The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

"The powers devolved to Holyrood by Smith Commission will not allow Scotland to make any meaningful reform, according to an independent think-tank.

Reform Scotland said the new income tax powers due to be transferred to Holyrood from next year under the Scotland Bill were not sufficient to allow for coherent tax reform."

http://news.stv.tv/politics/1345472-think-tank-concludes-new-tax-powers-for-holyrood-are-useless/

 

Just saying...

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, LJS said:

Rubbish. I said very clearly I want Scotland to do things differently but not by taxing the poor.

I'll ask you again against your fallacy: how does socialist redistribution via the tax system work?

And I'll say again: poverty is not about the level of wages that might be taxed.

 

22 hours ago, LJS said:

Still do, thanks. 

Nope. If you did you wouldn't fear redistribution via the tax system.

 

22 hours ago, LJS said:

Which is why I am in favour of it. As I have tirelessly repeated if Labour can explain how their magic £100 will work, I might be in favour. They have made no attempt to do so.

yes they have.

The problem with their policy isn't them or their policy, it's your attitude towards their policy. You reject them because they're not the SNP.

You say you don't like how timid the SNP are, only to show exactly the same timidity yourself. You're a perfect match.

 

22 hours ago, LJS said:

Pish.

They have not addressed the questions that have been asked about how it will work.

I cannot find Labour committing to any targetted help. 

The very thing you claim they've not addressed questions about is (part of) the targeted help you say they've not committed to.

FFS.

 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

"The powers devolved to Holyrood by Smith Commission will not allow Scotland to make any meaningful reform, according to an independent think-tank.

Reform Scotland said the new income tax powers due to be transferred to Holyrood from next year under the Scotland Bill were not sufficient to allow for coherent tax reform."

http://news.stv.tv/politics/1345472-think-tank-concludes-new-tax-powers-for-holyrood-are-useless/

 

Just saying...

Are you getting your excuses in nearly for why the SNP won't be committing to raising the highest tax rate, after spending 2+ years saying how they would?

I think you might be.

[LJS]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Are you getting your excuses in nearly for why the SNP won't be committing to raising the highest tax rate, after spending 2+ years saying how they would?

I think you might be.

No.

 

Just sharing an article I found. I have little alternative but to vote SNP as long as I continue to believe in independence as any non SNP vote will be taken as a pro union vote by idiots like you.

I can't see then getting both of my votes though.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

No.

 

Just sharing an article I found. I have little alternative but to vote SNP as long as I continue to believe in independence as any non SNP vote will be taken as a pro union vote by idiots like you.

I can't see then getting both of my votes though.

So there you have it.

Helping the poor is subservient to firstly getting indy. If the you don't get indy, you'll shit on the poor.

And given that helping the poor come secondary, it's no surprise that you've bought into an idea that's completely unable to actually help the poor - because the £8Bn a year less you're happy for Scotland to have will be at the expense of the poor.

That high moral ground you believe yourself to be sitting on is in fact a swamp.

I'm glad you've cleared that one up, even tho I'm not glad for Scotland's poor.

(it's only taken two years of you denying it before you've been able to say what's been clear all along).

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So there you have it.

Helping the poor is subservient to firstly getting indy. If the you don't get indy, you'll shit on the poor.

And given that helping the poor come secondary, it's no surprise that you've bought into an idea that's completely unable to actually help the poor - because the £8Bn a year less you're happy for Scotland to have will be at the expense of the poor.

That high moral ground you believe yourself to be sitting on is in fact a swamp.

I'm glad you've cleared that one up, even tho I'm not glad for Scotland's poor.

(it's only taken two years of you denying it before you've been able to say what's been clear all along).

You ever thought of writing a novel?

Fiction comes naturally to you.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

You ever thought of writing a novel?

Fiction comes naturally to you.

You've just admitted that indy is more important to you than helping the poor. What did you miss about your own words?

I always knew that. Now you've realised it too.

That £8Bn funding gap is your bitch, and the poor are who you're happy to whip.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You've just admitted that indy is more important to you than helping the poor. What did you miss about your own words?

 

Oh, no I haven't. You made that up like you always make up my mind for me. 

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, LJS said:

I have little alternative but to vote SNP as long as I continue to believe in independence

 

35 minutes ago, LJS said:

Oh, no I haven't. You made that up like you always make up my mind for me. 

What don't you understand about your own words?

There's alternatives, and alternatives that will do better for the poorest. You want indy in front of them.

And if/when you have indy, iScotland will have no choice but to shit on its poor, unless it's going to shut down the schools or SNHS or something ... cos the only certainty with indy is that Scotland is £8Bn poorer.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

What don't you understand about your own words?

There's alternatives, and alternatives that will do better for the poorest. You want indy in front of them.

And if/when you have indy, iScotland will have no choice but to shit on its poor, unless it's going to shut down the schools or SNHS or something ... cos the only certainty with indy is that Scotland is £8Bn poorer.

I have 2 votes. The SNP will win in my constituency whatever I vote. So when I use my first vote for SNP it will have no real effect other than a tiny boost to their overall %.

My second vote is likely to go to the greens or possibly Labour. That vote has at least a slight chance of actually counting. 

You constantly ignore my objections to Labour proposals and counter them with nothing other than bland unproven assertions. Bizarrely in your world, being opposed to one party's flawed & "half-baked" proposals means I am in favour of shafting the poor. 

Another sweeping pathetic over-simplistic generalisation from Neil's broad brush.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

The SNP will win in my constituency whatever I vote.

and on the same basis I guess I should have always voted tory where I brought up, as they always win.

 

1 hour ago, LJS said:

You constantly ignore my objections to Labour proposals

You started off not knowing what Labour's proposals were in their effect, then you falsely stated they hadn't said how their rebate would work.

Your decision to remain ignorant of those things is your choice, but don't falsely blame Labour for your own ignorance.

 

1 hour ago, LJS said:

and counter them with nothing other than bland unproven assertions. Bizarrely in your world, being opposed to one party's flawed & "half-baked" proposals means I am in favour of shafting the poor. 

Another sweeping pathetic over-simplistic generalisation from Neil's broad brush.

 

You've said that helping the poor is secondary to indy. You're entitled to think that, but be honest to yourself about it.

Meanwhile ever-so-much of your starting position has been turned on its head, much as i guessed it would have to to keep the dream in light of the facts.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

and on the same basis I guess I should have always voted tory where I brought up, as they always win.

I'm not voting SNP because they will win. I'm voting SNP because I believe Scotland should be an independent country. I am also assuming they will come up with some sort of progressive proposal in income tax to go along with their (mildly) progresssive tax reforms. My vote will also be based on their record, which whilst not perfect is more than a match for previous Labour/lib dem administrations.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

You started off not knowing what Labour's proposals were in their effect,

Wrong. I didn't understand your interpretation of "no worse off" I understood precisely what Labour's proposals were. I would be obliged if you would stop lying about this.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

then you falsely stated they hadn't said how their rebate would work.

If my statements are false, why have you been unable to supply me with evidence of them explaining how it would work?

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Your decision to remain ignorant of those things is your choice, but don't falsely blame Labour for your own ignorance.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier response.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

You've said that helping the poor is secondary to indy.

Nope

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

You're entitled to think that, but be honest to yourself about it.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Meanwhile ever-so-much of your starting position has been turned on its head, much as i guessed it would have to to keep the dream in light of the facts.

I have changed nothing in my position.

[eFestivals]

comfy's been slagging me off recently because I've pointed out that devolution doesn't work in a practical sense.

I wonder if he's going to be slagging off the SNP now, who are currently pointing out the same thing over Sunday trading?

 

[LJS]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

comfy's been slagging me off recently because I've pointed out that devolution doesn't work in a practical sense.

I wonder if he's going to be slagging off the SNP now, who are currently pointing out the same thing over Sunday trading?

 

Can't speak for comfy, but whilst I don't think the SNP should be poking their noses into English business, I certainly don't recognise your predictably skewed interpretation of their position.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, LJS said:

Can't speak for comfy, but whilst I don't think the SNP should be poking their noses into English business, I certainly don't recognise your predictably skewed interpretation of their position.

1. they're poking their nose into English business, when if there was devolution in the form they claim to prefer they wouldn't be able to.

2. they're poking their nose into English business, because they fear that what England might do might impact into Scotland.

It clearly shows that devolution doesn't work in the way Scotland would like things to work, free of impact from England.

It also shows that much the same would happen if Scotland were indy too. It's just not possible for iScotland to create the isolation it would need for what happens in England to not effect it.

I'm quite happy for the SNP to vote to block this proposed Sunday trading change because I don't agree with that change, but that doesn't stop everything about what the SNP are doing from being hypocritical, nor from it flagging up the failings of separation at any level.

Edited March 9, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

1. they're poking their nose into English business, when if there was devolution in the form they claim to prefer they wouldn't be able to.

2. they're poking their nose into English business, because they fear that what England might do might impact into Scotland.

It clearly shows that devolution doesn't work in the way Scotland would like things to work, free of impact from England.

It also shows that much the same would happen if Scotland were indy too. It's just not possible for iScotland to create the isolation it would need for what happens in England to not effect it.

I'm quite happy for the SNP to vote to block this proposed Sunday trading change because I don't agree with that change, but that doesn't stop everything about what the SNP are doing from being hypocritical, nor from it flagging up the failings of separation at any level.

As usual your argument is based on a false assumption. As usual you hope no one will notice. As usual you are disappointed. No one has suggested that being next door to England will suddenly become irrelevant in the event of Indy. 

I still think the SNP would be better keeping their noses out of your business.

 

Anyway happy GERSday Neil, do have fun

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, LJS said:

As usual your argument is based on a false assumption. As usual you hope no one will notice. As usual you are disappointed. No one has suggested that being next door to England will suddenly become irrelevant in the event of Indy. 

I still think the SNP would be better keeping their noses out of your business.

What "false assumption"?

Surely it's simply a demonstration that devolution doesn't work in the way those who like it want it would like it to?

If devolution did work as wanted to, there'd be no need for Scotland to interfere.

Unless it's not about that at all, and is instead the SNP just playing silly buggers because they can and lying about why they're doing what they're doing.

As far as i can see, it can only be one or the other. If you think it's different to failed devolution or the SNP being liars, perhaps you'd like to wise me up?

 

Quote

Anyway happy GERSday Neil, do have fun

ohhh, is it? What fun.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by eFestivals

[krisskross]

Lets get this started! 

https://www.politicshome.com/economy-and-work/articles/story/oil-price-slump-leaves-scotland-%C2%A315-billion-black-hole

[russycarps]

And to think the raving nationalists mocked us when we quoted a conservative figure of £13bn. And now this! 

£15bn!

FIFTEEN BILLION POUNDS!

Imagine the catastrophe if the raving nationalists insanity had won the day. Utterly terrifying to think about.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, krisskross said:

Lets get this started! 

https://www.politicshome.com/economy-and-work/articles/story/oil-price-slump-leaves-scotland-%C2%A315-billion-black-hole

great photo with that article.

So, an extra £2Bn of deficit (with geographic oil included), and and extra 1.4% of Scottish deficit compared to last year (while whole-UK has fallen by 0.8%)

Latest GERS:-
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/03/3692

The previous one for comparison:-
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/1422

Two weeks from Independence Day. I wonder if it's the whole of the education budget indy Scotland will be cutting, or just half of the SNHS instead.

[eFestivals]

And I'm loving the w*nkers over sense take on things ... apparently, because they're only best guesses (best guesses to an SNP determined methodology, not a Westminster one), they don't count.

And everything is Westminster's fault for running up a £1.5Tn deficit - where everything of that deficit is Westminster's fault and nothing to do with Scotland accounting for 25% of that deficit despite being just 8.4% of the population.

Are people really believing that? If so, the claims of Scottish education being the best in the world are false.

[krisskross]

The tax from north sea oil has dropped incredibly. 

	2010-11	2011-12	2012-13	2013-14	2014-15
Licence fees	69	67	69	71	72
North Sea corporation tax	6,864	8,840	4,393	3,556	2,073
Petroleum revenue tax	1,458	2,032	1,737	1,118	77
Emissions trading scheme revenues	11	18	16	19	32
Total	8,402	10,957	6,215	4,764	2,254

 

and Nicola S. wants more tax breaks for corporations?!?

[eFestivals]

Just now, krisskross said:

The tax from north sea oil has dropped incredibly. 

	2010-11	2011-12	2012-13	2013-14	2014-15
Licence fees	69	67	69	71	72
North Sea corporation tax	6,864	8,840	4,393	3,556	2,073
Petroleum revenue tax	1,458	2,032	1,737	1,118	77
Emissions trading scheme revenues	11	18	16	19	32
Total	8,402	10,957	6,215	4,764	2,254

 

and Nicola S. wants more tax breaks for corporations?!?

not just those, both her and Swinney have said they want urgent tax cuts to the oil extraction taxes in Gidiot's forthcoming budget.

Those quoted oil revenues also don't include tax refunds against previous tax paid.

And the GERS just published also includes many months of extraction before the price crashed and Osborne cut the tax rate .... so the next one will be even lower - reputed to be only around £100M for 2015-16 (before rebates are deducted, making it negative).

Greece at it's worse crisis point has nothing on Scotland, which has the biggest deficit in Europe.

[LJS]

Only £2bn more? 

 

You guys must be gutted.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Only £2bn more? 

 

You guys must be gutted.

it's not us that wanted to risk our futures on it ... we dop't much care.

It's you that would now be facing the nightmare of indy. What's your choice for the cuts, closing all the schools and uni's, or shutting half the hospitals?