The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Scottish Islands

as far as I am concerned, If they wanted independence they are as entitled to it as anyone else.

Ahh, OK.... and what will Scotland do for money?

Social Justice

There is a general commitment to Social justice

No different to the tories then - even they claim to represent social justice.

"vote for us, and we'll make everyone's lives better" - the words of every political party ever.

So, no greater commitment from Scotland to social justice then - just the same empty words. Otherwise they'd be firm promises, yet the only firm promise is more money for the richest.

Oh & on bedroom tax whilst the Money to mitigate the worst effects of this ill thought out propsal, the commitment to abolish it is a part of the Snp White Paper.

Nothing extra that Scotland is offering then over the UK.

(in both cases, it's something which only happens if the right party gets voted in to power).

and I don't know where you got this from "And yet (at least some of) the "track record in addressing inequality" that you're crediting the SNP with is the direct policy of those hated Etonite Tories."

from what I replied to, there is the belief that the discresionary payments is the SG's doing. It's not. It's tory policy.

For all you and I know, the SNP might not much like that tory policy, but might feel shamed into doing it because 'the English' are.

Whatever, it's not anything of the SG that those payments exist.

Unless you count introducing a divisive & unfair bedroom tax - then allocating a few quid to make it a bit less unfair as addressing inequality

The SNP had the power (but gave it up!!!) to address that better, but chose not to - because they don't want the rich to help support the poor to a greater extent than currently.

There's claims of "we're against inequality" and then there's actions - actions that the SNP could have taken but chose not to. Why didn't they?

It would require them to tax Scottish people more than they're taxed currently.

A devolved Scotland would pay those taxes to be "against inequality" if all the statements about iScotland held true. The fact that no party is offering them up gets to show why true Scottish opinion on greate4r social justice lies - in the same place as UK. It's only good if someone else is paying for it.

[eFestivals]

http://www.bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/read-the-report/devolution/trends-in-national-identity.aspx

and less than 50% do when it comes to putting it into practice.

[eFestivals]

Help ma boab! All those pages in the white paper ( was it 650 or 670?) & they could only manage one measly promise.

& they call themselves politicians

Look a wee bit harder & I'm sure you find at least a couple more

not firm monetary promises. There's only one of those. More jam for the very richest, but ONLY the richest!!

There's lots of other vague suggestions of jam, and some even suggest where the money will come from - but none of those promises cover the effect of that moved money, instead suggesting that Scotland can somehow do all the same things for much less money (something every party promises and none achieve).

[eFestivals]

For most of the lifetime of the Scottish Parliament there has not been a credible left wing option.

And that's because...?

1. Scotland is a left-wing country but all the left-wing politicians have been shot dead, so that's why there's no left-wing party.

or

2. Something else

?

You don't know Scottish politics if you do not believe there is significant support for left wing policies.

I can count the votes tho. Where's your own error happening?

Cybernats

Yup there are some crazy people saying some crazy things, on both sides - my sense is there are more on the Yes side but you won't have to go far to find Cyberbrits either.

As far as I see it they are more likely to turn folk off.

you're spot on.

But apparently, there's growing support for independence, you can hear it on the streets.

It is a bit of a fact of modern life - I had a very brief look att eh comments on the Guardians peice about the UKip rise in the polls - a few nutters there.

it's actually calmed down a lot since the beginning of the year!

But there's the same blind trust in everything white paper, and in nothing of Westminster ... oh, apart from the blind trust in an unnamed minister who said that currency is up for negotiation after all (but no trust in any minister who'll go on the record), and in half (just half) of a Treasury statement.

But it's the English who are liars and distrustful, yeah, without anything similarly stupid in that blind faith?

As for your suggestion that if rUK were to withdraw UK citizenship from Scots it would guarantee a "no" vote, I think you may be right in suggesting it would not be believed. The NO campaign seems to to be in a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.

And yet, and yet .... it's possible for rUK to say something which is true, no matter whether the Scots believe it or not. Who's the mug here?

That 'belief in the statement' issue aside, how do you think the vote would go if there wasn't the "UK fall-back" option via continuing UK citizenship? Do you think Scotland would feel just as confident to vote yes, or might the Scottish people's own fears about what Scotland might do to Scotland be greater than fear of what Westminster might do to Scotland?

(it would be interesting to see what happens if UK citizenship was withdrawn).

I have no doubt some of the concerns they raise are genuine ... the pensions thing is one, but instead of focussing on a few areas they have had a scattergun approach auto-rubbishing every claim the Yes side makes. Even if every Yes claim IS rubbish, it is not sensible tactics.

"It's stupid to expose the stupid". Hmm, OK.

This is the Scottish electorate you're talking about yeah, the same electorate that Buff said was "more sophisticated" (a claim I've seen repeated many times elsewhere, btw)?

And when you say "the pensions thing", which particular pensions thing do you mean?

Cos there's the state pension thing.

Then there's the EU pension rules thing.

Then there's the loss of Scottish pensions industry jobs thing, and associated costs.

Then there's the loss of SG tax revenue from the profits of pensions thing.

The state pensions thing is the one pensions thing iScotland will have sovereign control of, the others they don't, and the others have huge unaccounted-for costs for iScotland.

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

For most of the lifetime of the Scottish Parliament there has not been a credible left wing option.

And that's because...?

1. Scotland is a left-wing country but all the left-wing politicians have been shot dead, so that's why there's no left-wing party.

or

2. Something else

?

You don't know Scottish politics if you do not believe there is significant support for left wing policies.

I can count the votes tho.

Where's your own error happening?

Cybernats

Yup there are some crazy people saying some crazy things, on both sides - my sense is there are more on the Yes side but you won't have to go far to find Cyberbrits either.

As far as I see it they are more likely to turn folk off.

you're spot on.

But apparently, there's growing support for independence, you can hear it on the streets.

It is a bit of a fact of modern life - I had a very brief look att eh comments on the Guardians peice about the UKip rise in the polls - a few nutters there.

it's actually calmed down a lot since the beginning of the year!

But the4re's the same blind trust in everything white paper, and in nothing of Westminster ... oh, apart from the blind trust in an unnamed minister who said that currency is up for negotiation after all (but no trust in any minister who'll go on the record), and in half (just half) of a Treasury statement.

But it's the English who are liars and distrustful, yeah, without anything similarly stupid in that blind faith?

As for your suggestion that if rUK were to withdraw UK citizenship from Scots it would guarantee a "no" vote, I think you may be right in suggesting it would not be believed. The NO campaign seems to to be in a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.

And yet, and yet .... it's possible for rUK to say something which is true, no matter whether the Scots believe it or not. Who's the mug here?

That 'belief in the statement' issue aside, how do you think the vote would go if there wasn't the "UK fall-back" option via continuing UK citizenship? Do you think Scotland would feel just as confident to vote yes, or might the Scottish people's own fears about what Scotland might do to Scotland be greater than fear of what Westminster might do to Scotland?

(it would be interesting to see what happens if UK citizenship was withdrawn).

I have no doubt some of the concerns they raise are genuine ... the pensions thing is one, but instead of focussing on a few areas they have had a scattergun approach auto-rubbishing every claim the Yes side makes. Even if every Yes claim IS rubbish, it is not sensible tactics.

"It's stupid to expose the stupid". Hmm, OK.

This is the Scottish electorate you're talking about yeah, the same electorate that Buff said was "more sophisticated" (a claim I've seen repeated many times elsewhere, btw)?

And when you say "the pensions thing", which particular pensions thing do you mean?

Cos there's the state pension thing.

Then there's the EU pension rules thing.

Then there's the loss of Scottish pensions industry jobs thing, and associated costs.

Then there's the loss of SG tax revenue from the profits of pensions thing.

The state pensions thing is the one pensions thing iScotland will have sovereign control of, the others they don't, and the others have huge unaccounted-for costs for iScotland.

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

The SNP don't lie to you then?

Or will you happily state that the SNP have told Scotland clearly that in 2012 Scotland 'spunged' off the English?

(and that it'll be the same in 2013, and 2014.... what happens in 2015 will be interesting, cos will 'England' give Scotland money that iScotland says it won't pay back?

And it gets even more interesting in 2016, when iScotland will have a bigger deficit than rUK but little chance of rUK financial support, and (under any of the white paper currency plans) more expensive borrowing costs than rUK.

Why do so few in Scotland know these Scottish Govt / SNP-agreed-with facts?

But don't worry, eh? In 2017* Scotland will suddenly be flooded with money, £300k for each true Scotman.

(* that's if the oil estimates unique to the SNP but not the oil industry all come true).

As, I am sure you are aware

and less than 50% do when it comes to putting it into practice.

You will be astonished to learn that, as far as I am concerned you can be pro union & still consider yourself Scottish.

I'm only saying us Scots think of ourselves as a nation, We may well choose to continue to be part of the UK. That will not stop us believing we are a nation. Please don't get nation & nationalism mixed up.

& as for Sponging off the UK. As I am sure you are aware separating out revenue & expenditure is not a straightforward matter. Some of the money attributed to Scottish expenditure is not spent in Scotland & there a degree of estimation there. There is also the question of how to attribute North sea Oil revenues. And after all that, if you then get a figure that says we spent more than we contributed, well so did the rest of the UK which is currently running a budget deficit.

Is it a surprise that, given all the variables both sides are able to come up with statistics to support their case?

Its a bit like when people debate the EU- it's easy to come up with statistics to say how much we benefit from EU membership. It is equally easy to come with stats showing how much EU membership costs us.

Are the SNP lying? not any more or less than better Together is my opinion.

But then, as you know I am not voting for the jam so it's kind of water off a duck's back to me

[LJS]

But it's the English who are liars and distrustful, yeah, without anything similarly stupid in that blind faith?

who's saying this?

not me for sure.

[eFestivals]

it's usually a sure sign someone is losing an argument when they bring the Nazis into it.

Unnecessary & uncalled for

So Scotland (nor anyone else) can learn nothing from history?

If you care to notice my statement was not about (specifically) Scotland, but about nationalists everywhere (including in England) - who all do the same thing. The same thing as the Nazi's did.

"It's all the fault of them".

It's very necessary and called for, if you don't want to be eating your own shite.

(that's not me saying that in iScotland everyone will be literally eating their own shit, just in case someone unhinged wants to take it that way ).

[LJS]

Neil,

I think we should both remember the wise words of ComfortablyNumb

I`ve been following this for a wee while now and that last bit is to both your credit. You mentioned having a nice cool beer earlier ( cheers ) and I would imagine you and Neil would get on brilliant over a pint and would have a great old debate. I sense you are pretty similar fellas.*

& calm down a wee bit.

I am off for some sunshine & perchance a small beer

Love & Jam

[eFestivals]

Please don't get nation & nationalism mixed up.

it's not a problem i'm suffering from, I assure you.

& as for Sponging off the UK. As I am sure you are aware separating out revenue & expenditure is not a straightforward matter. Some of the money attributed to Scottish expenditure is not spent in Scotland & there a degree of estimation there. There is also the question of how to attribute North sea Oil revenues.

"sponging" was me taking the piss out of the usual wording, just to ensure that's clear.

Using the SG's own method for accounting for the oil & gas revenue, Scotland raised 9.1% of UK revenue in 2012, and received 9.3% back via the Barnett formula. Sponging!

All other money is classed as "UK costs", and so is spent equally on Scotland. iScotland might choose to spend 'national' money in different ways, but until it's doing that it's of no relevance.

At this moment in time, Scotland *IS* 'sponging' off 'England'.

That's a fact, but a fact that the SNP would rather you didn't know when you make your decision about independence. Funny that, eh?

if you then get a figure that says we spent more than we contributed, well so did the rest of the UK which is currently running a budget deficit.

You're missing the point.

The point is this: The deficit is bigger in Scotland.

Is it a surprise that, given all the variables both sides are able to come up with statistics to support their case?

Unfortunately for your own argument, that's not what's happening. I'm using the Scottish Govts own numbers and method of calculation, as you're able to read for yourself on the website of the government you wish to be independent.

The SNP say that doesn't matter, because in their wonderful iScotland from 2017 the oil will flow big-time - so big in fact that the oil industry can't agree with what the SNP say.

Its a bit like when people debate the EU- it's easy to come up with statistics to say how much we benefit from EU membership. It is equally easy to come with stats showing how much EU membership costs us.

it's only a bit like that. Just a bit tho, not very much at all.

Are the SNP lying? not any more or less than better Together is my opinion.

They lie about different things for different reasons.

What we do know tho is that BT's numbers add-up, cos the budgets currently balance with all of the current expenditure.

We also know that right now, the financial reality is vastly different to what the SNP pretend to be the reality, as you can read on the SG's own website.

And we also know that the financial reality in an iScotland would be very hard to sustain as it is now, because the SNP are using oil estimates unique to the SNP and no one else.

(the SNP have actually got a bit lucky with the numbers they plucked out the air, cos the estimates have gone up since the SNP invented those numbers, so allowing them to claim "the estimates are still too low".)

But then, as you know I am not voting for the jam so it's kind of water off a duck's back to me

I wonder how many will brush-off their changed financial future in the same way?

It's easy to say "the English are lying", it'll be hard to accept that the Scots lie just as much.

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

& calm down a wee bit.

I'm calm. There's nothing for me to win or lose here.

But hey, if you think debate is losing it, it's an easy victory for the SNP and iScotland lives happily ever after. Go for it.

[eFestivals]

who's saying this?

not me for sure.

Yeah, you've not suggested that the "no CU" thing is bullshit, have you?

Until the facts prove otherwise, the wise choice is to take that statement as a fact - because it's not any decision for iScotland, and it's not a financial decision for rUK. It's a political decision.

Amongst all the bullshit and counter claims, one thing is very certain - and that's that all major UK parties are politically opposed to currency union without greater political integration, and have been for 25+ years.

[Buff124]

Hello everyone. Hope you've all had a nice Easter/Ishtar/Whatever

...and here we go again.

On Salmond=Farrage. If anyone in Scotland drew that comparison they would be laughed at in the streets. Come up and visit, try it for yourself .

On SNP=UKIP. See above. It's completely out of touch with the public perception of the SNP being to the left of Labour. How does it square with the SNPs welcome for more immigration, for instance ?

On firm political promises being made by politicans. Do I need to say anything about oxymorons?

On Scotland having a relatively sophisticated electorate. I said that due to the range of electoral mechanisms used for Council, Holyrood, Westminster & Euro elections.

On what Scotland would do for money(1). Thought we'd been through all that. CU is on the table , nothing is non-negotiable. The 'Show Us Yer Plan B' is a busted flush due to comments on record by Defence Minister. I'm all for recycling but doesn't it get tiresome typing the same stuff day after day ? There's months to go yet......

On what Scotland would do for money (2). Oh so we're back to the Scotland is/will be an economic basket case argument again ? Thought we'd been through all that too. Punching Scotland in the face, metaphorically speaking (remember the Malcolm Tucker clip?) has proven to be at the least tractionless and at the most a PR disaster and potential referendum loser

Edited April 21, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

On Salmond=Farrage. If anyone in Scotland drew that comparison they would be laughed at in the streets. Come up and visit, try it for yourself .

you're obviously not getting it. I'm not trying to say they're one and the same. They very clearly have different policies.

I'm saying that they both play the nationalist game the same, as all nationalists do.

All of the problems are the fault of "them" - that's the EU in UKIP's case and Westminster in the SNP's - and that any good things are the result of the natural talent of those who reside within the country.

As two easy examples of how the SNP are doing that and Scots are falling for it:-

1. the bedroom tax discretionary payments are a fantastic thing done by the SNP (they're not, they're a policy from Westminster).

2. "how dare those English tories call us scroungers. We've been self-sufficient for 30 years" .... but not before then, and not from 2012 until 2017 (say the SNP themselves!!! if you listen to them whisper it in barely audible words), and who knows what will happen after 2017?

How does it square with the SNPs welcome for more immigration, for instance ?

as I say, the policies are different but the game is the same.

But, perhaps, you'd like to tell me how the SNP will be able to welcome more immigration, when they've said they'll follow the union immigration policies?

(Or alternatively, if they don't follow UK policy, tell me how much you'll love those Scotland/rUK border posts ).

On firm political promises being made by politicans. Do I need to say anything about oxymorons?

so what you're saying is that there's big benefit in swapping one set of liars for another?

On Scotland having a relatively sophisticated electorate. I said that due to the range of electoral mechanisms used for Council, Holyrood, Westminster & Euro elections.

mechanisms decided in horrible useless Westminster, and which cause 50% of Scots to ignore Scottish elections?

CU is on the table , nothing is non-negotiable.

yes say it's on the table.

And if nothing is non-negotiable, I'll enjoy visiting iScotland to also visit the UK sovereign territory of Faslane.

The 'Show Us Yer Plan B' is a busted flush due to comments on record by Defence Minister.

where he said "if you give us Faslane, we might allow you to share the UK currency" you mean?

You lot seem to forget the "Faslane" bit. Why's that then?

Oh so we're back to the Scotland is/will be an economic basket case argument again ?

who has said that? not me.

I've pointed out the *FACT* that the white paper uses oil revenue estimates that are unique to the SNP. The oil industry say they're wrong, and if they are then there's a big black hole in the financial plans.

I've also pointed out the fact that often heralded "Scotland pays more into the UK than it gets out" is a myth on two distinct and different levels.

The first fact you can check with the Scottish oil industry. The 2nd fact you can check with Alex himself.

That doesn't mean "basket case", but it does mean that the stated financial plans are a crock of shit.

Thought we'd been through all that too. Punching Scotland in the face, metaphorically speaking (remember the Malcolm Tucker clip?) has proven to be at the least tractionless and at the most a PR disaster and potential referendum loser

Saying relevant words is as useful to Scots as that punch.

Oh well, just remember that you can't vote yourself back in when you find out Alex is a liar.

[eFestivals]

PS ... there's nothing good about the union, apart from...

1. it's currency.

2. it's immigration policies.

3. it's university research funding scheme

4. its driving licences

5. its EU membership

6. its NATO membership

7. it's stealable tax base

Damn, I've forgetten too many of the other good things that the independence white paper lists as the great things about the union.

[Buff124]

PS ... there's nothing good about the union, apart from...

1. it's currency.

2. it's immigration policies.

3. it's university research funding scheme

4. its driving licences

5. its EU membership

6. its NATO membership

7. it's stealable tax base

Damn, I've forgetten too many of the other good things that the independence white paper lists as the great things about the union.

One more time. In the event of a Yes vote, everything is up for negotiation. Do you agree with that or not ?

[LJS]

One more time. In the event of a Yes vote, everything is up for negotiation. Do you agree with that or not ?

You are of course correct. Indeed the Edinburgh agreement contains a commitment from both sides to constructive negotiations in the event of a yes vote. Can't remember the exact wording.

Neil will however doubtless be along in a minute to put us right.

[LJS]

In 2013 the UK had a budget deficit of £108billion.

So we all got more than we raised in tax.I think that works out about £1800 per head.

Edited April 21, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

PS ... there's nothing good about the union, apart from...

1. it's currency.

2. it's immigration policies.

3. it's university research funding scheme

4. its driving licences

5. its EU membership

6. its NATO membership

7. it's stealable tax base

Damn, I've forgetten too many of the other good things that the independence white paper lists as the great things about the union.

The problem with making lists like this is they start off great then after 2or3 things you look at & think..."hmm I need a few more things or it'll look pretty rubbish.

The end result is a "list of 2 halves"

"well, Brian we were great in the first half but as the second half wore on, we began to look more & more desperate."

[LJS]

Are the snp to the left of labour?

Lets ask Tommy Sheridan...he knows more about being left wing than most of us.

"I remember commenting on an SNP victory four years ago, and in the midst of the deep disappointment of losing my seat in Glasgow by 1% point I called it a shift to the left, and predicted the SNP would be in power for perhaps a generation. Thats because their social policies and attitudes in relation to a public health service, opposition to illegal wars and nuclear weapons, positive relationships and dialogue with many Trade Unions chimes with the heart of Scotland and the overwhelming mood that used to be reflected in a left of centre Labour party, but which now now finds that space abandoned by that partys pursuit of a Thatcherite and big business agenda.

The reality is that on all the major issues thrown up in the course of the last election and this one the SNP is the left of centre party."

[LJS]

So Scotland (nor anyone else) can learn nothing from history?

If you care to notice my statement was not about (specifically) Scotland, but about nationalists everywhere (including in England) - who all do the same thing. The same thing as the Nazi's did.

"It's all the fault of them".

It's very necessary and called for, if you don't want to be eating your own shite.

(that's not me saying that in iScotland everyone will be literally eating their own shit, just in case someone unhinged wants to take it that way ).

You say the tactics of the Snp & ukip are similar to tha Nazis.

I say there is no justification in bringing the Nazis into it.

You say "so Scotland can learn nothing from history"

So because I challenge you bringing the Nazis into it, I am somehow saying we can't learn lessons from history.

There is precisely zero logic in your argument.

Edited April 21, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

On sophisticated electorate Buffy said

"On Scotland having a relatively sophisticated electorate. I said that due to the range of electoral mechanisms used for Council, Holyrood, Westminster & Euro elections"

Now,I'm not sure I totally agree with this. But Neil's response...

"mechanisms decided in horrible useless Westminster, and which cause 50% of Scots to ignore Scottish elections?"

is of no significance at all to Buff's argument. Completely irrelevant!

[Comfy Bean]

On the bedroom tax, as I understand it, the SNP had to ask Westminster to lift a cap on the amount they could use to help the people affected ( victims )...something to do with a % rule ? along the lines of.... Please can we be allowed to help more people who have no money and you are going to cut their housing benefit. They can`t move to a smaller place because we aint got no 1 bedroom flats left or they can`t manage to walk upstairs to get into them etc

An indy Scotland would not have such a tax so that would simplify that. We also have the same Council Tax reduction scheme across our 32 Councils to help those who cannot afford to pay.

On Patrick Harvie and the Greens, my opinion is that they are bigger fish now because of being in a smaller pond. With the natural resources Scotland have in renewable energy then them having more and more say is a good thing in my book. Going forward many jobs / industry could be created around these resources.

[Comfy Bean]

One more time. In the event of a Yes vote, everything is up for negotiation. Do you agree with that or not ?

This does seem to get a bit lost during the indepedence debate. The tax / jam questions etc would all be put up for a decision by both yes and no voters. I mentioned before that I think the SNP as I have known them will die ( to a point ) if we get a YES vote.

[eFestivals]

One more time. In the event of a Yes vote, everything is up for negotiation. Do you agree with that or not ?

yes and no. A side can ask, the other side might say "that's non-negotiable".

For example, both sides have said there's a red line thru Faslane and CU, and both sides insist till they're blue in the face that they won't shift this position.

But funnily enough, up in Scotland there seems to be a massive number of people who think Faslane is an immovable red line but that CU is as good as a done deal. Might that be because they're mugging themselves?