The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

You are of course correct. Indeed the Edinburgh agreement contains a commitment from both sides to constructive negotiations in the event of a yes vote. Can't remember the exact wording.

Neil will however doubtless be along in a minute to put us right.

"constructive negotiations" does not mean that people on either side will definitely change their minds.

If you can't see iScotland handing over Faslane, then it's probably best to start thinking in another currency.

[eFestivals]

In 2013 the UK had a budget deficit of £108billion.

So we all got more than we raised in tax.I think that works out about £1800 per head.

it's a bit disingenuous to change the discussion to try and deflect from the fact that Scotland is not as financially sound as the SNP and yes are telling the Scottish people, eh?

But yes, there was a deficit for the whole of the UK, but the deficit in Scotland was bigger than the UK average.

[eFestivals]

The problem with making lists like this is they....

... reveal the bullshit which says "there's nothing good about the union".

When it's the yes campaign that is listing all the good things about the union that they don't wish to give up while their supporters mindlessly repeat "there's nothing good about the union" with no correction of the facts being done by their countrymen, you get to know that those who want a yes result are no better than the Westminster they despise but imitate.

Edited April 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Lets ask Tommy Sheridan...he knows more about being left wing than most of us.

and he also knows more about the politics of lying than the SNP.

FFS.

[eFestivals]

You say the tactics of the Snp & ukip are similar to tha Nazis.

I say there is no justification in bringing the Nazis into it.

You say "so Scotland can learn nothing from history"

So because I challenge you bringing the Nazis into it, I am somehow saying we can't learn lessons from history.

There is precisely zero logic in your argument.

The justification is the simple fact that it's true.

This referendum is characterised by a complete avertion to the truth. There's no truth in the EU rules; there's no truth in the political decision on CU; there's no truth that one day there might have to be a land border; there's no truth in iScotland wanting its cake and eating it, despite what the white paper lists. Etc, etc, etc.

Nationalists everywhere do the self-same thing - they use the fear and stupidity of their own nationals against those nationals to enhance their own political position.

[eFestivals]

On sophisticated electorate Buffy said

"On Scotland having a relatively sophisticated electorate. I said that due to the range of electoral mechanisms used for Council, Holyrood, Westminster & Euro elections"

Now,I'm not sure I totally agree with this. But Neil's response...

"mechanisms decided in horrible useless Westminster, and which cause 50% of Scots to ignore Scottish elections?"

is of no significance at all to Buff's argument. Completely irrelevant!

:lol:

[eFestivals]

With the natural resources Scotland have in renewable energy....

Which they of course do ... but which is the luck of nature and not the enterprise of the super-Scots.

And, when yes-ers say "Scotland gets nothing from the 'UK money' that's stolen from us", perhaps Scotland might like to look up on those hills, or off-shore, and wonder how those wonderful things that exploit Scotland's natural fart-power got there?

[eFestivals]

This does seem to get a bit lost during the indepedence debate.

From what i'm seeing,m what gets lost is the fact that negotiation applies just as much onto iScotland as it does rUK.

Faslane is a red line, but rUK will have to give iScotland CU. OK.

The tax / jam questions etc would all be put up for a decision by both yes and no voters.

your own glorious leader says that's definitely not going to happen, and that it would be anti-democratic if it did.

Do pay attention, eh?

I mentioned before that I think the SNP as I have known them will die ( to a point ) if we get a YES vote.

:lol:

They'll keep on telling you everything is the fault of the English, and Scotland will keep believing the lie no different to now.

[LJS]

Neil,

You need to come & visit us. I do not recognise the referendum campaign as you portray it.

Of, course if your observations are based on the UK media & some online maniacs. It is understandable of you are not getting a true picture.

[eFestivals]

Neil,

You need to come & visit us. I do not recognise the referendum campaign as you portray it.

and neither can you spot the actions of a nationalist party as the actions of a nationalist party - and yet are all these accusations of everything wrong about Scotland being the fault of those outside of Scotland - 'Westminster', 'tories', 'the English' - passing you by?

Of, course if your observations are based on the UK media & some online maniacs. It is understandable of you are not getting a true picture.

Some is based on solid facts - like the utterances of the St Alex - while, where others are from cybernats i've always tried to make it clear that's where and stated it might not be typical.

Typical or not, they're the loudest yes voices from Scotland, and no other yes-ers are bothering to correct them.

But perhaps I shouldn't get offended about the willingness of some of the people of Scotland to wilfully abuse the ignorance of others, while also saying that this is a new kind of better politics. Perhaps I should be happy for a nation to happily fuck itself*.

(*I don't mean by going independent, I mean by how they choose to treat each other).

[eFestivals]

There's lots of unknowns and variables about what an independent Scotland might be like, but the one thing that the independence campaign is proving beyond all doubt is this....

It's very definitely NOT going to bring Scotland any better type of politics. If it was, that would have started already. No bullshit would be needed to try and win, and a truly honest "we'll have to make the jam if there's ever going to be any jam" appraisal would be being given.

In the old type of politics the people don't know what's good for them and need to be lied to for their own good. Welcome to the new Scotland.

Edited April 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

and neither can you spot the actions of a nationalist party as the actions of a nationalist party - and yet are all these accusations of everything wrong about Scotland being the fault of those outside of Scotland - 'Westminster', 'tories', 'the English' - passing you by?

Some is based on solid facts - like the utterances of the St Alex - while, where others are from cybernats i've always tried to make it clear that's where and stated it might not be typical.

Typical or not, they're the loudest yes voices from Scotland, and no other yes-ers are bothering to correct them.

But perhaps I shouldn't get offended about the willingness of some of the people of Scotland to wilfully abuse the ignorance of others, while also saying that this is a new kind of better politics. Perhaps I should be happy for a nation to happily fuck itself*.

(*I don't mean by going independent, I mean by how they choose to treat each other).

Thanks again for correcting my ignorance about what is happening in the country I have lived in all my life.

How silly of me to think that might give me an insight into how the debate is being conducted "on the ground"

On the "it's all their fault" line which according to you forms the heart of the yes campaign. I frankly don't hear a great deal of that. There is some anti Westminster stuff, inevitably some anti Tory stuff but very very little anti English stuff. I'm sure you can find it plentifully on line - but there is much more to the debate than that & frankly unless you live here you will not see it.

On the front page of the Yes Scotland website there are 8 Stories- 5 are positive pro independence messages. Two stories are negative - one detailing the UK "pensions crisis" as reported today in every national newspaper & one about the confrontational nature of Westminster & particularly PMQ's turning off woman MP's.

The final story reports a request to the Better Together gang to clarify what new powers they are promising Scotland if we vote no.

It's very definitely NOT going to bring Scotland any better type of politics. If it was, that would have started already

Many would beg to differ:

Over half of Scots (54%) are satisfied with the way the Scottish Government is running the country compared to 39% who are dissatisfied, giving a net satisfaction rating of +15%. This is in stark contrast to the UK Government’s net satisfaction rating of -40% among voters across Britain.

the above figures are from Oct 2012: the reason they are not more recent is I simply took the first figures I came across rather than trawl through a whole load - they are from Ipsos MORI.

Here are 3 reasons why I believe Holyrood is doing a better job than Westminster

We have a fairer voting system - (you will no doubt claim credit for Westminster giving us this - which of course is technically true as only Westminster could legislate to create the Scottish Assembly - but the voting system was proposed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention)

We have seen real differences for the better in Scotland e.g. NHS defended, no academy schools, free personal care for the elderly, free prescriptions, free eye tests, no tuition fees. ( you may claim that this is all due to the generosity of Westminster giving more money to Scotland - whilst it is undeniably true that under the Barnett formula Westminster has allocated this higher share to Scotland since the 1970's - funnily enough, we only noticed the benefit after devolution)

There has been less sleaze & corruption associated with Holyrood than Westminster (maybe us Scots are just cleverer at not getting caught.)

I believe the above are some of the reasons why many of us believe we can do an even better job if we have full independence.

[LJS]

same story, perhaps a slightly different slant on each side of the border

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/10299937_10151982201002471_6468514163769575923_n.jpg

Edited April 22, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Breaking news: alistair darling to be sacked as head of better together & replaced by David moyes

[eFestivals]

same story, perhaps a slightly different slant on each side of the border

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/10299937_10151982201002471_6468514163769575923_n.jpg

and that's because....?

The situation regarding pensions is vastly different each side of the border. Even the SNP realise that's the case, and it's the precise reason they're keen to increase immigration to Scotland. The truth of the story is already scaring Salmond!

If you'd been paying attention to the facts you'd know that fact, and you wouldn't be posting about the Express and how it's trying to scare Scotland.

So perhaps you'd be wise to accept that you should also have worries? Or is reality just a nasty Westminster English tory conspiracy too?

[eFestivals]

Thanks again for correcting my ignorance about what is happening in the country I have lived in all my life.Thanks again for correcting my ignorance about what is happening in the country I have lived in all my life.

I'll ignore the ignorance bit, and just say this...

At no point have I said it's the only way the debate is happening. What I've said is how the debate is happening in the public space of newspaper comments, and that "sensible" Scots are choosing to not correct or reign-in the more nutty ones.

Those sensible Scots are quite happy for those nutters to keep on believing the lie, and to be going around stating those lies as indisputable truth.

It's either that, or there's no sensible Scots. Take your pick.

On the "it's all their fault" line which according to you forms the heart of the yes campaign. I frankly don't hear a great deal of that. There is some anti Westminster stuff, inevitably some anti Tory stuff but very very little anti English stuff.

Yep, true. The SNP avoid saying "English" as much as possible, and instead use code words for it.

The point is that it's the standard nationalist trick, of everything bad being the fault of those nasty foreigners while only the 'natives' (meant in the widest sense in the case of the SNP) can make good decisions.

Everything that the SNP don't do is the fault of Westminster. You know, like tackle the poverty they say is so important, while not using the tools they have available to tackle poverty (in fact, giving them up and then claiming they've been taken from them!!!).

Guess what will happen in iScoptland? Any of the white paper promises that can't be delivered will be the fault of the nasty English, and nothing to do with the white paper being pie in the sky.

On the front page of the Yes Scotland website there are 8 Stories- 5 are positive pro independence messages. Two stories are negative - one detailing the UK "pensions crisis" as reported today in every national newspaper & one about the confrontational nature of Westminster & particularly PMQ's turning off woman MP's.

And those "positive" stories are about the glorious utopian wonderland that will be an iScotland, just perhaps?

The final story reports a request to the Better Together gang to clarify what new powers they are promising Scotland if we vote no.

Scotland says "give us even more privileges than we already have, else we'll punch you on the nose".

Erm .... no do not have to offer you anything new. It's not them that said "we've got something new to offer".

But there seems to be a bit of denseness about that. Strange.

Many would beg to differ:

yep, the same ones who've yet to spot the standard nationalist thing.

We have a fairer voting system

and yet rejected a fairer voting system for Westminster.

We have seen real differences for the better in Scotland e.g. NHS defended, no academy schools, free personal care for the elderly, free prescriptions, free eye tests, no tuition fees.

These are great things, but come firstly from the fact that Scotland is not being ripped off as claimed but is in fact given a privileged posit6ion within the UK, as the only region which gets around the same spent on it as it generates.

And secondly, it comes from there being a changed political situation in Scotland, which has yet to settle down by the simple fact of it having run for a good while.

Come back in 3 decades and tell me how it's working out. iScotland will be doing the same left/right yo-yo thing as all western democracies do.

Things might have worked a bit better in iScotland over that time, but the gulf will be hugely less than it looks to be at this moment in time.

There has been less sleaze & corruption associated with Holyrood than Westminster (maybe us Scots are just cleverer at not getting caught.)

it takes a while to settle into a chair, that's all.

Meanwhile, Salmond tells Scotland lies about his meetings with Murdoch (only the 'official' meetings count, apparently ), and Souter runs off with cash that Salmond explicitly said he wouldn't get so that Salmond could get elected.

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

We have seen real differences for the better in Scotland e.g. NHS defended, no academy schools, free personal care for the elderly, free prescriptions, free eye tests, no tuition fees.

all brilliant things, and you are risking these with your greedy "we want even more!" view point.

And how are you going to pay for more left leaning policies? By slashing the tax rates for the rich? With policies like that you wont even be able to afford what you already have.

Or could it be that the massive tax cut for the rich will be funded by equivalent tax rises for the poorer members of the country. You say scots are all left wing so no one will mind an increase in tax right?

[eFestivals]

You say scots are all left wing so no one will mind an increase in tax right?

the SNP think they will.

The SNP were given the ability to raise taxes if they wanted to. They declined to do so - and by declining, the power to raise taxes has now lapsed, and the SNP now claim that the nasty English have stripped Scotland of political powers.

They prefer to tell Scotland that it's the nasty English that stop the wonderful SNP from helping Scotland's poor.

Shame it's not true. It's an even bigger shame that so many think it is.

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

the SNP think they will.

The SNP were given the ability to raise taxes if they wanted to. They declined to do so - and by declining, the power to raise taxes has now lapsed, and the SNP now claim that the nasty English have stripped Scotland of political powers.

They prefer to tell Scotland that it's the nasty English that stop the wonderful SNP from helping Scotland's poor.

Shame it's not true. It's an even bigger shame that so many think it is.

The powers to raise taxes has never been used but as far as I am aware they have not lapsed. There are changes which will come into effect in 2016.

Sadly , the Scottish electorate are no different to the rest of the UK in that if you promise to raise tax, you are guaranteed to lose. The Snp tried it once. They lost.

The Thatcher era Tories started this & invented "stealth" taxes where you reduce income tax but increase the total tax take by inventing new taxes & increasing other indirect taxes. As with so many Tory tricks New Labour happily embraced this as their own.

For the record, I have no opposition in principle to paying more tax if it is in pursuit of a fairer society.

[eFestivals]

Sadly , the Scottish electorate are no different to the rest of the UK in that if you promise to raise tax, you are guaranteed to lose. The Snp tried it once. They lost.

yep - so that's yet another things which gets to prove that Scotland is not really politically different at the end of the day. There's merely a false perception going around that it is.

Who created that perception, and why?

For the record, I have no opposition in principle to paying more tax if it is in pursuit of a fairer society.

I'm with you on that one.

But, the relevant bit here is Scotland does object (as your words above admit), and yet its telling itself via the yes campaign that it doesn't ... and no one is putting anyone straight about these things.

And so Scotland might vote to be independent on the basis of some patent bollocks about how it'll be left-leaning, the issues around the poor will be addressed, etc, etc, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to win the vote on truth and not lies? A truthful win would be glorious (I'd fully approve!), a lying win will be a disaster - or at least, it will make the circumstances for an independent Scotland far worse than they need to be. I'm outside of it all, but it worries me for Scotland's sake.

What happens when these people wise up to the truth of things?

The SNP don't care, they'll have scooped-up their prize already, and the people of Scotland can get ta fuck as far as they'll care.

[russycarps]

any tax rises for the little people will first and foremost make up the shortfall created by the massive tax cut for the rich.

but of course the tax rises will be sold to the gullible scots as being necessary in the pursuit of a fairer society.

Edited April 23, 2014 by russycarps

[russycarps]

just reading about gordon browns perfectly sensible speech about pensions. Of course he's just "scaremongering"

[eFestivals]

just reading about gordon browns perfectly sensible speech about pensions. Of course he's just "scaremongering"

of course it is. There's nothing good about the union (apart from it's currency, it's borders, it's EU membership, it's academic research funding, it's driving licences, and all the other things which the SNP list that i've forgotten).

And of course the greater ability of a big economy to ride thru the peaks and troughs that all economies have. If fracking turns out to be as big as some are saying (tho i personally doubt that'll be the case, but who knows really?), then iScotland is in BIG shit before the end of this decade.

[russycarps]

of course it is. There's nothing good about the union (apart from it's currency, it's borders, it's EU membership, it's academic research funding, it's driving licences, and all the other things which the SNP list that i've forgotten).

And of course the greater ability of a big economy to ride thru the peaks and troughs that all economies have. If fracking turns out to be as big as some are saying (tho i personally doubt that'll be the case, but who knows really?), then iScotland is in BIG shit before the end of this decade.

It's no wonder the rest of the world is utterly baffled by this push for independence.

the people I work with cant comprehend it.

[eFestivals]

the people I work with cant comprehend it.

It's merely another version of the UKIP phenomenon, and surely they get that?

People are pissed off with the traditional parties, so vote for the next biggest alternative as their method of protest, combined with the normal "it's all those foreigners fault" bollocks that nationalist parties always do.