The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

I know you're really struggling with the complexity of all this, Barry.

Shwade it Crystal clear that while she would deal with the deficit (as the Tories have done -with mixed success) she would use different methods.

Do keep up!

 

but you've spent the last two years saying that cutting to address he deficit doesn't work, and those that try are doomed to fail.

A sudden change of tune from you now ... because Sturgeon has led you by the nose and told you the ne3w thing to say. More amusing still is the anti-austerity party advocating austerity and you're fully behind it.

180 degrees.

The full turn.

And not only on this one thing either. Everything you've said about indy is being turned around and you're turning with it.

[kaosmark2]

She's finally admitted some cuts have to be made, and it's being lapped up as if this is an alternative to what Labour were saying 7 years ago.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

I am nowhere near that.

You're now a happy advocate of austerity because that's now the SNP party line.

Where has protecting the poor from cuts gone, LJS?

Instead of protecting the poor from cuts, you're supporting the line that ensures the biggest cuts of all - far bigger than just tory cuts.

You're currently saying you wouldn't allow those cuts to hit the poor, but that's just your emu act. The task is so very big that its inescapable.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Well it was pretty tame stuff really & it acknowledged what I have long said that the SNP will have to address the shortcomings in the Yes campaign & come up with a convincing & credible case. You think that is impossible. If you are correct then unless somethgin truly extraordinary, we won't get our indy. 

The first admission that indy is no longer inevitable. Another turn.

Personally, I'm not convinced. Scotland has already proven that plenty are happy to do the opposite of the truth spoken by Englishmen. Punching yourself in the face seems in fashion in Scotland.

It's impossible for the Scottish economy to grow and cover the shortfall. There's a much greater chance of the UK economy sliding and leaving Scotland standing on a peak ... even tho right now the opposite is true.

The difficulty Scotland faces is that Barnett supplement, that ensures Scotland cannot be viable at current spends. Either the SNP start campaigning to give it up or the financial case remains as massive cuts on I-Day. The only certainty is massive cuts before or after.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Well, nothing is as simple as you present it Neil...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35804665

Of course, there is no guarantee that that will happen - but if it does, then that will inevitably boost employment which will benefit ordinalry people as well as the Scottish economy in general. 

The only reason for the predicted growth is because its believed that Scotland will steal air passengers from England.

Sat here near the south west's biggest airport with the major Welsh airport just 25 miles away, we're getting similar noises. Wales wants to nick Bristol's business via a cut in passenger tax, and Bristol is demanding a level playing field.

Remember how the tories were always against airport tax? Remember how you scream when the tories make cuts for the middle classes (but you're not screaming when the tartan tories do the same)?

Well, you've just been had.

Before Scotland gets to cut its air passenger taxes Wales will get the same right and make the same commitment to cuts, and then England will be given the right to match it ... and all anyone gets is more tax cuts for the middle classes, but without complaint this time as you proclaim the tory line as right and proper.

I'm very happy to put money in it playing out exactly as I've said there.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

I'm sure of nothing - although the council tax tinkering is broadly " taxing the rich"  

Yep, it's a great thing.

Tho sadly, any party that meant it would have done it a decade ago, rather than ensured lower taxes for the rich for that decade.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

On broader GERS related issues - I have no time to respond to every individual point or question you have raised so I'll make some general observations  - I'm sure you'll let me know if I've missed anything.

You talk about the "one bad year" thing & go on to talk of a " a constant 20+ year deficit " which is misleading and irrelevant as the same applies to the UK and in a number of these year's Scotland's deficit has been smaller than the UK's. 

Three years in 20 years it's been better in Scotland.

Those years have all had exceptional oil revenues, which are now impossible due to the decline in extraction (before even touching on the current low oil price, not expected to reach the previous heights for at least the next decade).

And of course some of that 'doing better than UK' is also caused by the UK's own worst years in decades (rather than Scotland doing well), caused by a one-off crisis unlikely to be repeated.

It's hardly a cause for celebration, that Scotland managed to better the UK at it's worst. That just underlines that what you wish to claim as good is actually always bad.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

GERS is useful as it gives a useful indication of how things are now  - although it uses a crude method for attributing UK wide expenditure so it is at best a very rough snapshot. If you use it to predict how an independent Scotland would perform, you completely ignore the inevitable fact that a Scottish Government would make different choices. It also ignores the fact that much of Scotland's fiscal position will depend on the outcome of pre-indy negotiations.

Those pre-indy negotiations and those spending choices cannot add the needed 16% to Scottish govt revenues.

Adding that 16% would require a massive expansion of the Scottish economy, with growth rates bigger than China required.

Do you really believe the guff you've posted there? Are you really that much of an economic moron? Or can you just not give up the party line to think for yourself?

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

I made no secret during the Indy campaign that I did not accept the more optimistic financial projections of the SNP and indeed iScotland might face some fairly tough times in the early years of Indy.

the first years would be those massive cuts and a shrinking Scottish economy as a result of less money (16% less money) within the Scottish economy. Eventually it will flatten out, and growth will start again.

And then Scotland will forever live as the poor northern cousin on this island, with lower standards of living than the UK - in much the same way as has been the case in Ireland since indy.

Salmond was right when he made a nod towards Ireland as that being something like the future Scotland. His error was thinking it would be like boom-Ireland rather than average-Ireland.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Nothing that has been said since changes my conviction that , in the long term independence offers the best hope of a "better" future. It won't necessarily be easy or inevitable, and, as you often correctly point out - Scotland would not free itself of the influence of our larger neighbour and, of course, independence is a relative term in our modern interconnected world. 

If 'better' is poorer, you're right.

If Scotland wants that poorer, it's welcome to it.

What Scotland was offered 18 months ago was a big fat lie, as people like me said it was to be called liars by people like you.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This.

The line in bold is spot on but although obvious, it is conveniently ignored by the unionists. No wonder I suppose.

One of the Scottish choices would be to shrink it's economy by 16%. Sturgeon admitted this on Sunday.

Conveniently ignored by snippers, who prefer to keep spreading lies that different choices can cover this.

You're the guy who called people wrong who pointed out what Sturgeon has now (finally) admitted. Now you call Sturgeon a liar but pretend its someone else who is lying ... when the real liar about this is you, just you.

Can I, in all sincerity, suggest you take a course of economic study? You'd be much wiser for it.

 

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Scotland would not elect a Tory Govt in my lifetime. We would be governed by a new version of the SNP held to account by a Labour party freed up from chasing Tory votes in England or Labour being held to account by the SNP.

When the shit hits the fan in iScotland and you realise where you've taken yourselves by going along with lies, the tories will reign long in iScotland.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I know you're really struggling with the complexity of all this, Barry.

Shwade it Crystal clear that while she would deal with the deficit (as the Tories have done -with mixed success) she would use different methods.

Do keep up!

 

yep, she'd have to use different methods, cos the cuts would have to be so much deeper than Osborne's cuts.

Think different, like Greece or austerity Ireland.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

but you've spent the last two years saying that cutting to address he deficit doesn't work, and those that try are doomed to fail.

A sudden change of tune from you now ... because Sturgeon has led you by the nose and told you the ne3w thing to say. More amusing still is the anti-austerity party advocating austerity and you're fully behind it.

180 degrees.

The full turn.

And not only on this one thing either. Everything you've said about indy is being turned around and you're turning with it.

Incorrect. I have argued against the Tories' cuts. I have consistently stated that cuts can & should be made where this can be done - indeed a government is failing in its duty if it does not constantly look for ways to cut expenditure.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

Incorrect. I have argued against the Tories' cuts. I have consistently stated that cuts can & should be made where this can be done

the SNP won't be making 16% cuts across all spending "where this can be done".

You started off saying that indy was the only way to protect the poor from cuts. You're now advocating the biggest cuts ever onto the poor, because there is no other possible outcome.

 

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

- indeed a government is failing in its duty if it does not constantly look for ways to cut expenditure.

That's a very sensible comment in general terms.

But we're not talking about general terms, we're talking about cuts ENFORCED by necessity.

Not just 'cuts' but cuts of at least three times the size of any tory cutting.

That YOU advocate as the best thing for Scotland.

If the you of 2 years ago could meet yourself now it would be so very funny.

You started off saying that indy was the only way to protect the poor from cuts. You're now advocating the biggest cuts ever onto the poor, because there is no other possible outcome.

[eFestivals]

Anyway, now that LJS is fully on board with Westminster not sending Scotland so much money because that's Westminster deciding to make Scotland look foolish because Scotland spends it, I think this debate is probably over.

I don't think that can be topped even if LJS was able to face up to his "cuts for the poorest" mantra and state it outright.

[LJS]

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Anyway, now that LJS is fully on board with Westminster not sending Scotland so much money because that's Westminster deciding to make Scotland look foolish because Scotland spends it, I think this debate is probably over.

I don't think that can be topped even if LJS was able to face up to his "cuts for the poorest" mantra and state it outright.

Cool by me, it's tiresome having my case blatantly & deliberately misrepresented all the time.

[Comfy Bean]

19 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

But still no sign of that 'tax the rich' thing. Are you even sure its coming?

It`s started although I think we agreed that no-one was celebrating ( as you put it ) and that the steps are small but in the right direction. 

Hunting estates ( lets assume not resided in by people on the bread line ) are no longer exempt from business rates. Folks living in the top 4 bands for council tax purposes will now pay more while the lower bands remain unaffected. Extra provisions introduced for people who are on the bread line - normally elderly who have seen the value of their family home soar and are therefore in the top 4 bands.

Perhaps NS is waiting on George and Dave to introduce their next tax cut for the rich before she plays her next card. Time will tell with elections here just round the corner. 

NS and George clearly have the same people in their sights.....but for different reasons in my opinion.

Thought it would be worth adding that you are clearly mis-representing what NS is saying and has said for years about cuts and the deficit. She has always spoke about who was being most affected, the speed of cuts and the lack of investment. She has said for years that some of these cuts are about Tory ideals and she even suggested that Osbourne would miss his targets !!!!

Fair enough if you have missed everything she has been saying ( although I doubt it ) but you are also completely mis - representing everything LJS has said about the Tory cuts.

As I recall, many folk on here argued against what the Tories were doing and the way they were going about it and you kept repeating your hilarious ditty " No cuts Eva ". What a time it was to be alive 

Anywayz, on the cuts, saw this yesterday. If anyone can be arsed then you can google and see NS has made similar points for a while. You may not agree with what the article or NS are saying but it`s a different voice that can`t be knocked down by Neil`s SNP Bad - No cuts Eva routine.

Well it probably can / will but you know what I mean 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35800993

[Comfy Bean]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Cool by me, it's tiresome having my case blatantly & deliberately misrepresented all the time.

Nicely put. I just posted something around the misrepresenting before I had seen this.

I don`t think Neil is a Tory and therefore he perhaps finds it difficult to defend them over the way they have introduced the cuts, wars, the Union stuff etc. Because he struggles with his position on many things being the same as the Tories he is more comfortable lashing out at anyone who holds a different view to his / theirs and calling them liars / Tories etc. It`s a curious tactic.

You are certainly consistent Neil 

I think you have attempted to stigmatise people who think Scotland should be an indy country. We regularly see posts on your site about " raving nationalists " " liars " stealing from the poor " " good little Tories " " greedy snippers ".

Show me one post from the YES side on here that justifies the above. I can show you plenty from people talking about a different path to the Tories moral and financial decisions and plenty about a fairer country where the divide between rich and poor could and should be narrowed.

and this is before we get to the Nukes !

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

Cool by me, it's tiresome having my case blatantly & deliberately misrepresented all the time.

Have you changed from "protecting the poor" to advocating the biggest cuts ever for the poor?

Yes you have.

No misrepresentation of anything there.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Have you changed from "protecting the poor" to advocating the biggest cuts ever for the poor?

Yes you have.

No misrepresentation of anything there.

I rest my case.

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It`s started although I think we agreed that no-one was celebrating ( as you put it ) and that the steps are small but in the right direction. 

Hunting estates ( lets assume not resided in by people on the bread line ) are no longer exempt from business rates. Folks living in the top 4 bands for council tax purposes will now pay more while the lower bands remain unaffected. Extra provisions introduced for people who are on the bread line - normally elderly who have seen the value of their family home soar and are therefore in the top 4 bands.

Perhaps NS is waiting on George and Dave to introduce their next tax cut for the rich before she plays her next card. Time will tell with elections here just round the corner. 

NS and George clearly have the same people in their sights.....but for different reasons in my opinion.

Thought it would be worth adding that you are clearly mis-representing what NS is saying and has said for years about cuts and the deficit. She has always spoke about who was being most affected, the speed of cuts and the lack of investment. She has said for years that some of these cuts are about Tory ideals and she even suggested that Osbourne would miss his targets !!!!

Fair enough if you have missed everything she has been saying ( although I doubt it ) but you are also completely mis - representing everything LJS has said about the Tory cuts.

As I recall, many folk on here argued against what the Tories were doing and the way they were going about it and you kept repeating your hilarious ditty " No cuts Eva ". What a time it was to be alive 

Anywayz, on the cuts, saw this yesterday. If anyone can be arsed then you can google and see NS has made similar points for a while. You may not agree with what the article or NS are saying but it`s a different voice that can`t be knocked down by Neil`s SNP Bad - No cuts Eva routine.

Well it probably can / will but you know what I mean 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35800993

Someone else now advocating worse-than-tory cuts to stay on SNP message.

Nice. I'm sure Scotland's poor will thank you.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Nicely put. I just posted something around the misrepresenting before I had seen this.

I don`t think Neil is a Tory and therefore he perhaps finds it difficult to defend them over the way they have introduced the cuts, wars, the Union stuff etc. Because he struggles with his position on many things being the same as the Tories he is more comfortable lashing out at anyone who holds a different view to his / theirs and calling them liars / Tories etc. It`s a curious tactic.

You are certainly consistent Neil 

I think you have attempted to stigmatise people who think Scotland should be an indy country. We regularly see posts on your site about " raving nationalists " " liars " stealing from the poor " " good little Tories " " greedy snippers ".

Show me one post from the YES side on here that justifies the above. I can show you plenty from people talking about a different path to the Tories moral and financial decisions and plenty about a fairer country where the divide between rich and poor could and should be narrowed.

and this is before we get to the Nukes !

How do you protect Scotland's pooor by imposing far bigger cuts on them than anything nthe tories will do?

Do get back to me on that one ... but please don't give me the bullshit about how that's not what you're doing. It's the *ONLY* outcome.

Just a few months ago you were telling me I was wrong that the SNP would need to make those cuts. Now you defend those cuts, and laughably try to pretend they'd be worth it.

You might not be 'justifying' those cuts, but that's only because you're still pretending they could be avoided when they couldn't, and because you're still indulging in laughable claims that Scotland's economy can grow quicker than China's.

Listen to what you're glorious leader said. She said she'd have to cut like George.

And while you like to pretend she'd cut in different places, there's fuck all chance of those different places leaving the poor unaffected when the cuts would have to be so very massive - the size of the whole of the SNHS.

Osborne's cuts were/are tiny in comparison!

Edited March 15, 2016 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

53 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Show me one post from the YES side on here that justifies the above.

I was about to reference w*nkers over scotland, but then I reread your post and saw the "on here".

[eFestivals]

While it looks like my recent posts have bee4n taken as as an excuse for the snippers to back out of here, they were really issued as a challenge. Are snippers up for a challenge? They very definitely are if they really want indy. But will they bottle it and run away scared? Only they know.

It'll be a shame if they do tho, because this thread was just getting interesting. They can no longer bury their heads in the sand about just how dire and poor an iScotland would be ... their claims of doing it for the poor have gone, and all they're left holding is a flag and empty dreams. To their own surprise but not mine they're still clinging to that flag, the only thing they have left.

They've invested too much of themselves in empty dreams to condemn their own stupidity and willingness to believe the lies of the white paper, because if it's said by the English it must be wrong - the only real basis their dream has ever been based on but which they failed to realise.

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

They've invested too much of themselves in empty dreams to condemn their own stupidity and willingness to believe the lies of the white paper, because if it's said by the English it must be wrong - the only real basis their dream has ever been based on but which they failed to realise.

I know you don`t get this but for the sake of anyone else " we " were NOT voting on the white paper. Whether it was said by the english or whoever, it was NOT what we were voting on.

This might not suit your argument but if you could get your head round this some of the other stuff around why some folk think we could be an independent country, taking decisions for ourselves, might start to make some sense.

It`s not about being anti-english. Far from it 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

While it looks like my recent posts have bee4n taken as as an excuse for the snippers to back out of here, they were really issued as a challenge. Are snippers up for a challenge?

Clearly. At times our debate can be very challenging but it can often be enjoyable 

In my opinion your recent posts are among your worst. I sense you know that and are deliberately mis-representing what people have said and are saying as you think this is all about proving yourself right. I almost prefer it when you resort to blasting Tory and or Liar at everyone who holds a different opinion to your own. I say almost as both are pretty poor form really.

Scotland voted to return into Dave`s arms. You won. There is no indy ref 2 but you are the only one on here who keeps imagining there is one.

Some day there will be a date and you can start all over again. In the meantime, I live in hope that the SNP can deliver something fairer up here than what Dave and Gideon desire. Hopefully  these new powers will give them more of a chance. 

Elections coming up so will see how that goes for the SNP. The council tax changes seem to be going down well. No sign of the rich flooding South to avoid them.....so far anyway 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I know you don`t get this but for the sake of anyone else " we " were NOT voting on the white paper.

It was the only option on offer. All of it's contents would have been in place before you had the opportunity to vote.

That aside, what exactly do you think you can get out of indy that improves your life?

The only thing left is that decisions would be made in Scotland - and yet the economics ensures they'll be worse decisions for the impact they have on people.

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

they're still clinging to that flag, the only thing they have left.

Almost poetic but you forgot about the caves. Surely they will be left. We are all Sawney Bean.

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It was the only option on offer. All of it's contents would have been in place before you had the opportunity to vote.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

" Should Scotland be an independent country ". There was no mention of the white paper. You and I both know this but you still stick to your only option banter. Tell us the one again about how there wouldn`t even have been elections in a newly indy Scotland. It`s one of my favourites. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Clearly. At times our debate can be very challenging but it can often be enjoyable 

In my opinion your recent posts are among your worst. I sense you know that and are deliberately mis-representing what people have said and are saying as you think this is all about proving yourself right. I almost prefer it when you resort to blasting Tory and or Liar at everyone who holds a different opinion to your own. I say almost as both are pretty poor form really.

Scotland voted to return into Dave`s arms. You won. There is no indy ref 2 but you are the only one on here who keeps imagining there is one.

Some day there will be a date and you can start all over again. In the meantime, I live in hope that the SNP can deliver something fairer up here than what Dave and Gideon desire. Hopefully  these new powers will give them more of a chance. 

Elections coming up so will see how that goes for the SNP. The council tax changes seem to be going down well. No sign of the rich flooding South to avoid them.....so far anyway 

There's the - constant - threat of indyref2, and the campaign for indyref2 has just been announced. The carrot for the rabid.

Despite that, anyone with half a brain knows there's not a chance in hell of that 2nd ref before 2022 at the earliest.

But the problems all still remain the same, and no one has any answers except "cuts like Westminster". Unless cutting is what you want to do there is no answer.

It's one thing deciding that the SNP are the best (most timid) option for the normal council-like domestic agenda, but it remains the role of only the vacuous to keep on giving them a free pass over the huge whoppers they told which would have taken iScotland to disaster.

Only when indy supporters are calling out the SNP as w*nkers will Scotland have shown the maturity of politics it likes to believe of itself.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Clearly. At times our debate can be very challenging but it can often be enjoyable 

In my opinion your recent posts are among your worst. I sense you know that and are deliberately mis-representing what people have said and are saying as you think this is all about proving yourself right. I almost prefer it when you resort to blasting Tory and or Liar at everyone who holds a different opinion to your own. I say almost as both are pretty poor form really.

Scotland voted to return into Dave`s arms. You won. There is no indy ref 2 but you are the only one on here who keeps imagining there is one.

Some day there will be a date and you can start all over again. In the meantime, I live in hope that the SNP can deliver something fairer up here than what Dave and Gideon desire. Hopefully  these new powers will give them more of a chance. 

Elections coming up so will see how that goes for the SNP. The council tax changes seem to be going down well. No sign of the rich flooding South to avoid them.....so far anyway 

There's the - constant - threat of indyref2, and the campaign for indyref2 has just been announced. The carrot for the rabid.

Despite that, anyone with half a brain knows there's not a chance in hell of that 2nd ref before 2022 at the earliest.

But the problems all still remain the same, and no one has any answers except "cuts like Westminster". Unless cutting is what you want to do there is no answer.

It's one thing deciding that the SNP are the best (most timid) option for the normal council-like domestic agenda, but it remains the role of only the vacuous to keep on giving them a free pass over the huge whoppers they told which would have taken iScotland to disaster.

Only when indy supporters are calling out the SNP as w*nkers will Scotland have shown the maturity of politics it likes to believe of itself.

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

That aside, what exactly do you think you can get out of indy that improves your life?

 

 

You really have no idea. The cost of everything but the value of nothing is a phrase that keeps popping up on here. Do you never wonder why 

Actually read the posts from other posters and stop making up what other people are saying on here. The answers to the above have been posted on your site for years now. If you don`t have time to read many, a few from today or yesterday would probably do it.