The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

T in the Park boss points out LibDem/Labour hypocrisy, but also calls out the SNP - specifically Hyslop - for lying to the Scottish Parliament and people.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/titp-boss-denies-making-relocation-threat-1-3913935#axzz3oKfKikS1

 

(we won't mention the indy victory rally and the £1M Scottish tax payers paid for it ).

Edited October 12, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/the-snp-has-made-a-mess-of-scotland-and-nicola-sturgeon-is-struggling-to-deny-it/

 

 

Interesting article.... 

No doubt the likes of LJS will dismiss it...

 

 

I have been careful to quote the words directly from the link provided...........

 

He started by asking her why the poorest are twice as likely to go to university in England than in Scotland.The numbers are not directly comparable, she said – which is true

 

Carry on lads, fill your boots 

[eFestivals]

I have been careful to quote the words directly from the link provided...........

 

He started by asking her why the poorest are twice as likely to go to university in England than in Scotland.The numbers are not directly comparable, she said – which is true

 

Carry on lads, fill your boots 

 

 

and yet the poorest in Scotland have been disadvantaged compared to the poorest in England.

 

If no-fees makes a difference, then it also follows that lesser support for the poorest also makes a difference - and the obfuscation you're trying here is bollocks by your own criteria.

 

But let's just ignore the illogical basis of your own argument, and give the SNP a free pass instead.

[Comfy Bean]

T in the Park boss points out LibDem/Labour hypocrisy............

 

 

I read the full interview in the Herald yesterday. For some reason you linked to the Scotsman`s spin on the Heralds exclusive   

It`s behind a pay wall but here`s the bit where he calls you out as an elitist snob  

I`m quite sure that I suggested at the time you first raised this that I would be surprised if previous Scottish Govts hadn`t handed cash over to T. I also read on here this morning that Glastonbury is in receipt of my tax coin.

I`m also sure I`ve said before that I`d rather my tax went on more "needy" causes but that I would always be happy to support things like sport, arts,music etc .

 

Probably more about priorities and for me personally T in the park doesnt seem like a priority.

 

Ellis said DF Concerts spent “close to £3 million” to move the festival “plus all the money we’ve left behind in the ground in terms of facilities”.

He refused to discuss the details of the “commercially sensitive” information but revealed that a one-off payout to connect the water supply set the company back £650,000.

Ellis said: “Now, this Scottish Government funding of £150,000 didn’t go towards that because it can’t go towards infrastructure spend but it can be spent on land rental and consultancy costs, with regards to the move. I think it’s fair to say we had as many archaeologists and ornithologists working at T in the Park as we had artists. It cost us an absolute fortune.”

Ellis said he had no qualms about asking government ministers for cash because a precedent was set in 2007.

“We’ve had government funding in the past from the Labour administration to help set up ‘Healthy T’ (a catering area which offers alternatives to fast food),” he explained. “People questioned that funding at the time. I think it was about £20,000. But it helped provide a platform for the government, through Health Scotland, to talk to an audience and get messages across that will help them in later life and help influence general habits around eating.”

Ellis also defended T in the Park’s cultural significance and accused critics of the decision to hand over a government grant of elitism.

He said: “There’s always been a degree of cultural snobbery. It’s that thing if something is ‘worthy’ or ‘high art’ or ‘traditional’ it is perhaps, by definition, not popular and perhaps needs underwritten by the public purse. That’s an argument that I’m not saying is right or wrong. But the other side of the coin is why shouldn’t public money go towards supporting contemporary music? There’s a thought that it’s just pop music and there’s no cultural relevance. Well that’s bullshit.”

[Comfy Bean]

and yet the poorest in Scotland have been disadvantaged compared to the poorest in England.

 

If no-fees makes a difference, then it also follows that lesser support for the poorest also makes a difference - and the obfuscation you're trying here is bollocks by your own criteria.

 

But let's just ignore the illogical basis of your own argument, and give the SNP a free pass instead.

 

" My argument " which we have been over more than once - across many pages - is that I disagree with tuition fees and that I think that our young ( and old ) should be educated based on ability to learn. I have argued that our tax system should lead to any successful recipient of this " free " education paying back into the system over many, many decades at a higher rate.

 

This money ( through taxation ) can then be re-invested to educate the next generation. I am happy that some of my tax coin goes into education instead of charging the students tuition fees and setting them off in life with massive debts from a ( normally ) young age. The whole debt culture we live in is shit.

[eFestivals]

I read the full interview in the Herald yesterday. For some reason you linked to the Scotsman`s spin on the Heralds exclusive 

It`s behind a pay wall but here`s the bit where he calls you out as an elitist snob

I`m quite sure that I suggested at the time you first raised this that I would be surprised if previous Scottish Govts hadn`t handed cash over to T. I also read on here this morning that Glastonbury is in receipt of my tax coin.

I`m also sure I`ve said before that I`d rather my tax went on more "needy" causes but that I would always be happy to support things like sport, arts,music etc .

 

Probably more about priorities and for me personally T in the park doesnt seem like a priority.

 

Ellis said DF Concerts spent “close to £3 million” to move the festival “plus all the money we’ve left behind in the ground in terms of facilities”.

He refused to discuss the details of the “commercially sensitive” information but revealed that a one-off payout to connect the water supply set the company back £650,000.

Ellis said: “Now, this Scottish Government funding of £150,000 didn’t go towards that because it can’t go towards infrastructure spend but it can be spent on land rental and consultancy costs, with regards to the move. I think it’s fair to say we had as many archaeologists and ornithologists working at T in the Park as we had artists. It cost us an absolute fortune.”

Ellis said he had no qualms about asking government ministers for cash because a precedent was set in 2007.

“We’ve had government funding in the past from the Labour administration to help set up ‘Healthy T’ (a catering area which offers alternatives to fast food),” he explained. “People questioned that funding at the time. I think it was about £20,000. But it helped provide a platform for the government, through Health Scotland, to talk to an audience and get messages across that will help them in later life and help influence general habits around eating.”

Ellis also defended T in the Park’s cultural significance and accused critics of the decision to hand over a government grant of elitism.

He said: “There’s always been a degree of cultural snobbery. It’s that thing if something is ‘worthy’ or ‘high art’ or ‘traditional’ it is perhaps, by definition, not popular and perhaps needs underwritten by the public purse. That’s an argument that I’m not saying is right or wrong. But the other side of the coin is why shouldn’t public money go towards supporting contemporary music? There’s a thought that it’s just pop music and there’s no cultural relevance. Well that’s bullshit.”

 

 

if you were a smart man who actually read what I posted instead of only ever hearing 'SNP baaad' in your head, you'll have noticed that me mentioning T was never about T getting money, and instead about the method in which T got money.

 

You know, where Hyslop has just been called out as a liar by the recipient of that money.

 

But let's just ignore the non-standard procedures that have happened here, and pretend it's all about something else. That's what the smart people do.

[Comfy Bean]

Interesting times around Michelle Thomson.......

 

And it was only after May that she was appointed as Business spokesperson at Westminster for the SNP .... despite her 'business skills' being the buying of distressed-finances houses from the desperate (including cancer sufferers) rather than anything laudable.

 

 

 

 

 

1. are you impressed by the 'business skills' of Michelle Thomson (MT), in buying houses from desperate people dying of cancer to then resell the same day for tens of thousands of pounds more?

 

 

 

 

 I didn`t know that the deals only involved people dying of cancer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 And just for clarity, you say she was "buying houses from desperate people dying of cancer ." How many houses did she buy from terminal cancer sufferers? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It might be the case that it was just one with cancer and that cancer wasn't terminal.

 

 

 

Not your finest attempt at SNP bad in my opinion Neil 

[eFestivals]

" My argument " which we have been over more than once - across many pages - is that I disagree with tuition fees and that I think that our young ( and old ) should be educated based on ability to learn. I have argued that our tax system should lead to any successful recipient of this " free " education paying back into the system over many, many decades at a higher rate.

 

This money ( through taxation ) can then be re-invested to educate the next generation. I am happy that some of my tax coin goes into education instead of charging the students tuition fees and setting them off in life with massive debts from a ( normally ) young age. The whole debt culture we live in is shit.

 

what is the point of free uni is it closes off Uni to those who will get the biggest benefit from it?

 

What is the point of free uni if it shuts down meritocracy rather than expands it?

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

The *overall* benefit of Uni is what is important, not some idiot dogma that shuts down opportunities.

 

Do you want to improve the lot of the poorest, or do you only want privileges for4 the doing OKs?

 

Your words prove the latter  and not the former.

 

It's the very opposite of anything from the left, but let's just ignore that in favour of idiot dogma.

[eFestivals]

Not your finest attempt at SNP bad in my opinion Neil 

 

 

so MT is really SNP good?

 

You said it, not me.

 

 

Meanwhile, what about the SNP/BfS lies? Are lying politicians to be always forgiven for their lies now? Oh, only if the liars your favourite liars.

 

Mind you, if the lies meant anything you'd have to call yourself stupid, so I know it won't ever happen.

 

So instead you'll just have to put up with everyone knowing that you are.

Edited October 12, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

if you were a smart man who actually read what I posted instead of only ever hearing 'SNP baaad' in your head, you'll have noticed that me mentioning T was never about T getting money, and instead about the method in which T got money.

 

You know, where Hyslop has just been called out as a liar by the recipient of that money.

 

But let's just ignore the non-standard procedures that have happened here, and pretend it's all about something else. That's what the smart people do.

 

I have posted many times on my feelings around Govt`s giving cash to music / cultural events.

 

You have also posted many many times about SNP / T in the Park cronyism. Ellis now seems to be saying that they got money before the SNP were in power and that they would have got it this time as well no matter who was involved in setting up meetings. It`s logical that this would be the case - due to the fact that they got it before when she wasn`t involved. Just my opinion though so carry on.....

[Comfy Bean]

so MT is really SNP good?

 

You said it, not me.

 

 

 

 

 

As you know, I have described her behaviour as " disgusting " and suggested she will be out on her arse. You appear to be making up what I have said and more worryingly inventing poor health onto some of the poor folks who lost money and their homes.

 

Me, you, LJS and NS are all agreed on this. There is nothing to " celebrate " here. Atleast it`s giving you a laugh though.

[Comfy Bean]

what is the point of free uni is it closes off Uni to those who will get the biggest benefit from it?

 

What is the point of free uni if it shuts down meritocracy rather than expands it?

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

The *overall* benefit of Uni is what is important, not some idiot dogma that shuts down opportunities.

 

Do you want to improve the lot of the poorest, or do you only want privileges for4 the doing OKs?

 

Your words prove the latter  and not the former.

 

It's the very opposite of anything from the left, but let's just ignore that in favour of idiot dogma.

 

As I said earlier, I have laid out my own view in favour of free education many many times on here.

 

I accept you disagree with my view. Lets agree to disagree 

 

I have not benefited from it personally and I am happy that my tax contributes to the ongoing education of our younger ( and older ) folks. Hopefully many of them will be successful after their studies and pay " us " back through a fair tax system.

[eFestivals]

I have posted many times on my feelings around Govt`s giving cash to music / cultural events.

 

You have also posted many many times about SNP / T in the Park cronyism. Ellis now seems to be saying that they got money before the SNP were in power and that they would have got it this time as well no matter who was involved in setting up meetings. It`s logical that this would be the case - due to the fact that they got it before when she wasn`t involved. Just my opinion though so carry on.....

 

 

oh look, you seem to have given Hyslop a free pass for being a liar.

 

A snipper giving the SNP a free pass for being proven as liars? That's never happened before.

[eFestivals]

As I said earlier, I have laid out my own view in favour of free education many many times on here.

 

I accept you disagree with my view. Lets agree to disagree 

 

I have not benefited from it personally and I am happy that my tax contributes to the ongoing education of our younger ( and older ) folks. Hopefully many of them will be successful after their studies and pay " us " back through a fair tax system.

 

I'm happy to disagree with your view. The problem is that you cannot see that YOU disagree with your view (either that, or you're being as tory as the worst tory, take your pick).

 

Is Uni meant to be for everyone, or only for those who can support themselves thru Uni?

 

According to you and the SNP it's most appropriate for those who can support themselves thru Uni.

[Stash]

I read the interesting piece from Geoff Ellis yesterday and a couple of things stood out in the article. 

 

Previous Lib/Lab Coallition Funding

 

 

“We’ve had government funding in the past from the Labour administration to help set up ‘Healthy T’ (a catering area which offers alternatives to fast food),” he explained. “People questioned that funding at the time. I think it was about £20,000. But it helped provide a platform for the government, through Health Scotland, to talk to an audience and get messages across that will help them in later life and help influence general habits around eating.”

 

Health Scotland using £20k of it's advertising budget on advertising healthy eating to young people doesn't seem like a bad deal. I know nothing about how the funding came about, but I'd be surprised if Ellis used a former Labour party aid to arrange meetings with the health minister of the day to arrange it. 

 

2016 & 2017 Event Viability

 

Ellis insisted T in the Park has a long term future at Strathallan and moved to quell any fears that the festival could be scaled back after Fiona Hyslop told MSPs “there was a risk to the viability of a multiday, multistage festival being held in rural Perthshire” before suggesting organisers could “move the festival itself away from Scotland”.

 

Ellis said: “I told the minister what was open to us. We could have had a single stage event on multiple nights which we would have had to risk far less money on but the returns would have been broadly similar. But we don’t want to do that.”

 

Hyslop have repeatedly stated that she was told that without support TITP could change to a single stage event or leave Scotland altogether. Ellis denies that he would ever threaten a government minister, so it seems her rationale for the funding was a little disingenuous. 

[LJS]

can I just point out that the SNP have been in power for eight years - longer than the tories - yet they're still blaming Labour for everything that goes wrong?

You complain about the tories doing this. You give the SNP a free pass.

I never mentioned the Tories. I also didn't give the SNP a free pass.

Otherwise, spot on.

[eFestivals]

 I also didn't give the SNP a free pass.

 

comedy gold.

[krisskross]

I'll just leave this here for Neil;

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/what-scottish-professors-have-to-fear-from-nicola-sturgeons-power-grab/ 

 

[gary1979666]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3273724/Sturgeon-rules-snap-independence-vote-told-day-job-Scottish-unemployment-rises.html

 

 

[eFestivals]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3273724/Sturgeon-rules-snap-independence-vote-told-day-job-Scottish-unemployment-rises.html

 

 

nothing we don't know already. She's shit scared of having an indyref now because she knows she can't make the economic case stand up since the oil money has disappeared.

Meanwhile, just about everything I read in any place has Scots still claiming that Scotland subsidies the UK and the UK doesn't subsidise Scotland, and Nats never ever correct them ... but it's not about the money, yeah?

Quite why these people who believe themselves to be on the cutting edge of politics haven't ever heard of GERS &/or disbelieve the most important factor towards indy from the leader of indy I've no idea.

 

[eFestivals]

I'll just leave this here for Neil;

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/what-scottish-professors-have-to-fear-from-nicola-sturgeons-power-grab/ 

 

the party of devolved power and independence love centralised power and dependence. Yeah, I never knew.

If St Nicola had more than shit for brains and lies for words, she'd have to accept an indyref vote on the same basis she demands the EU vote is held on - total acceptance by each area for it to be won.

But she has shit for brains and lies for words.. Who knew?

 

 

 

[russycarps]

st nicola is pinning all her hopes on britain leaving the EU. When that doesnt happen it will be amusing to see what their next grand plan is. 

I'm sure ljs will be along soon to tell us once he's stopped w*nking over the conference footage. 

[eFestivals]

st nicola is pinning all her hopes on britain leaving the EU. When that doesnt happen it will be amusing to see what their next grand plan is. 

I'm sure ljs will be along soon to tell us once he's stopped w*nking over the conference footage. 

yep - or outrage at tory cuts, tho that's unlikely to work. Only 9% of Scots are keen to pay higher taxes, and it's only 20% amongst SNP voters.

It seems Scotland wants social justice, but only if someone else is paying for it.

But indy isn't about the money.

TBH, i'm not sure that even leaving the EU would have Scotland win an indy vote, cos there's plenty of peeps who support indy who also want out of the EU.

 

 

[russycarps]

yep - or outrage at tory cuts, tho that's unlikely to work. Only 9% of Scots are keen to pay higher taxes, and it's only 20% amongst SNP voters.

It seems Scotland wants social justice, but only if someone else is paying for it.

But indy isn't about the money.

TBH, i'm not sure that even leaving the EU would have Scotland win an indy vote, cos there's plenty of peeps who support indy who also want out of the EU.

 

 

 

Yep, it's hard to imagine a set of circumstances where indy will seem like the most attractive proposition. If the perfect set of circumstance they had in September 2014 didnt do the trick, I cant see what else could.

And the best bit is, st nicola and the snp know it.  

Best thing they could do it run the country well for 5 or 10 years, then point to their achievements as proof that scotland doesnt need the rest of the uk. Unfortunately most of the snp are blinded by their hatred of the british so need indy NOW! The other problem is the snp are not competent when it comes to running a country and things will be a shambles in 5-10 years. The more time passes, the more the facade unravels.

How long will it be before people remember they dont actually care about scottish independence, and never have?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by russycarps
none of your business

[eFestivals]

Best thing they could do it run the country well for 5 or 10 years, then point to their achievements as proof that scotland doesnt need the rest of the uk.

thing is, that doesn't address anything of the missing £10Bn.

It's easy to point at better achievements when those achievements are made with extra dosh from England.

It'll be impossible to maintain those achievements if Scotland has to pay for them. Even if Scotland decided to find the money via taxes to maintain those particular things, society would take a hit in other areas because of the diversion of that money.

Are Scots too daft to be able to realise these things? I don't think so, tho there's always the possibility they'll prove me wrong.