The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

On 01/04/2016 at 1:19 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Here we go again with this " sturgeon`s line "

Her actual line is that she has ruled out a 50% rate this year but not for the whole parliament term. She has given her reason for that as LJS linked to the other week and I suspect you already know.

Her reason was what I said that is Sturgeon's line - that the rich will run away from Scotland if they're taxed more with income taxes.

I'm simply pointing out that if they'll run away because they're higher-taxed by income taxes, they'll also run away if they're higher taxed by other taxes.

And that the "more levers needed" line to tax in different ways makes fuck all difference. It's always money from the rich which is being extra taxed, and it's those extra taxes which will make them head south, not the particular tax that's used to tax them with.

 

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Are you avoiding commenting on the Tory line up here on tax ?

It's as shit as it is in England. What of it?

There's about the same nasty gap between tory tax policy and SNP tax policy than there is between SNP tax policy and Labour tax policy.

But only one of those tax policies is formulated with social justice in mind. Are you smart enough to know which one it is, or is left now raving-right in Scotland to snippers?

 

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Should we gain independence then some rich folk will vote for it and be happy with this general direction of tax. If not, they will continue to vote no or flea south as you put it. of course you never slag off these no voters.

It's the same everywhere. The rich don't want to pay taxes.

I see that you've now given up your claim that Scotland is politically and morally different, and now accept that Scots are just like other people.

 

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I believe they are entitled to vote how they wish and life wherever they think suits them. No hard feelings etc.

PMSL ... you believe they're entitled to vote how they wish providing you've first contrived the electorate to ensure your side win.

 

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We know from your article that 80+% of Jocks are happy to have their tax set by Holyrood not Westminster. Have a think about that .......

That's not true at all, but as ever you've either decided to post a lie or you're too stupid to understand the nuances.

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by eFestivals

[grumpyhack]

I read this morning that Howard Marks has now gone to an even nicer place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-34465454

 

[LJS]

On 13/01/2016 at 6:57 AM, russycarps said:

Do I even need to mention that oil prices dipped below $30 yesterday? That the North sea oil industry is on its arse. Tens of thousands of job losses since 2004. More to come in 2016.

All just an irrelevance though I expect. Won't have any impact on and independent scotland of course. 

The magic date in March is approaching....

you given up on the oil price updates, Russy?

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

you given up on the oil price updates, Russy?

it's still half the price of what it costs (on average) to extract from around Scotland.

Even at $120 a barrel it still wouldn't raise enough revenue to offset Scotland's deficit gap. Even now you haven't realised that Salmond spun you One Big Lie.

You'll have to find another baseless and hopeless idea to cling to.

[russycarps]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

you given up on the oil price updates, Russy?

I had, but am happy to restart them if you like? 

$43.95 last time I looked, and oil traders are positioning themselves for price falls, not increases. Put options tied to a $30 July strike price, and a $30 December strike price are the most popular position.

But is all this really necessary? The oil myth has already been comprehensively and categorically obliterated hasnt it? I thought even the most rabid of raving nationalists had given up on this one.

Maybe not though!

 

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, russycarps said:

But is all this really necessary? The oil myth has already been comprehensively and categorically obliterated hasnt it? I thought even the most rabid of raving nationalists had given up on this one.

Maybe not though!

 

what they've not given up on is money somehow falling from the sky to cover the deficit gap and make an iScotland at current wealth levels viable.

Given that there's not a hope in hell of it appearing from another direction, it's always going to keep coming back to the oil - probably until the price is something high again but it's clear the extraction revenues won't ever make up the shortfall (which they won't, extraction costs are getting ever-higher)

Don't forget, LJS has banked all of his hopes on something happening to make up the shortfall, his repeated-stated certainty that the SNP will come up with a plan. He has to have something to hold onto.

 

[LJS]

38 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I had, but am happy to restart them if you like? 

$43.95 last time I looked, and oil traders are positioning themselves for price falls, not increases. Put options tied to a $30 July strike price, and a $30 December strike price are the most popular position.

But is all this really necessary? The oil myth has already been comprehensively and categorically obliterated hasnt it? I thought even the most rabid of raving nationalists had given up on this one.

Maybe not though!

 

Of course not necessary. Funnily enough you presumably thought it was necessary when the price was going down  - its only unnecessary when it's going back up.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Of course not necessary. Funnily enough you presumably thought it was necessary when the price was going down  - its only unnecessary when it's going back up.

anything less than $80 and Scottish generated oil revenues don't exist.

Get back to us when it's $150, and you might have something other than "we dodged punching ourselves in the face" to say.

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

anything less than $80 and Scottish generated oil revenues don't exist.

Get back to us when it's $150, and you might have something other than "we dodged punching ourselves in the face" to say.

OK

[russycarps]

54 minutes ago, LJS said:

Of course not necessary. Funnily enough you presumably thought it was necessary when the price was going down  - its only unnecessary when it's going back up.

Well this whole thread is unnecessary really, after the raving nationalists were soundly beaten.

But hey ho. I'll keep updating if it gives you a crumb of comfort.

 

[eFestivals]

I see the SNP have launched their manifesto.

And I see that the party who once promised to fight austerity now promise to implement cuts.

And the party that once claimed hope over fear has stopped hoping that the rich might pay higher taxes and now fears that rich Scots will be disloyal to Scotland.

It's funny how the world turns.

[Comfy Bean]

It looks from the polls that hope still rules over fear up here. 

Only you were continuously mocking with no cuts Eva but now it's snp bad? 

We all said rich brit nats might flea and while the snp and greens want to increase taxes your team are raging and want tax cuts. 

Take a look at the polls :-)

Snp and greens for me. The tories are picking up the unionist vote.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I see the SNP have launched their manifesto.

And I see that the party who once promised to fight austerity now promise to implement cuts.

And the party that once claimed hope over fear has stopped hoping that the rich might pay higher taxes and now fears that rich Scots will be disloyal to Scotland.

It's funny how the world turns.

Anything in the manifesto you like the sound of? 

[LJS]

2 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It looks from the polls that hope still rules over fear up here. 

Only you were continuously mocking with no cuts Eva but now it's snp bad? 

We all said rich brit nats might flea and while the snp and greens want to increase taxes your team are raging and want tax cuts. 

Take a look at the polls :-)

Snp and greens for me. The tories are picking up the unionist vote.

I'm SNP & green too. Comfy.

Best of both worlds.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I see the SNP have launched their manifesto.

And I see that the party who once promised to fight austerity now promise to implement cuts.

 

please help me, Neil. I can't find these cuts the SNP are implementing. I even googled "SNP cuts" but to no avail.

Is this one of your special "paraphrases"?

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It looks from the polls that hope still rules over fear up here. 

Yes, you label yourself the good guys, and not worry about any of the facts.:lol:

Awkward facts like, perhaps, the last 12 months has seen a shrinking in the support for indy rather than growth. Not much shrinkage, true, but shrinkage all the same.

And awkward facts such as 23% of indy supporters still believing that the UK rips off Scotland, rather than gifting it huge sums each and every year.

 

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Only you were continuously mocking with no cuts Eva but now it's snp bad? 

I was mocking LJS and feral with that, not the SNP.

With such low levels of understanding for the most obvious of things, is it any wonder you support indy on the basis of impossible outcomes?

 

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We all said rich brit nats might flea and while the snp and greens want to increase taxes your team are raging and want tax cuts.

I'm loving your 'civic nationalism' here comfy. There's clearly no hatred of the English, oh no.

No true Scot could possibly object to higher taxes. It's only those hated English (sorry, BritNats) who do. 

 

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Take a look at the polls :-)

I have.

Support for indie is falling. What's that about independence being inevitable?

The SNP have postponed idyref2 forever, or haven't you been listening? The '60% for a year' thing is never going to happen.

It's another carrot for the rabid, and you're happy to chew.

 

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Snp and greens for me. The tories are picking up the unionist vote.

I love how the self-proclaimed left-leaners in Scotland are against the left-wing ideal of taxation and redistribution and support the specifically-chosen austerity of the SNP, and are desprately hoping that the tories become Scotland's 2nd party, while wanting to drive Scotland's poorest into a far-worse poverty.

While the SNP announce tory school policy for Scotland as the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce tory child care policy for Scotland while the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce a £500m real terms increase in funding for the NHS for Scotland while the snippers cheer ... at the SNP not awarding all of the new money being sent from England to fund the SNHS towards the SNHS.

It looks to me like the SNP are picking up the tory vote, what with a much bigger list of tory policies than anything left-leaning.

Edited April 24, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Anything in the manifesto you like the sound of? 

I would have liked some land reform, but it's not got a mention. How odd.

(dammit, there's another biggie past-promise missing too I know, but it's slipped my mind).

I would have liked the unfair council tax abolished, but suddenly the left-leaners of the SNP think that tory local taxes to absolve the rich are great.

I'm not liking "we're the austerity party, we love austerity and could fix it, but Scotland loves austerity too so we're keeping with it".

Oh ... there is of course "we're going to plunge Scotland into even greater debt, to add to the much greater debts we've already put on the councils" ... but do I like it? I'm not sure.

So I'm struggling. How about you?

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, LJS said:

please help me, Neil. I can't find these cuts the SNP are implementing. I even googled "SNP cuts" but to no avail.

Is this one of your special "paraphrases"?

the SNP have decided to allow the revenues available to the SG to shrink, when they could have grown them or kept them the same.

What have you missed, or failed to understand?

Edited April 24, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

the SNP have decided to allow the revenues available to the SG to shrink, when they could have grown them or kept them the same.

What have you missed, or failed to understand?

This is factually incorrect. In other words you made it up.

Unless of course the SNP are now to blame for UK Tory cuts (as approved by you)

 

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, LJS said:

This is factually incorrect. In other words you made it up.

Unless of course the SNP are now to blame for UK Tory cuts (as approved by you)

 

In 'real terms' SG revenues will shrink. Care to tell me how that's wrong?

The SNP aren't responsible for Tory cuts, but they are responsible for going along with those cuts rather than choosing to reverse them.

</cue some words in response for how its for other parts of the UK to magic up some extra money especially for Scotland, said without irony from the lips of the man who reckons Scotland should self finance and Scots would be happy to pay extra if it was soley for the benefit of Scots>

Edited April 24, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

43 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In 'real terms' SG revenues will shrink. Care to tell me how that's wrong?

The SNP aren't responsible for Tory cuts, but they are responsible for going along with those cuts rather than choosing to reverse them.

</cue some words in response for how its for other parts of the UK to magic up some extra money especially for Scotland, said without irony from the lips of the man who reckons Scotland should self finance and Scots would be happy to pay extra if it was soley for the benefit of Scots>

Strangely, according to Neil, in the general need thread, there is no alternative to Tory cuts whilst on this thread there is.

Odd that.

Anyway, the cuts remain Tory cuts not SNP cuts. The SNP are doing a wee bit to mitigate them. As you are well aware, I wish they were doing more which is why they will only receive 50% of my votes. The other 50% will go to the party with the most radical redistributive proposals (i am excluding parties which have no chance of winning a seat)

[LJS]

Raising a glass to Neil & Russy in the Yes Bar in Glasgow.

Cheers.

[Comfy Bean]

54 minutes ago, LJS said:

Raising a glass to Neil & Russy in the Yes Bar in Glasgow.

Cheers.

Decent enough bar that :-)

Used to drink in it when it was Vespa. You should cross the lane and have a pint of West in the horseshoe. 

Come to think of it, they may sell west where you are.

Enjoy your afternoon :-)

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Decent enough bar that :-)

Used to drink in it when it was Vespa. You should cross the lane and have a pint of West in the horseshoe. 

Come to think of it, they may sell west where you are.

Enjoy your afternoon :-)

Usually visit the horseshoe when in Glasgow...just decided on a wee change the day. On the bus home now. 

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, LJS said:

Strangely, according to Neil, in the general need thread, there is no alternative to Tory cuts whilst on this thread there is.

Odd that.

Anyway, the cuts remain Tory cuts not SNP cuts. The SNP are doing a wee bit to mitigate them. As you are well aware, I wish they were doing more which is why they will only receive 50% of my votes. The other 50% will go to the party with the most radical redistributive proposals (i am excluding parties which have no chance of winning a seat)

In the UK, the UK voted for cuts. In Scotland, Scotland voted for a party that claimed itself as anti-austerity. It has the powers to address austerity. So why isn't it?

(I'll just point out here that if it doesn't like the powers now, it can promise to use the more variable powers in a year. Is there a promise to do that? Nope).

In fact, of Scotland's major parties, SNP policies are by-far the closest to tory policies - with full acceptance of the tory cuts, and almost-nothing being done with the available powers

And you vocally support them.

A smart man would admit how things are. A man who has lost all sense and reason looks to defend them for their deliberate decision to not address austerity as they claimed they'd do.

It turns out that Scotland is not different to tory England after all. Just like tory England, Scotland feels that tory cuts are a better thing than higher taxes and the redistribution of that extra tax income to benefit the poorest.

Who'd have thought it? Anyone that was paying attention and who hadn't swallowed what were always clearly myths.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals