playing politics? Whatever next?

Maybe we'll have a nationalist party that delayed holding the independence referendum that was their main party policy?

As I have said before, I am a recent convert to independence - for years I believed the solidarity of the working class was more important than national identity. I suppose I still do... the problem is there is no one in mainstream UK politics representing the working class.

And voting politicians into a Scottish Parliament that's not doing that either will achieve what exactly...?

Here's a real blue sky, sunshine scenario for you. Scotland votes yes, elects some sort of democratic socialist government which makes a success of running Scotland in a sort of Scandinavian type way. Poverty is reduced & we seem to be moving towards a fairer more equal society.

and then the rapture happens, the meek inherit the earth, and God's mission is complete.

You are voting for an independence campaign lead by lying politicians, politicians who lie no differently to those you find in Westminster (as the white paper gets to prove), and where they can only gain enough political support to win their campaign by playing on people's prejudices.

How likely is this to happen? Well, I certainly won't be betting any of my lovely Scottish jam on it,

If nothing else, Neil will have some fun demolishing it!

I'd question whether you'll have any jam to bet with.

& of course there is the potential for the UK to abandon the EU ship so it is quite plausible that iScotland would be more "integrated" in the world than a Scotland within the UK.

"plausable" only within the sort of idiot opinion that the SNP would like you to believe.

You need to do a bit of research for why people support UKIP - and what you'll find is REMARKABLY similar* to why people support the SNP &/or independence for Scotland.

(* similar in the reasons for support, not similar in the policies each party offers as a solution to what they say is the problem).

There's not a chance of UKIP having meaningful influence within the UK without Scotland having fallen for the same guff beforehand, because the SNP have a significant headstart.

Edited April 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

to be honest, it surprised me too.

I take your point, about separatist ideologies. Personally, I don't like the word "Nationalist" & its not one I would apply to myself. However, what do you do if you believe you belong to a nation (Scotland, in this case) & you feel the views of that nation are not being & cannot realistically be represented in parliament? Remember, we are currently ruled by a coalition whose main party has 1 MP in Scotland.

Had Westminster moved earlier to grant significant additional powers to Holyrood they might have been able to avoid the current situation, but they didn't.

Politicians find it hard to give away power& the devolution Scotland has has only been delivered when the relevant governments felt it was advantageous to them.

As I have said before, I am a recent convert to independence - for years I believed the solidarity of the working class was more important than national identity. I suppose I still do... the problem is there is no one in mainstream UK politics representing the working class.

Here's a real blue sky, sunshine scenario for you. Scotland votes yes, elects some sort of democratic socialist government which makes a success of running Scotland in a sort of Scandinavian type way. Poverty is reduced & we seem to be moving towards a fairer more equal society.

People in England see this & think "hey that seems to be working, why can't we have that?" Labour party sensing electoral opportunity miraculously swings back to the left & sweeps to victory & the right wing stranglehold on the UK is broken.

How likely is this to happen? Well, I certainly won't be betting any of my lovely Scottish jam on it,

If nothing else, Neil will have some fun demolishing it!

& of course there is the potential for the UK to abandon the EU ship so it is quite plausible that iScotland would be more "integrated" in the world than a Scotland within the UK.

What do you do if you live in an English city and believe the views of that city aren't represented in parliament? What if you live in Yorkshire or Cornwall? The solution to feeling that your area isn't being appropriately represented isn't to leave, it's to try and restructure the democratic system. I hold exactly the same view with regard to Europe (although I actually believe that the UK is fairly well represented).

Without wanting to return the debate to "Alex Salmond is a liar", I don't believe the SNP are a left-wing party that represent the working class, I believe they're a separatist movement masquerading as a left-wing party in an attempt to gain their goal and more personal power. I believe if you had an equivalent party of similar size in many areas of the UK they'd get equivalent support, not that the Scottish vote them into Holyrood because they want independence.

[LJS]

What do you do if you live in an English city and believe the views of that city aren't represented in parliament? What if you live in Yorkshire or Cornwall? The solution to feeling that your area isn't being appropriately represented isn't to leave, it's to try and restructure the democratic system. I hold exactly the same view with regard to Europe (although I actually believe that the UK is fairly well represented).

Without wanting to return the debate to "Alex Salmond is a liar", I don't believe the SNP are a left-wing party that represent the working class, I believe they're a separatist movement masquerading as a left-wing party in an attempt to gain their goal and more personal power. I believe if you had an equivalent party of similar size in many areas of the UK they'd get equivalent support, not that the Scottish vote them into Holyrood because they want independence.

The difference between Scotland & the areas you mention, is that Scotland is a Nation & as such has the right to self government if it wishes. There has been an independence movement for many years. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing comparable in any regions of England.

[kaosmark2]

The difference between Scotland & the areas you mention, is that Scotland is a Nation & as such has the right to self government if it wishes. There has been an independence movement for many years. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing comparable in any regions of England.

Cornwall has an independence movement. Small and noone takes it seriously, but then that was the case about the Scottish independence movement 10 years ago.

[LJS]

then you'll have to try and tell me how the poorest benefit, with accompanying facts.

I hope you love an impossible task.

While it's something that might happen in reality in 2016, it's something that many of your countrymen are using to set their voting intentions right now.

What is it's all a heap of shit, and causes your countrymen to make a shit decision? Shouldn't the people of Scotland find out, rather than saying it doesn't matter?

I just love how you missed out the bit where I made it clear I don't think a cut in Corp tax would help the poor. Guess that didn't suit your argument. A tiny bit pathetic.

[LJS]

what you do is start or support a Nationalist movement, with that word Nationalist you don't like and apply it yourself.

I'd say you cannot be a nationalist or support a nation against what might be your best interests unless you think the artificial construct of nation is more important than all other things.

And my bedroom is currently ruled by a coalition who got no votes from my bedroom.

Scotland is getting better representation than I am. Independence for Neil, "FREEEEEDOM" (said in the obligatory aussie accent ).

had Holyrod taken the powers granted to it, maybe you wouldn't have your main party spunking millions of Scotland's money - not on the poor, please notice - but on a campaign of otherwise-pointless self-aggrandisement.

A politician playing politics? Whatever next?

Maybe we'll have a nationalist party that delayed holding the independence referendum that was their main party policy?

And voting politicians into a Scottish Parliament that's not doing that either will achieve what exactly...?

and then the rapture happens, the meek inherit the earth, and God's mission is complete.

You are voting for an independence campaign lead by lying politicians, politicians who lie no differently to those you find in Westminster (as the white paper gets to prove), and where they can only gain enough political support to win their campaign by playing on people's prejudices.

I'd question whether you'll have any jam to bet with.

"plausable" only within the sort of idiot opinion that the SNP would like you to believe.

You need to do a bit of research for why people support UKIP - and what you'll find is REMARKABLY similar* to why people support the SNP &/or independence for Scotland.

(* similar in the reasons for support, not similar in the policies each party offers as a solution to what they say is the problem).

There's not a chance of UKIP having meaningful influence within the UK without Scotland having fallen for the same guff beforehand, because the SNP have a significant headstart.

hay, man, calm yourself ... you'll do yourself some damage there.

As there is nothing in all that stuff up there ^^^ that you haven't said before & that I haven't responded to already, I'll just pour myself a cold beer & put my feet up.

i'll end with a little tip - repeating the same thing again does not make it any more true or convincing.

[kaosmark2]

i'll end with a little tip - repeating the same thing again does not make it any more true or convincing.

Said that to Salmond lately?

[LJS]

Said that to Salmond lately?

no point... he's a politician & that's what politicians do

We're not politicians ( although sometimes I think Neil has transformed into Alistair Darling & I'm sure he thinks I am really Alex Salmond) so we don't have to do that.

We can also have a wee laugh & a giggle now & then ... honest. it's ok

[Comfy Bean]

I just love how you missed out the bit where I made it clear I don't think a cut in Corp tax would help the poor. Guess that didn't suit your argument. A tiny bit pathetic.

The scrapping of the bedroom tax will certainly help the poorest / most venerable in society. The Scottish Govt has been making money available to our local authorities for a while now and paying the difference in rent through discretionary housing payments. I mentioned before that I think our Parliament has proved itself to be more efficient in the time it takes to get things done.

When council tax benefit was scrapped they agreed the " fairest and simplest" scheme of council tax reduction for those who couldn`t afford to pay their council tax. So we have the same scheme across the 32 local authorities. Down South nothing could be agreed and you have umpteen different schemes which is a nightmare for those who need help and find themselves moving around the country.

On the Corporation Tax, I agree that this will be a decision for us all to think about in 2016 ( possibly ). It`s not the sole thing that the Indy vote is about.

[Comfy Bean]

no point... he's a politician & that's what politicians do

We're not politicians ( although sometimes I think Neil has transformed into Alistair Darling & I'm sure he thinks I am really Alex Salmond) so we don't have to do that.

We can also have a wee laugh & a giggle now & then ... honest. it's ok

I`ve been following this for a wee while now and that last bit is to both your credit. You mentioned having a nice cool beer earlier ( cheers ) and I would imagine you and Neil would get on brilliant over a pint and would have a great old debate. I sense you are pretty similar fellas.*

* I hope I haven`t piss*d you both off now ! Was certainly not my intention

[LJS]

I`ve been following this for a wee while now and that last bit is to both your credit. You mentioned having a nice cool beer earlier ( cheers ) and I would imagine you and Neil would get on brilliant over a pint and would have a great old debate. I sense you are pretty similar fellas.*

* I hope I haven`t piss*d you both off now ! Was certainly not my intention

Haha, I'm pretty hard to offend. I did comment a while back that this debate would be much better if held in a pub.

As far as me & Neil being similar...I take it you mean apart from me being right & him being wrong (can't be arsed inserting smiley to show he is joking, assumes readers smart enough to work that out)

[LJS]

The scrapping of the bedroom tax will certainly help the poorest / most venerable in society. The Scottish Govt has been making money available to our local authorities for a while now and paying the difference in rent through discretionary housing payments. I mentioned before that I think our Parliament has proved itself to be more efficient in the time it takes to get things done.

When council tax benefit was scrapped they agreed the " fairest and simplest" scheme of council tax reduction for those who couldn`t afford to pay their council tax. So we have the same scheme across the 32 local authorities. Down South nothing could be agreed and you have umpteen different schemes which is a nightmare for those who need help and find themselves moving around the country.

On the Corporation Tax, I agree that this will be a decision for us all to think about in 2016 ( possibly ). It`s not the sole thing that the Indy vote is about.

Some good points there. I agree that the SNP have done a pretty good job & have a better track record in addressing inequality than either of the last Westminster Governments. Neil seems to think that the SNP are to the right of New Labour (If he doesn't I'm sure he will correct me) The sad thing for me is that we can even have that debate. Disillusionment with the Labour party is a big part of why we have got to where we are today. The saving grace for Labour & the No campaign is that there is still a vast reservoir of unthinking loyalty to Labour which is likely to carry the No campaign over the line. However, there has been a steady trickle of high profile Labour figures "defecting" to the Yes camp. Whilst I think Nicola Sturgeon's plea to Labour supporters to vote yes to "reclaim their party" was, in one sense strange from a party which has fought hard & successfully to get a toehold in traditional labour territory: I can see the logic & attraction in it.

I have never been a "one party" man, slavishly voting for the same party no matter who they put up - I have voted for at least 5 parties in my lifetime - maybe more - never Tory though. However I would think more than half my votes have gone to the labour party & at heart I would always call myself a socialist. It seems to me the Labour Party has moved so far to the right that they can no longer command my support. The notion that in an independent Scotland Scottish Labour, freed from the need to appease English Daily Mail readers. might just rediscover its Socialist roots is not too far- fetched.

In my lifetime, the political balance has shifted massively to the right & I have hung on for years waiting for it to change. From my viewpoint, that change is very unlikely to happen in the UK. It might happen in Scotland. No guarantee. But maybe just maybe.

What if I thought that change was achievable in the UK? It's a hypothetical question but it would certainly increase the chances of me voting No.

This matters a gazillion times more to me than whether we are a few quid better or worse off.

I'll finish with a few words from Richard Thompson who I am massively looking forward to seeing at End of the Road this year

Now some of the people are poor in the purse

They don't have the cash at the ready

And some of the people are crippled and lame

They can never stand up true and steady

And some of the people are poor in the head

Like the simpleton fools that you see

But most of the people are poor in the heart

It's the worst kind of poor, it's the worst kind of poor you can be

[LJS]

On the subject of comedy ... can anyone make any sense of this?

"THE Yes campaign’s talk of ‘vision’ is little more than pious hopes and bogus guarantees, writes Brian Wilson

Vision is a word beloved of those with nothing much to say. Indeed, it merits an aphorism comparable to Ralph Waldo Emerson’s classic: “The louder he spoke of his honour, the faster we counted our spoons.”"

in case anyone wonders who he is

Brian David Henderson Wilson is a politician in the United Kingdom. He was Labour Party Member of Parliament from 1987 until 2005 and served as a Minister of State from 1997 to 2003

I genuinely have no idea what he is on about