The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Typo ?

No, out of date. That's the number that is growing all the while you delay from your certain victory.

[LJS]

Yep, and those were true too.

There were letters to the SG from the EU confirming Scotland would be out.

It was confirmed that the UK wouldnt breach its EU treaty commitments by entering into a cu with iScotland (and which would have excluded iScotland from EU membership too).

And lots of other scenarios were laid out in various ways, all demonstrating an awkward position for iScotland if those things came about (some more extreme than others).

The fact that you found these things too unacceptable to your own nonthinking does make them wrong.

Then there were salmond's lies, his attempts to con you, which you sucked up. He'd have led you to disaster and you still won't accept it.

Do you understand why the SNP don't want FFA and don't want another ref? They know it cantcwork as promised.

 

...Sighs... and there were no other opinions on these  things. You really need to deal with the fact ( you like facts) that it is possible for experts to hold different views. 

 

the EU was a perfect example. there were conflicting views from well qualified people on both sides of the argument. You, as ever, picked your experts & stuck with them. There was never a definitive unequivocal answer on this matter. I recognised that. You, as you always do, picked your favourite experts & labelled everyone else as morons.

[eFestivals]

...Sighs... and there were no other opinions on these things. You really need to deal with the fact ( you like facts) that it is possible for experts to hold different views.

the EU was a perfect example. there were conflicting views from well qualified people on both sides of the argument. You, as ever, picked your experts & stuck with them. There was never a definitive unequivocal answer on this matter. I recognised that. You, as you always do, picked your favourite experts & labelled everyone else as morons.

Yes there were lots of different opinions.

Alex said the oil price couldn't crash.

Alex said the banks wouldnt head south.

Alex pretending using the pound was the same as a cu.

Alex said you'd each be £1200 richer.

Alex even told the UK govt how it would award its military contracts.

[eFestivals]

...Sighs... and there were no other opinions on these things. You really need to deal with the fact ( you like facts) that it is possible for experts to hold different views.

the EU was a perfect example. there were conflicting views from well qualified people on both sides of the argument. You, as ever, picked your experts & stuck with them. There was never a definitive unequivocal answer on this matter. I recognised that. You, as you always do, picked your favourite experts & labelled everyone else as morons.

There was no conflicting view from the EU itself.

There were two exceedingly clear unequivocal letters to the SG from the EU.

The fact of treaties with sovereign nations backed up those statements in EU law.

There were no differing informed opinions from those referencing the treaties. There was only bullshit from yes.

[LJS]

There was no conflicting view from the EU itself.

There were two exceedingly clear unequivocal letters to the SG from the EU.

The fact of treaties with sovereign nations backed up those statements in EU law.

There were no differing informed opinions from those referencing the treaties. There was only bullshit from yes.

Ok, Neil. On the grounds that I have no energy to dig up the many informed opinions to the contrary, I'll let you carry on dreaming. I see there's a poll showing Scotland massively pro EU unlike England.

Thanx for keeping us safe in the EU.

Edited September 14, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Ok, Neil. On the grounds that I have no energy to dig up the many informed opinions to the contrary, I'll let you carry on dreaming. I see there's a poll showing Scotland massively pro EU unlike England.

Thanx for keeping us safe in the EU.

There are opinions to the contrary.

There is no basis for saying that treaty changes can be forced onto 29 sovereign countries without the individual agreement of each of those sovereign countries (and referendums that absolutely have to go with it). That could only happen if the EU itself were sovereign rather than the member states, and that would mean there could be no Scottish independence.

But hey, you just pretend that none of that is true, and that dilution of sovereignty means nothing to sovereign states while you're demanding sovereignty and saying there can be no compromise on sovereignty.

If you're too stupid to see the contradictions in your own words I can't help that. If you're too stupid to read the treaties I can't help that.

 

If you're too stupid to actually understand what sovereignty is, what are you voting for?

 

[LJS]

There are opinions to the contrary.

I'm glad you acknowledge that. Some of the people that hold these opinions have way more knowledge & experience of the the EU works, but, hey, you know best.

[Stash]

I'm glad you acknowledge that. Some of the people that hold these opinions have way more knowledge & experience of the the EU works, but, hey, you know best.

 

It really is pointless rehashing this with you as your blinkers are so firmly entrenched, but here goes anyway:

 

Extract from José Manuel BARROSO letter to Lords subcommittee

 

The EU is founded on the Treaties which apply only to the Member States who have agreed and ratified them. If part of the territory of a Member State would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the Treaties would no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory.

 

Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously, an agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails. This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.

 

So what have we learnt here?

1. Scotland would leave the EU and be forced to reapply. 

2. Future membership is not guaranteed and would rely on all existing member states agreeing to it and setting conditions to iScotland's membership. 

 

 

Extract from letter from Viviane Reding to Scottish Parliament Europe & external relations committee: 

 

The Commission's position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of occasions since 2004. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.

 

Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, an agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails. This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.

 

So what have we learnt here?

1. The European Commission is consistent with their message for over a decade

2. See 1 & 2 above

[eFestivals]

I'm glad you acknowledge that. Some of the people that hold these opinions have way more knowledge & experience of the the EU works, but, hey, you know best.

The best you had was ten years out of date, prior the Lisbon treaty.

And that treaty proves the EU structure as different to the snipper's claims. Scotland could not enter the EU without treaty revision, because to do so would be the EU becoming sovereign over the member states.

But hey, let's just pretend that sovereignty of countries is a meaningless thing during an independence campaign.

Edited September 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

And just because we're on the subject, here's a list of things where Scotland fails to meet EU entry criteria:-

1. no own currency.

2. no central bank.

3. no budget history to prove budgetary competence.

4. no deficit at less-than 3% of GDP

5. racist uni fees policy

6. the absence of a large number of required state institutions, with operating history.

7. the absence of a large number of required independent regulatory institutions, with operating history.

8. the failure to meet the required modern democratic standards as laid out in the Vienna Conventions.

(these are just the ones I can remember from the top of my head. There's many many more)

But hey, just because these things have denied all other countries with any of those issues entry doesn't mean that Scotland would be denied entry. Scotland is special, with exceptional politicians, and the EU is Scotand's poodle so 29 other sovereign states will give up their sovereignty to Scotland.

[Comfy Bean]

It really is pointless rehashing this with you as your blinkers are so firmly entrenched, but here goes anyway:

 

 

So what have we learnt here?

1. Scotland would leave the EU and be forced to reapply. 

2. Future membership is not guaranteed and would rely on all existing member states agreeing to it and setting conditions to iScotland's membership. 

 

 

So what have we learnt here?

1. The European Commission is consistent with their message for over a decade

2. See 1 & 2 above

 

As we stand, what do you think offers the biggest risk to the Country I live in being " forced " to leave the EU ?

[Comfy Bean]

" racist uni fees policy ". Do you mean the policy the SNP and Labour support ?

 

" racist "

 

[Stash]

As we stand, what do you think offers the biggest risk to the Country I live in being " forced " to leave the EU ?

 

For the country you live in, stupid people advocating nonsense policies that would result in the UK leaving the EU. 

 

For the region you live in, stupid people advocating nonsense policies that would result in Scotland leaving the UK & the EU.

[eFestivals]

As we stand, what do you think offers the biggest risk to the Country I live in being " forced " to leave the EU ?

It wouldn't be forced to leave the EU.

YOU will have decided to end the EU membership it has via the UK.

(that's the same whether the EU exit is via a Brexit or ScottishIndy)

What don't you understand about sovereignty, comfy? Everything is my bet.

Edited September 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

OK...as we stand, what do you think is the biggest risk to Scotland being forced, to use slash's word, to leave the eu?

I'm trying to be specific and current :-)

[eFestivals]

OK...as we stand, what do you think is the biggest risk to Scotland being forced, to use slash's word, to leave the eu?

I'm trying to be specific and current :-)

 

Scotland isn't in the EU, therefore it cannot be forced to leave.

[eFestivals]

" racist uni fees policy ". Do you mean the policy the SNP and Labour support ?

 

" racist "

 

 

as far as the EU rules are concerned it's very definitely 100% racist.

 

I was talking specifically in regard to those rules.

[eFestivals]

The lie of the "train sets"....
 
Current spending per person:
Scotland - £11,223
UK - £10,250
 
Capital spending per person:
Scotland - £1,267
UK - £950
 
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/1422/8

[eFestivals]

The lie about the EU exposed:-

 

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_European_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

[eFestivals]

The lie about growing support for indy...

 

Support for Indy has been stuck between 48% and 49% for over a year in the opinion polls.

 

The last 4 polls (all in Sept) average: 49%.

 

The last 10 average: 49%.

 

average of all 2015 polls: 48%.

 

average of polls since referendum: 49%.

 

average of last 10 polls before the referendum: 48%

 

Whoops!

Edited September 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

The lie about growing support for indy...

 

Support for Indy has been stuck between 48% and 49% for over a year in the opinion polls.

 

The last 4 polls (all in Sept) average: 49%.

 

The last 10 average: 49%.

 

average of all 2015 polls: 48%.

 

average of polls since referendum: 49%.

 

average of last 10 polls before the referendum: 48%

 

Whoops!

 

 

That`s good the " don`t knows " have all now made their mind up 

 

Everyone can see the direction of travel here over the past decade or so. It`s when not if 

 

I suspect you have seen the more detailed analysis of the voting intentions of the young, middle aged etc.

 

A Tory win at the next GE and I suspect Scotland will be ready for something different. You seem to think that England is not in the mood for something that`s not the Tories but we all know that things are different up here.

 

You know that just as well as I do. Instead of a link..... I give you 1 ( one ) seat.

[Comfy Bean]

The lie about growing support for indy...

 

 

 

 

 Define " growing ".

[eFestivals]

 Define " growing ".

 

you're the one who said it was, and have claimed it's grown since last year.

 

The polls say it hasn't, but for the fact-free-ers like you that doesn't mean anything. It's growing.

[eFestivals]

I see Sturgeon has said "give us your money and we'll go back in the box".

 

That sounds like the words of someone who knows Scotland can self-finance, eh?

 

But does this woman think the world is as stupid as her? It's a year since her last big lie about getting back in the box.

 

Put up or shut up.

 

Instead of this "we'll have another ref and win, but only after we've found the missing £10bn which we don't know where to start looking for, and when the people of Scotland say so but only if I say so too, and when I'm sure of winning but i'm sure of winning now, and it'll be once in a generation but every week, and undemocratic to stop a vote but democratic to refuse to reverse it".

 

It's a good job she's got such a strong upstanding message.

 

John Lennon: "Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do."

 

Not so easy for the little Scotland parochialitists, tho.

Edited September 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

I see Sturgeon has said "give us your money and we'll go back in the box".

That sounds like the words of someone who knows Scotland can self-finance, eh?

But does this woman think the world is as stupid as her? It's a year since her last big lie about getting back in the box.

Put up or shut up.

Instead of this "we'll have another ref and win, but only after we've found the missing £10bn which we don't know where to start looking for, and when the people of Scotland say so but only if I say so too, and when I'm sure of winning but i'm sure of winning now, and it'll be once in a generation but every week, and undemocratic to stop a vote but democratic to refuse to reverse it".

It's a good job she's got such a strong upstanding message.

John Lennon: "Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do."

Not so easy for the little Scotland parochialitists, tho.

You're funny.

Someday, you will accurately quote what someone really says.