The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

My words don't say what he claimed for them.

Always a row over fluff, never a debate of the facts.

i repeat 

 

" . Your words are, at the very least, ambiguous. "

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

Neil, your post was made in the general discussion thread on here on the 1st of November. 

Is this the one you checked back? I fear the Internet will explode if I have to quote everything again. 

Do you even see the point I was attempting to make with your words in that post compared to the results in the poll you linked to in here? 

We normally disagree. I have no desire or need to twist anything you say :-) 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

i repeat 

 

" . Your words are, at the very least, ambiguous. "

but it's not possible for the meaning of them to come out as Comfy said they meant. That takes his stupidity and not my ambiguity. :rolleyes:

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Neil, your post was made in the general discussion thread on here on the 1st of November. 

Is this the one you checked back? I fear the Internet will explode if I have to quote everything again. 

Do you even see the point I was attempting to make with your words in that post compared to the results in the poll you linked to in here? 

We normally disagree. I have no desire or need to twist anything you say :-) 

 

Just a lack of brain cells then. I guess I got it right in one of my posts yesterday.

Meanwhile, that survey proves there's no great Scottish political awakening, just an unthinking mob mentality.

[eFestivals]

So, anyway....

Comfy used to say before the indyref that an iScotland could self-fund without making massive cuts.

Then the oil price crashed, but he said it didn't matter because the oil price would be high again by April 2016.

Now April 2016 is near and the price isn't going back up, it's changed again, and he now says that Scotland will be in a position to self fund in the future without making massive cuts (tho he has no idea of how that might happen).

Funnily enough, exactly the same denial chain has been laid out by WoS over the last year, with WoS now admitting that an iScotland would have been financially fucked if Scotland had voted yes last year, but is desperately inventing new ideas via non-facts to try an hold up its hollow claims.

It's so laughable that they're claiming a Scottish defence budget that's smaller than the deficit can be used to pay for defence services AND to cover the deficit.
Which is very like Comfy's often said "train sets" which aren't currently detailed as a Scottish cost within GERS (instead the full cost is put onto rUK) and therefore cannot be clawed back as any beneficial saving towards that deficit.

(but if Comfy wants to regard those 'train sets', etc as a Scottish cost, all he's really doing is growing Scotland's deficit by including them as a cost, and declaring Scotland as even more financially fucked than GERS does).

Meanwhile the SNP are running scared of FFA and of the new Scotland Act provisions - which are not-coming to the tax rates on your wages in April 2016, exposing the lie that Scotland would pay for more taxes for Scottish services.

Edited November 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

So, anyway....

Comfy used to say before the indyref that an iScotland could self-fund without making massive cuts.

Then the oil price crashed, but he said it didn't matter because the oil price would be high again by April 2016.

Now April 2016 is near and the price isn't going back up, it's changed again, and he now says that Scotland will be in a position to self fund in the future without making massive cuts (tho he has no idea of how that might happen).

No he doesn't.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Funnily enough, exactly the same denial chain has been laid out by WoS over the last year, with WoS now admitting that an iScotland would have been financially fucked if Scotland had voted yes last year, but is desperately inventing new ideas via non-facts to try an hold up its hollow claims.

It's so laughable that they're claiming a Scottish defence budget that's smaller than the deficit can be used to pay for defence services AND to cover the deficit.

No they don't

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

Which is very like Comfy's often said "train sets" which aren't currently detailed as a Scottish cost within GERS (instead the full cost is put onto rUK) and therefore cannot be clawed back as any beneficial saving towards that deficit.

(but if Comfy wants to regard those 'train sets', etc as a Scottish cost, all he's really doing is growing Scotland's deficit by including them as a cost, and declaring Scotland as even more financially fucked than GERS does).

Meanwhile the SNP are running scared of FFA and of the new Scotland Act provisions - which are not-coming to the tax rates on your wages in April 2016, exposing the lie that Scotland would pay for more taxes for Scottish services.

probably rubbish too - but then I don't really understand what you are saying.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

No he doesn't.

If he doesn't, he's accepting worse-than-tory-cuts as an unavoidable consequence - which makes the tories the nice guys.

I wish you lot could make up your mind what you want.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

No they don't

probably rubbish too - but then I don't really understand what you are saying.

They don't? Really?

Firstly, you obviously read it, else you wouldn't claim to know what it's said. Which explains a lot.

And secondly, you'ver either not read this piece or your underst6anding &/or attention to detail is pitifully poor.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-poverty-of-imagination/

What do you think it's saying?

Does it accept the oil price has fucked Scotland's ability to self-finance? Yep.

Does it then suggest that can be covered off by defence cuts? Yes it does.

Oh dear.

The imagination of that article is very definitely imagination.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Does it suggest that the whole alleged deficit can be covered by defence cuts?

 

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Does it suggest that the whole alleged deficit can be covered by defence cuts?

 

Nope. But it says "billions" can be taken from the defence budget.

Which is very different to the white paper, that claimed just £500M could be got from there - and it only managed that via the bullshit that rUK would provide iScotland with free defence services for the things that Scotland didn't want to pay for itself.

And it's also an admission that there's a massive deficit - a first for WoS.

And it's also an admission that the deficit needs to be covered (and can't be ignored) - a first for WoS.

And it's also an admission that iScotland would be in the financial shit without massive cuts - a first for WoS.

But I guess you missed those bits? :lol:

 

[LJS]

Ah, so you were lying when you said the bishop of bath said defence cuts could cover the deficit. Thanks for the clarification.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

Ah, so you were lying when you said the bishop of bath said defence cuts could cover the deficit. Thanks for the clarification.

and the lies over several years by WoS that there was no deficit to cover...?

That's even been your own line.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So, anyway....

Comfy used to say before the indyref that an iScotland could self-fund without making massive cuts.

Did I ? Do you mean I said Scotland would take a different path and would be governed by an SNP Government or a Labour one who would lead us down that path with very different policies that would hopefully suit or Country. I remember mentioning renewables and being less reliant on casino type financial industries. I probably also mentioned my view that Countries a whole lot " poorer " than Scotland managed to be Independent.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Then the oil price crashed, but he said it didn't matter because the oil price would be high again by April 2016.

Did I ? Or did I point out the folly of rejoicing on here at what the oil price would be way in advance. Just ask your mate Salmond how that can turn out 

Now April 2016 is near and the price isn't going back up, it's changed again, and he now says that Scotland will be in a position to self fund in the future without making massive cuts (tho he has no idea of how that might happen).

Did I ? I thought I made it crystal clear yesterday on why I was talking about 10 years down the road. There will be no Indy Scotland in the near future so I`m looking ahead till the next time.  The last bit of that you have very obviously made up for a laugh or whatever.

Funnily enough, exactly the same denial chain has been laid out by WoS over the last year, with WoS now admitting that an iScotland would have been financially fucked if Scotland had voted yes last year, but is desperately inventing new ideas via non-facts to try an hold up its hollow claims.

That last bit is the modern day equivalent in my view of " a man down the pub told me ". I don`t do Wings as I`ve said before. 

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

It's so laughable that they're claiming a Scottish defence budget that's smaller than the deficit can be used to pay for defence services AND to cover the deficit.
Which is very like Comfy's often said "train sets" which aren't currently detailed as a Scottish cost within GERS (instead the full cost is put onto rUK) and therefore cannot be clawed back as any beneficial saving towards that deficit.

Out of respect to Gary, I`m no longer engaging in any chat around my tax coin going towards olympics, trains, sewerage projects in London. We`ve been over and over and over my opinion. I will however continue to defend the Scottish Govt supporting our airports when some would have them all shut down and instead have us all heading down to use London airports.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

(but if Comfy wants to regard those 'train sets', etc as a Scottish cost, all he's really doing is growing Scotland's deficit by including them as a cost, and declaring Scotland as even more financially fucked than GERS does).

So your saying that Scotland is in a financial mess. How long do you think their finances have been mismanaged ? Are we talking decades....

I thought I was the one supporting change 

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Meanwhile the SNP are running scared of FFA and of the new Scotland Act provisions - which are not-coming to the tax rates on your wages in April 2016, exposing the lie that Scotland would pay for more taxes for Scottish services.

What do you mean by the SNP running scared of FFA ? Serious question.

If we were independent of course, their / my first choice obviously, then this would be irrelevant.

[Comfy Bean]

14 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Just a lack of brain cells then. I guess I got it right in one of my posts yesterday.

Meanwhile, that survey proves there's no great Scottish political awakening, just an unthinking mob mentality.

Are we calling polls " surveys " now 

As I said at the time, you are not taking this news well. What`s your view on the SNP support amongst our youth ?

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Did I ? Do you mean I said Scotland would take a different path and would be governed by an SNP Government or a Labour one who would lead us down that path with very different policies that would hopefully suit or Country. I remember mentioning renewables and being less reliant on casino type financial industries. I probably also mentioned my view that Countries a whole lot " poorer " than Scotland managed to be Independent.

That last bit is the modern day equivalent in my view of " a man down the pub told me ". I don`t do Wings as I`ve said before. 

Out of respect to Gary, I`m no longer engaging in any chat around my tax coin going towards olympics, trains, sewerage projects in London. We`ve been over and over and over my opinion. I will however continue to defend the Scottish Govt supporting our airports when some would have them all shut down and instead have us all heading down to use London airports.

So your saying that Scotland is in a financial mess. How long do you think their finances have been mismanaged ? Are we talking decades....

I thought I was the one supporting change 

What do you mean by the SNP running scared of FFA ? Serious question.

If we were independent of course, their / my first choice obviously, then this would be irrelevant.

You continually roll out the "too wee too poor too stupiud" thing, as you've done (with other words) in that first para. The only thing 'too wee too poor too stupid' about Scotland are the brains of people like you who trot out that line.

You then claim that that there London wants to shut down all Scottish airports and steal their custom, and nothing to do with Scotland having more airports than its population can support. Your your best arguments are utter fantasy.

You then obfusicate Scotland's financial position. Scotland has an economic vibrancy to match the UK average, but it also has a terrain and population spread that is not the UK average and which brings significantly higher costs. Scotland''s finances are in an utter mess because of English largess towards Scotland with English money to rightfully cover those extra costs. If Scotland doesn't want to be in that utter mess caused by the English propping up Scotland, Scotland is free to throw off that financial support and work with the lower money that the rest of the UK has to cope with ... but Scotland won't reject that extra money (even when it says it will do, laughably), proving...? That it's all about the money..

>What do you mean by the SNP running scared of FFA ? Serious question.

I see you didn't bother to read their laughable FFA amendments to the Scotland Act. "WE want FFA, but only when we say so, and only after we've fleeced rUK by so much that rUK is paying for that 'self funding'".

> If we were independent of course, their / my first choice obviously, then this would be irrelevant.

but the £10Bn of cuts wouldn't be.

It's the £10Bn of cuts that would need to be made which makes a self-funding Scotland a never-happening irrelevance.

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Are we calling polls " surveys " now 

As I said at the time, you are not taking this news well. What`s your view on the SNP support amongst our youth ?

How would that support hold up if the SNP stopped being the party of all mouth and no trousers, got FFA and decimated Scotland's economy?

FFA would make tory cuts look like a picnic.

But let's all pretend that £10Bn can be magicked out of the sky so we can keep the fantasy going.

 

[eFestivals]

hey comfy, what's going to be your excuse next April for why Scotland doesn't want to pay extra taxes for solely Scottish benefit, contrary to everything that gets claimed about Scotland?

If Scotland really wants self-funding, it only has to ask - but honestly. "Give us FFA today" is all it takes. Cameron would give it to you.

[russycarps]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Are we calling polls " surveys " now 

As I said at the time, you are not taking this news well. What`s your view on the SNP support amongst our youth ?

the problem is, the youth grow up

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by russycarps

[Comfy Bean]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

How would that support hold up if the SNP stopped being the party of all mouth and no trousers, got FFA and decimated Scotland's economy?

FFA would make tory cuts look like a picnic.

But let's all pretend that £10Bn can be magicked out of the sky so we can keep the fantasy going.

 

This discussion is going nowhere if your only going to answer a question with a question 

Remember you used to pretend the figure was £15Bn 

[Comfy Bean]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

hey comfy, what's going to be your excuse next April for why Scotland doesn't want to pay extra taxes for solely Scottish benefit, contrary to everything that gets claimed about Scotland?

If Scotland really wants self-funding, it only has to ask - but honestly. "Give us FFA today" is all it takes. Cameron would give it to you.

You must have missed it but I`ve been suggesting for quite sometime that Scotland should have a go at paying tax solely for our benefit etc.

I also supported the SNP when they said give us control of everything please thank you and we will go our own way.

[Comfy Bean]

11 hours ago, russycarps said:

the problem is, the youth grow up

 

Fair point Russy. I think you are right and would totally agree that as people move up through the ages their opinions on this seem to change. The polls back up your point ( unfortunately ).

It`s a difficult one for NS. Both her and her party are seeing incredible support. It won`t last for ever but she cannot possibly call another vote for tomorrow as some on here have suggested !

I think they have been 8 years in " power " up here so you would expect support to be on the slide not the opposite. If they can continue to hang on to a good % of their huge support with the current under 34`s as they grow older and then can gain the support of the next generation then Indy will be a shoe in.

Just realised that these " next generation " of voters will only have ever known a Tory Govt 

Can I ask you a question just for fun. If you were in your 20`s ( apologies if you are ) and you lived in Scotland, would you have voted YES for Independence last year ?

[kaosmark2]

57 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Fair point Russy. I think you are right and would totally agree that as people move up through the ages their opinions on this seem to change. The polls back up your point ( unfortunately ).

It`s a difficult one for NS. Both her and her party are seeing incredible support. It won`t last for ever but she cannot possibly call another vote for tomorrow as some on here have suggested !

I think they have been 8 years in " power " up here so you would expect support to be on the slide not the opposite. If they can continue to hang on to a good % of their huge support with the current under 34`s as they grow older and then can gain the support of the next generation then Indy will be a shoe in.

Just realised that these " next generation " of voters will only have ever known a Tory Govt 

Can I ask you a question just for fun. If you were in your 20`s ( apologies if you are ) and you lived in Scotland, would you have voted YES for Independence last year ?

I'm in my 20s and I'm Scottish. You know my answer.

[Comfy Bean]

Fair enough mate. Canny mind if you got a vote, moved away etc? 

Think the majority your age voted yes so the game is to hold onto as many as them as possible. 

Could you ever see yourself voting yes? 

If you don't mind me asking, who would you vote for next year if you have / had a vote? 

Polls show most folk think the snp 56 have made a decent fist of being an opposition to the tories and standing against the tax credit cuts etc. 

Expect they will again get the big numbers our parliament was designed to prevent.

 

[LJS]

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

If Scotland really wants self-funding, it only has to ask - but honestly. "Give us FFA today" is all it takes. Cameron would give it to you.

Rubbish - he has categorically said he won't.

12 hours ago, russycarps said:

the problem is, the youth grow up

 

They do. But the most of the current crop of oldies opposing Indy have probably opposed it (like most of us) consistently throughout their lives. They are also the generation that, by and large doesn't do the internet & relies on traditional media (which is almost entirely anti-Indy) for their news. Will people who are in their 40's & 50's today & who are well used to getting their news from a wide variety of sources and are not already overwhelmingly anti-Indy necessarily become anti Indy in sufficient numbers to replace the No's who die? 

 

I think it would be dangerous for the Fukers to rely on this.

 

 

[LJS]

23 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I'm in my 20s and I'm Scottish. You know my answer.

he didn't ask if you were Scottish - he asked if you lived in Scotland. 

 

I don't expect the answer will be different but it's always better to answer the question as it is asked.