The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

This cannot be true. Surely you are making this up?

Imagine being a raving nationalist and reading that....wow.......

For once Russy, you are right. Neil is making it up. Nicola said no such thing & Neil is just being a dick as usual.

[eFestivals]

For once Russy, you are right. Neil is making it up. Nicola said no such thing & Neil is just being a dick as usual.

 

I gave an exact Nicola quote, where she (paraphased) says that indie will win if only she can get that 55% to disengage their brains.

 

I guess you'll claim her (paraphased) saying "we have no workable financial plan for indy" is a lie too.

 

PMSL. When your own glorious leader points out your stupidity you still can't see it.

[LJS]

I gave an exact Nicola quote, where she (paraphased) says that indie will win if only she can get that 55% to disengage their brains.

I guess you'll claim her (paraphased) saying "we have no workable financial plan for indy" is a lie too.

PMSL. When your own glorious leader points out your stupidity you still can't see it.

Paraphrase means "twist words to suit argument"

[eFestivals]

Paraphrase means "twist words to suit argument"

 

Do you feel insulted by Sturgeon's words, or are you too dumb to realise the implication of what her words say?

[retromoz]

dudes!......the campaigns over! We WON/LOST (delete as applicable).

 

There are wars happening. Refugees around the world. More important things, yeah?

[russycarps]

dudes!......the campaigns over! We WON/LOST (delete as applicable).

 

There are wars happening. Refugees around the world. More important things, yeah?

 

 

A lot of us are capable of having opinions on and discussing multiple topics at the same time.

 

And besides, a lot of this thread is comedy gold.

[eFestivals]

dudes!......the campaigns over! We WON/LOST (delete as applicable).

hey, some of us know that, but some keep talking about impending victory and some politicians keep on putting the issue back on the front pages (I wonder who that is? ).

 

Still, this time it's the nats 100% taking the piss out of themselves. No one can blame the anti-nats for a jot of it.

 

There are wars happening. Refugees around the world. More important things, yeah?

Yup.

Unfortunately Scotland doesn't have a solution for those just like it doesn't have the solution for its own self-financing.

 

[retromoz]

A lot of us are capable of having opinions on and discussing multiple topics at the same time.

 

And besides, a lot of this thread is comedy gold.

 

ok course. Its just...I just found it so....depressing....looking at all this, is all. The 'fight' was over long ago. Why continue to rehash the same arguments over & over again, yer know?

 

Course, i ALSO have the option of never looking at this thread again.....

[eFestivals]

ok course. Its just...I just found it so....depressing....looking at all this, is all. The 'fight' was over long ago. Why continue to rehash the same arguments over & over again, yer know?

 

Course, i ALSO have the option of never looking at this thread again.....

 

The fight was won, but for the 45%-ers it's never over.

 

And despite losing the arguments - even having them hammered home by the crashed oil price - them losing the arguments have never been accepted. Hell, that there are some valid arguments isn't even accepted.

 

I follow the indie discussion in some of the nat's favourite places, and it's constant comedy gold. It makes the Kippers look sane.

 

Sturgeon herself is smart enough to state they lost the arguments, which she's just done in an 'a year later' interview. Amusingly she says pretty clearly they can still win as long as Scots stop using their brains. The nat-Scots have stopped using their brains, so luckily they can't grasp that Sturgeon has just insulted them all.

 

And a year on, despite all the noise, none of the easy and practical steps that could be taken forwards towards independence have happened by these independent people who are waiting for other people to do it for them. Bristol has its own currency, soon-to-be-indy-(lol)-Scotland doesn't.

 

I'm quite happy for Scotland to be indy if it wishes to be, but I'm far from happy to see Scotland's poor fucked over by people too up themselves to even start to consider the full effects of what they advocate. Endless tory govts would serve those poor better.

[Comfy Bean]

I'm quite happy for Scotland to be indy if it wishes to be, but I'm far from happy to see Scotland's poor fucked over by people too up themselves to even start to consider the full effects of what they advocate. Endless tory govts would serve those poor better.

 

 

...........and this, right here, is where we disagree and why " The dream will never die " 

 

According to the polls " endless Tory Govts " is a fair comment Neil. Do you think there may be a connection between this and the continuing momentum towards an Independent Scotland ?

 

I also think a Corbyn led Labour govt would serve " those poor better " but do you think that is what the people in the biggest country in our union will vote for ?......No, nether do I 

[Comfy Bean]

...................... Scottish economy could be expanded to cover the £10Bn shortfall in public finances.

 

 

Typo ?

[eFestivals]

...........and this, right here, is where we disagree and why " The dream will never die " 

 

According to the polls " endless Tory Govts " is a fair comment Neil. Do you think there may be a connection between this and the continuing momentum towards an Independent Scotland ?

 

I also think a Corbyn led Labour govt would serve " those poor better " but do you think that is what the people in the biggest country in our union will vote for ?......No, nether do I 

 

The missing money is the whole of Scottish education, and some more.

 

How are bigger cuts than the tories a good thing, comfy?

 

Did you not hear Nicola? She doesn't have a clue how to fix it.

[LJS]

Do you feel insulted by Sturgeon's words, or are you too dumb to realise the implication of what her words say?

Why would I be insulted? What she said bears no relation to your "paraphrase." in fact what you said can much better be described as a lie than a paraphrase.

Your pants would be on fire if you hadn't pysl so much.

[eFestivals]

Why would I be insulted? What she said bears no relation to your "paraphrase." in fact what you said can much better be described as a lie than a paraphrase.

Your pants would be on fire if you hadn't pysl so much.

 

 

OK, OK, she didn't say anything about some people's brains being too good to be fooled by the white paper.

[LJS]

OK, OK, she didn't say anything about some people's brains being too good to be fooled by the white paper.

Yeah, she didn't, you're right.

[eFestivals]

Yeah, she didn't, you're right.

 

yep, indy failed because the no voters were stupid, that's what she said, wasn't it?

 

Oh, no it wasn't. She admitted their brains were too good for her - but that your soft brain wasn't.

[LJS]

yep, indy failed because the no voters were stupid, that's what she said, wasn't it?

Oh, no it wasn't. She admitted their brains were too good for her - but that your soft brain wasn't.

More bare faced lies from Neil.

[Stash]

More bare faced lies from Neil.

 

How do you interpret her hearts over minds comment John?

[eFestivals]

How do you interpret her hearts over minds comment John?

The amusing thing is that there's no interpretation precisely because Sturgeon was spot on.

[LJS]

How do you interpret her hearts over minds comment John?

 

 

The amusing thing is that there's no interpretation precisely because Sturgeon was spot on.

 

Here's a suggestion. Why don't we have a look at what Little St Nic actually said which, for some reason Neil has avoided.

 

"I know many people who in their hearts wanted to vote Yes but they couldn't in their head just convince themselves that that was the right thing to do given some of what they perceived as the uncertainties.

"And I think when you couple that with the vow of more powers, that for many people perhaps appeared to be the safer and the better option.

"I think we had a majority for Yes in people's hearts but we just didn't get that majority with head and heart aligned."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13718000.Sturgeon__the_Yes_campaign_won_a_majority_in_hearts_of_Scottish_people/?ref=mr&lp=29

 

As this is behind a paywall, I am more than happy to post the entire article if anyone so wishes.

Now, I fully appreciate that you can spin this as -  "Sturgeon: we can win if our supporters are even more brain-dead than they've been so far." However that is precisely that - spin.  It certainly is not what she said. 

How do I interpret it? 

Whilst many people like the idea of an Independent Scotland, the Yes campaign just failed to convince enough of them than this was realistic & relatively risk free. This was helped by the relentless doom mongering from (virtually) the entire British  establishment and media.

 

And of course you have to remember that a lot of "heads" were convinced.

Elsewhere Nic said

“I guess that’s one of the things I’m proudest of. I don’t mean to underplay the disappointment of the result, but the Yes campaign did take support for independence from 30 per cent or thereabouts to 45 per cent. And given all that was thrown at the campaign, that’s no mean feat. I wish we’d managed to just get it a little bit further along the road.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/13716867.Independence_Referendum_One_Year_OnSturgeon_looks_determinedly_forward_to_the_day_Scotland_will_become_independent/

 

And polls confirm that the process of head turning is slowly but surely continuing. No poll in the past year has shown an increase in support for no. All but 2 or 3 have shown an increase for Yes.

[eFestivals]

Yep, mentioning Scotland did not have an economy to sustain current levels of prosperity was scaremongering and not 100% true. Lol

[LJS]

Yep, mentioning Scotland did not have an economy to sustain current levels of prosperity was scaremongering and not 100% true. Lol

 

Mentioning is a strange word to use for the onslaught the yes campaign faced.

 

Whatever there was last year there was very little "mentioning" on either side. 

 

And as you are well aware there were many other things "mentioned"

Edited September 14, 2015 by LJS

[Stash]

eFestivals, on 14 Sept 2015 - 8:24 PM, said:

The amusing thing is that there's no interpretation precisely because Sturgeon was spot on.

 

Here's a suggestion. Why don't we have a look at what Little St Nic actually said which, for some reason Neil has avoided.

 

Quote

"I know many people who in their hearts wanted to vote Yes but they couldn't in their head just convince themselves that that was the right thing to do given some of what they perceived as the uncertainties.

"And I think when you couple that with the vow of more powers, that for many people perhaps appeared to be the safer and the better option.

"I think we had a majority for Yes in people's hearts but we just didn't get that majority with head and heart aligned."

http://www.heraldsco...e/?ref=mr&lp=29

 

 

That is a little different to the quote i read this morning, and the same quote posted by Neil (reported in the Hreald here, and also in the Guardian here:

 

 

 

“We would have to find additional and more effective ways of getting over the uncertainty issues. There is no getting away from that. I’m not sure that’s as easy as changing our position on currency, or one particular approach. It’s more complicated, more nuanced. It’s partly about raising the confidence of Scotland. This is anecdotal, based on my own impressions, but I think we had a majority for Yes. If we’d asked people just to vote for what was in their hearts we’d have won a majority. Where we lost was in the head. That’s where we’ve got to do more and do better at convincing people.”

[LJS]

eFestivals, on 14 Sept 2015 - 8:24 PM, said:

That is a little different to the quote i read this morning, and the same quote posted by Neil (reported in the Hrealdhere, and also in the Guardian here:

 

Quote

 

 

“We would have to find additional and more effective ways of getting over the uncertainty issues. There is no getting away from that. I’m not sure that’s as easy as changing our position on currency, or one particular approach. It’s more complicated, more nuanced. It’s partly about raising the confidence of Scotland. This is anecdotal, based on my own impressions, but I think we had a majority for Yes. If we’d asked people just to vote for what was in their hearts we’d have won a majority. Where we lost was in the head. That’s where we’ve got to do more and do better at convincing people.”

 

And what exactly in this says " we can win if our supporters are even more brain-dead than they've been so far."???

 

Let me use my emphasis now "That’s where we’ve got to do more and do better at convincing people.”"

 

Again, if you happen to believe, as Neil does, that only selfish Nazi Thatcherite child abusing morons would vote yes, you can put that spin on it, But IT IS NOT WHAT SHE SAID.

 

I believe in Neil's case the L in his beloved PMSL stands for Lying. 

 

edit: even better... perjured myself lying         

Edited September 14, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Mentioning is a strange word to use for the onslaught the yes campaign faced.

Whatever there was last year there was very little "mentioning" on either side.

And as you are well aware there were many other things "mentioned"

Yep, and those were true too.

There were letters to the SG from the EU confirming Scotland would be out.

It was confirmed that the UK wouldnt breach its EU treaty commitments by entering into a cu with iScotland (and which would have excluded iScotland from EU membership too).

And lots of other scenarios were laid out in various ways, all demonstrating an awkward position for iScotland if those things came about (some more extreme than others).

The fact that you found these things too unacceptable to your own nonthinking doesn't make them wrong.

Then there were salmond's lies, his attempts to con you, which you sucked up. He'd have led you to disaster and you still won't accept it.

Do you understand why the SNP don't want FFA and don't want another ref? They know it cantcwork as promised.

Edited September 14, 2015 by eFestivals