The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

here you go LJS - the difference between a negotiation, and a reasonable negotiation.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/unreasonable-negotiation.html

Just because Scotland wants more doesn't get to mean that Scotland is right to want more.

Edited February 15, 2016 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Havent looked at this thread for a while, but I see ljs is still doing that thing where he posts silly youtube songs whenever he is confronted by uncomfortable facts he has no answer to  

It's quite comforting how some things never change.

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, russycarps said:

avent looked at this thread for a while, but I see ljs is still doing that thing where he posts silly youtube songs whenever he is confronted by uncomfortable facts he has no answer to  

It's quite comforting how some things never change.

 

Which would be fine if there were actually any facts an any of Neil's posts.

 

But then, as you say, some things never change.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Which would be fine if there were actually any facts an any of Neil's posts.

Sturgeon hasn't been trying to get benefit from rUK when things are bad in Scotland but not give benefit to rUK if things are good in Scotland?

This is a fact, and an undisputed one.

Sturgeon even wrote a letter saying she's not prepared for Scotland carrying the 'risk' of Scotland not growing as fast as rUK because Smith made no recommendation* of who should carry that 'risk'.

(* which of course means, on a fair reading of Smith, that the risk should be shared and not all carried by just UK)

What you're forgetting here is who the UK govt represent - everyone, including Scotland.

Just because you and the SNP want to see this as Scotland vs England doesn't get to mean that it is. So what we've got is Scotland trying to get the best deal for Scotland, and the UK govt trying to get a deal that is fair to everyone in the UK (including those in Scotland).

The me-me-me of self interest (better known as toryism, btw!) vs a fair deal for all.

Swinney has now submitted a revised offer - but we don't know what it is, because the govt of the people in Scotland don't want the people in Scotland to know what the govt is doing.

 

Quote

But then, as you say, some things never change.

How big is Scotland's deficit, LJS? How much does England send to Scotland each year on average for all of the last 20+ years?

Yep, some things never change, as you won't admit to the facts.

Edited February 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

 

[eFestivals]

yep, you'd rather fart than face the facts.

 

[LJS]

I see no facts..

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

I see no facts..

what about Now? Do you see the fact I mentioned above?

Or can't you read?

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

what about Now? Do you see the fact I mentioned above?

Or can't you read?

 

I read the letter on your pal's blog. I disagree with your interpretation of it.

[Comfy Bean]

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Just because you and the SNP want to see this as Scotland vs England doesn't get to mean that it is. 

 

How much does England send to Scotland each year on average for all of the last 20+ years?

 

Aye......both the above statements appeared in the same post.......

Since day one YOU have wanted to turn this into a hate fuelled " battle " between Scotland and our friends South of the border. Of course we have told you many many times on here that this is not the case but you can`t change what`s inside you I suppose.

To see oursels as ithers see us etc

[Comfy Bean]

On 15/02/2016 at 1:12 PM, russycarps said:

Havent looked at this thread for a while, but I see ljs is still doing that thing where he posts silly youtube songs whenever he is confronted by uncomfortable facts he has no answer to  

It's quite comforting how some things never change.

 

In fairness not that much has or will change on the Indy side any time soon Russ. We`ve got some vital negotiations going on though on Scotland`s future funding.

Of course some on here would rather have avoided these negotiations but we are where we are . One development is that some would like our Parliament closed down and all powers returned to Dave and the gang in London. I assume ( perhaps wrongly although I`m following logic ) that the same folk would wish the Welsh and Irish assembleys shut down too.

Where do you stand on this development ?

As our London and oil price guy would be interested in your thoughts. In my view London is a marvellous city but I`d like to see much of what happens there shared round the rest of our Islands. Smart as I`m sure they are in London, some things would surely benefit from local knowledge plus it would leave more room for the Londoners if we shared stuff round......in my opinion.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Aye......both the above statements appeared in the same post.......

Since day one YOU have wanted to turn this into a hate fuelled " battle " between Scotland and our friends South of the border. Of course we have told you many many times on here that this is not the case but you can`t change what`s inside you I suppose.

To see oursels as ithers see us etc

Not at all.

I've pointed out that the money claims didn't add up, and you denied them.

I've said if you want to impoverish yourself I'm happy for you to chose to do that, but don't be a mug by believing Alex.

And the argument goes on because you're still believing Alex today, rather than facing up to the massive challenge indy would be - with huge cuts and huge tax rises, as the unavoidable starting point for your new nation.

If Scotland is just a moment away from a great leap forwards in 5 or 10 years, why is Sturgeon even bothering with negotiating with Westminster? It';s almost like she knows something she's not telling you.

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

In my view London is a marvellous city but I`d like to see much of what happens there shared round the rest of our Islands

Marvellous words there from one of the "oor oil" brigade who believed the SNP scam of a gloriously rich iScotland.

It's a good job London hasn't done the snipper thing, given that's about the only part of the UK that's running a surplus.

Just think how shit the country would be if everyone did the snipper thing.

And now there might be cogs whirring in comfy's brain, having realised why I'm saying self-funding is a truly shit idea.... unless you're greedy old London, that's not being greedy at all.

But yes, I agree that 'unionist' idea of polling and sharing could be carried out better than they are being. Unfortunately for you that means Scotland is last on the list for extra, and first on the list for less.

But hey, just think how smug Scotland will be able to feel about helping out those in greater need.

[Comfy Bean]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If Scotland is just a moment away from a great leap forwards in 5 or 10 years, why is Sturgeon even bothering with negotiating with Westminster? It';s almost like she knows something she's not telling you.

I`m not sure that first bit even makes sense but we are better together for the forseable. It`s what we voted for. The Scottish Govt is representing the Scottish people. Whats hard to understand about this. As you know I would rather we were not even having these negotiations but surely you recognise the importance of this going forward. It`s not all SNP bad you know. They are actually negotiating due to the choices of people who voted down what they believe in. They are representing  all of Scotland as best they can. You normally claim that they will do anything to drive the wedge and achieve their goal. 

If this were true then NS could have accepted the Tories first offer but she`s not as spiteful as some 

I noticed you left the bit about Scotland versus England out of my post you quoted.

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Marvellous words there from one of the "oor oil" brigade who believed the SNP scam of a gloriously rich iScotland.

 

Oh Neil 

Lost count of the number of times I`ve asked this but would you oblige me with 1 ( one ) of my posts where I claim it`s " oor oil " or claim that iScotland will be " gloriously rich". Not sure if you have read any of them  but I`ve made plenty of posts on this subject so when you`ve stopped laughing you could maybe quote me saying anything vaguely similar to what your claiming here.

 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It`s what we voted for. The Scottish Govt is representing the Scottish people. Whats hard to understand about this.

Nowt.

What's wrong is being out for itself, and not being for the UK as a whole.

It's not Holyrood vs Westminster. Westminster is Scotland's govt too.

 

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As you know I would rather we were not even having these negotiations but surely you recognise the importance of this going forward. It`s not all SNP bad you know. They are actually negotiating due to the choices of people who voted down what they believe in. They are representing  all of Scotland as best they can. You normally claim that they will do anything to drive the wedge and achieve their goal. 

If the deal is bad for rUK but good for Scotland - what the SNP are trying for currently (unless the latest Swinney proposal has changed it) - then what does that? Drive the wedge.

And this is a win-win for the SNP too. Either they get to cheer having screwed over the rest of the UK, or they can refuse the best offer and blame everything on that nasty Westminster.

(most people seem to think they'll go for the 2nd but then quietly accept the current offer sometime after the Holyrood elections, but we'll have to see how it pans out).

 

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If this were true then NS could have accepted the Tories first offer but she`s not as spiteful as some 

That might drive the wedge a little deeper, but it would also be a hammer blow to the lauding of the SNP, too.

So no, NS isn't that stupid. There's no gain for her in that, and it was daft of you to think there might be.

 

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I noticed you left the bit about Scotland versus England out of my post you quoted.

It's not worthy of comment.

Did I point out a painful truth, that's England - actually, that there hated London - which sends Scotland its money to keep you in the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed?

If you want to see that as hateful, that's all your own issue.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Oh Neil 

Lost count of the number of times I`ve asked this but would you oblige me with 1 ( one ) of my posts where I claim it`s " oor oil " or claim that iScotland will be " gloriously rich". Not sure if you have read any of them  but I`ve made plenty of posts on this subject so when you`ve stopped laughing you could maybe quote me saying anything vaguely similar to what your claiming here.

 

tell you what then...

As the white paper promised those false riches and you say you never believed it ....

... why don't you say "the white paper was a pack of lies and Salmond is a liar who tried to ruin Scotland", and then it's clear your not attracted by the false promises?

[Comfy Bean]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

It's not worthy of comment.

 On the Scotland England thing...it was you who highlighted / mentioned it, twice in the one post. Nice goal post shifting though 

Did I point out a painful truth, that's England - actually, that there hated London - which sends Scotland its money to keep you in the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed?

Go on.....for old time sake... say that line about fed up funding our extravagant lifestyle 

You are Edwina, where do I claim my fiver ? 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Oh Neil 

Lost count of the number of times I`ve asked this but would you oblige me with 1 ( one ) of my posts where I claim it`s " oor oil " or claim that iScotland will be " gloriously rich". Not sure if you have read any of them  but I`ve made plenty of posts on this subject so when you`ve stopped laughing you could maybe quote me saying anything vaguely similar to what your claiming here.

 

Where`s the quote then. I`ve made plenty so something I said must have led you to the conclusion you posted earlier. To be fair then, anything even remotely similar to what you claimed will do.

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

tell you what then...

As the white paper promised those false riches and you say you never believed it ....

... why don't you say "the white paper was a pack of lies and Salmond is a liar who tried to ruin Scotland", and then it's clear your not attracted by the false promises?

 You still think we were voting on the SNP White Pater......how many times 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Go on.....for old time sake... say that line about fed up funding our extravagant lifestyle

that's the thing ... it's only you that ever does.

It's not a big deal down here, but the sort of bollocks you've just spouted is the changing things slowly..

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 You still think we were voting on the SNP White Pater......how many times 

then why can't you say it was a pack of lies?

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's the thing ... it's only you that ever does.

It's not a big deal down here, but the sort of bollocks you've just spouted is the changing things slowly..

I don`t actually think you are Edwina Currie. As you know, I`ve linked to her quote before, she actually said that.

I mentioned that it was NOT about Scotland versus England  but I appreciate you see it like that. It`s quite clear it is a big deal to some in England. 

I remain convinced that a Labour or SNP Govt would make Scotland a fairer place eventually. The destruction of our Empire / Kingdom could also lead to long term benefits for all the Countries involved. Hopefully it will 

This whole Unionist thing is quite outdated in my opinion.

[Comfy Bean]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

then why can't you say it was a pack of lies?

 

I don`t think it was a " pack of lies ". Just for the record, you know that`s not what this is about.....I`m sure you know this but would be good to clear that up.

I have acknowledged that plenty on both sides, including dave and eck were miles out with their hopes / dreams / guesses. I haven`t called any of the 2 of them liars but they were both wrong for sure.

This is not about the SNP White Paper. Much as it suits your argument to pretend that it is.

I think Scotland could have made decisions for itself. You agree with this. I also think that Labour would be better placed to challenge the SNP up here and hold them to account with Indy. You think Labour ( under Corbyn ) are dead. Do you agree that with Indy they could be a force again in Scotland ?

Genuine question that last bit. If you prefer we can go round and round the white paper argument again though 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It`s quite clear it is a big deal to some in England. 

and similarly Scotland has it's England haters.

In general I stay away from using that, and today's use of 'England' was to say it WASN'T about that, but also because using 'UK' wasn't appropriate in that sentence because UK includes Scotland, and 'rUK' wasn't appropriate in that sentence because Scotland can't negotiate with it ... so I strayed into a loose non-accusatory reference to the existence of those England hating types. Shoot me.