The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In the UK, the UK voted for cuts. In Scotland, Scotland voted for a party that claimed itself as anti-austerity. It has the powers to address austerity. So why isn't it?

(I'll just point out here that if it doesn't like the powers now, it can promise to use the more variable powers in a year. Is there a promise to do that? Nope).

In fact, of Scotland's major parties, SNP policies are by-far the closest to tory policies - with full acceptance of the tory cuts, and almost-nothing being done with the available powers

And you vocally support them.

Wrong. I have vocally criticised them for their tax policy.

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

A smart man would admit how things are. A man who has lost all sense and reason looks to defend them for their deliberate decision to not address austerity as they claimed they'd do.

Where have I defended them ?

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It turns out that Scotland is not different to tory England after all. Just like tory England, Scotland feels that tory cuts are a better thing than higher taxes and the redistribution of that extra tax income to benefit the poorest.

The SNP will win, not because of their tax policy, but because many voters believe the other parties are shite. I have absolutely no doubt they would still win if they were promising tax rises.

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Who'd have thought it? Anyone that was paying attention and who hadn't swallowed what were always clearly myths.

It's not a myth that Scotland consistently votes more left wing than England.

[LJS]

10 days to the election & no Labour manifesto....that's odd.

[Comfy Bean]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It turns out that Scotland is not different to tory England after all. Just like tory England, Scotland feels that tory cuts are a better thing than higher taxes and the redistribution of that extra tax income to benefit the poorest.

Who'd have thought it? Anyone that was paying attention and who hadn't swallowed what were always clearly myths.

I like the irony in the last part 

Meanwhile in the real world and away from comments under newspaper articles, the Conservative and Unionist Party " scored " 1 ( one ) seat in Scotland. 

Can you be more specific with what you mean by " Just like Tory England " ? Do you mean the drift from Labour voters up here to the Tories ? It`s a thing I believe but waaay less than South of the border as I understand it.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

Wrong. I have vocally criticised them for their tax policy.

And you've also told me I'm factually wrong when I talk the facts of all their policies.

Is that because you have a fair and reasonable intellectual approach, or because indy-dogma has now sucked you up your own arse?

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

Where have I defended them ?

when you called me factually wrong on the last page when I stated the facts.

FFS.

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

The SNP will win, not because of their tax policy, but because many voters believe the other parties are shite. I have absolutely no doubt they would still win if they were promising tax rises.

And that's fine.

Or at least it would be, if your intellect could admit the other parts of their policies and the effects they have and how they're contrary to lots of the guff the SNP have said. Instead, you add your own guff in support of their own hypocritical statements.

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

It's not a myth that Scotland consistently votes more left wing than England.

But it is a myth to think they mean much by it.

It's like the myth that Scotland has few tories. It's bollocks.

SNP tax policy and the support it has shows just how close to the tory line the thinking in Scotland really is. People didn't stop thinking tory in the 80s in the Scotland, it merely became socially unacceptable to vote that way (Baaaaa).

SNP tax policy is the right of Blair, and you think that's a better thing than helping the poor. You're welcome to do that, but when you claim its not that when it is you're laughable.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Meanwhile in the real world and away from comments under newspaper articles, the Conservative and Unionist Party " scored " 1 ( one ) seat in Scotland. 

and meanwhile in the real world you're about to vote for a party who are happy to implement tory tax cuts rather than do something about them with the powers they have to avoid them.

You're voting SNP and getting tory.

What have you missed?

 

Quote

Can you be more specific with what you mean by " Just like Tory England " ? Do you mean the drift from Labour voters up here to the Tories ? It`s a thing I believe but waaay less than South of the border as I understand it.

I mean:-

"Let's not raise taxes to defend spending. Instead, let's cut spending." Just like the tory line.

You know, the SNP policies you're supporting.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

23 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Yes, you label yourself the good guys, and not worry about any of the facts.:lol:

Don`t follow what you mean here. Seems a bit of a sweeping statement.

Awkward facts like, perhaps, the last 12 months has seen a shrinking in the support for indy rather than growth. Not much shrinkage, true, but shrinkage all the same.

The direction of travel over a longer period is clear for all to see. If you find a crumb of comfort in whatever poll you`ve seen then fair enough.

And awkward facts such as 23% of indy supporters still believing that the UK rips off Scotland, rather than gifting it huge sums each and every year.

I think this number will increase when the Tories next smoke and mirrors / creative accounting scheme around NHS funding comes into play. The consequentials part of Barnett could be interesting going forward. 

I was mocking LJS and feral with that, not the SNP.

I meant I thought you recognised that cuts were required. It was the way the Tories went about cutting benefits to the poor and disabled that seemed to put you on the opposite side of most on here.

With such low levels of understanding for the most obvious of things, is it any wonder you support indy on the basis of impossible outcomes?

Thank you

I'm loving your 'civic nationalism' here comfy. There's clearly no hatred of the English, oh no.

No true Scot could possibly object to higher taxes. It's only those hated English (sorry, BritNats) who do. 

This part is just silly. You are referring to me saying that some rich folks here would flea over the border should they be asked to pay more. A point you have already conceded. I was clearly referring to rich Scottish folks yet you chose to make it about hatred of English. For the record, I was referring to rich Scots ( obviously ) and would add that I don`t " hate " them, just accept that some of them would move their finances over the road to keep more of their wealth for themselves instead of paying more tax. your determination to make this about hatred is quite revealing in my opinion. I don`t hate England or English folk. I have no idea why you are uncomfortable with this.

I have.

Support for indie is falling. What's that about independence being inevitable?

The SNP have postponed idyref2 forever, or haven't you been listening? The '60% for a year' thing is never going to happen. We`ll see 

It's another carrot for the rabid, and you're happy to chew.

I got a leaflet through the door at the weekend from Ruth. Before binning it I read about half the front page. She mentioned the SNP and Indy ref 2 about 4 times. You and her go on about another ref more than anyone I know. Considering you were both on the winning side you can`t seem to let go. In fairness to you, you don`t get your picture taken every day sitting on a tank waving the Union Jack (  well as far as I know ) 

 

I love how the self-proclaimed left-leaners in Scotland are against the left-wing ideal of taxation and redistribution and support the specifically-chosen austerity of the SNP, and are desprately hoping that the tories become Scotland's 2nd party, while wanting to drive Scotland's poorest into a far-worse poverty.

I hope the Green vote increases and will lend them my support ( again ). I hope Labour come 2nd but expect the Tory PR drive as the only true party of the brave unionists will see them increase their vote at Labour`s expense.Hopefully not by much though.

While the SNP announce tory school policy for Scotland as the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce tory child care policy - The SNP have had " Bairns not Bombs for ages . for Scotland while the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce a £500m real terms increase in funding for the NHS for Scotland while the snippers cheer ... at the SNP not awarding all of the new money being sent from England to fund the SNHS towards the SNHS.

It looks to me like the SNP are picking up the tory vote, what with a much bigger list of tory policies than anything left-leaning.

" It looks to me like the SNP are picking up the tory vote ".........

Dear O Dear. What rubbish have you been reading now. The Tory vote is pretty consistent and perhaps increasing. The Tories are still banging on about the SNP increasing taxes while they want to reduce them. They are running with Ruth`s line about a sign at the border " Higher taxes here ". Ukip are also going with this line. If anything, the Tories are taking votes from Labour who , for a while now, can`t decide whether to attempt to compete with the SNP or go after the Tories and protect 2nd spot. In my opinion, they should focus on the latter. In the real world, the SNP are unlikely to convince Tory voters to join their cause 

 

[Comfy Bean]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

It's like the myth that Scotland has few tories. It's bollocks.

 

If you mean MP`s then you are correct. 1 is not a " few " 

You are clearly going to be cheer leading for the Tories here today as you have mentioned them about 10 times already. Good luck with that. They will finish 3rd again in my opinion. Way behind the SNP and also behind Labour. It`s just how it is. I thought you would be pleased that over half of people living in Scotland do not vote Tory or UKIP. I know I am 

Edited April 25, 2016 by comfortablynumb1910
To confirm 10 shouts out, so far, for the Tories was accurate

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The direction of travel over a longer period is clear for all to see. If you find a crumb of comfort in whatever poll you`ve seen then fair enough.

The direction of travel since the indyref is downwards, not upwards - that's the only true fact it's clear to see.

Yes, that shrinkage is very minimal. So minimal that it's fair enough to say support has flatlined rather than shrunk.

What's not fair enough - because it's a lie - is to say it's increasing.

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This part is just silly. You are referring to me saying that some rich folks here would flea over the border should they be asked to pay more. A point you have already conceded. I was clearly referring to rich Scottish folks yet you chose to make it about hatred of English. For the record, I was referring to rich Scots ( obviously ) and would add that I don`t " hate " them, just accept that some of them would move their finances over the road to keep more of their wealth for themselves instead of paying more tax. your determination to make this about hatred is quite revealing in my opinion. I don`t hate England or English folk. I have no idea why you are uncomfortable with this.

what's fucking silly is your lying revisionism.

You didn't say "rich folks", you said "BritNats" - suggesting that No True Scot would object to higher taxes.

And that's the end of the 'civic nationalism' line for you personally. All True Scots support indie, and only traitors and quislings don't - is the line you gave.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what's fucking silly is your lying revisionism.

You didn't say "rich folks", you said "BritNats" - suggesting that No True Scot would object to higher taxes.

And that's the end of the 'civic nationalism' line for you personally. All True Scots support indie, and only traitors and quislings don't - is the line you gave.

I have clearly stated that I think some Scottish folk will object to the higher taxes. 

I do NOT think that " all true scots " ( whatever YOU mean by that ) would not object to higher taxes.

 I have never, as in never ever, said that all true Scots support indie as clearly this would be idiotic. I find the line YOU use above offensive and am disappointed but not surprised that you are trying to attribute it to me. It`s the same needless bollocks with all the hate england stuff you try and bring into play. Desperate stuff 

" Traitors and quislings " is not the line I gave so why would you say that ? I have never said that or anything like it as fine you know.

I note " suggesting " is your new word for " paraphrasing " 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what's fucking silly is your lying revisionism.

You didn't say "rich folks", you said "BritNats" - suggesting that No True Scot would object to higher taxes.

And that's the end of the 'civic nationalism' line for you personally. All True Scots support indie, and only traitors and quislings don't - is the line you gave.

 

On 01/04/2016 at 1:19 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Here we go again with this " sturgeon`s line "

Her actual line is that she has ruled out a 50% rate this year but not for the whole parliament term. She has given her reason for that as LJS linked to the other week and I suspect you already know.

For now, the richer will not receive the westminster tax cut but should hopefully survive and be able to pay the increase in their council tax. 

Are you avoiding commenting on the Tory line up here on tax ?

Should we gain independence then some rich folk will vote for it and be happy with this general direction of tax. If not, they will continue to vote no or flea south as you put it. of course you never slag off these no voters.

I believe they are entitled to vote how they wish and life wherever they think suits them. No hard feelings etc.

We know from your article that 80+% of Jocks are happy to have their tax set by Holyrood not Westminster. Have a think about that .......

 

 

 

You are indeed correct. Apologies.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I have clearly stated that I think some Scottish folk will object to the higher taxes. 

I do NOT think that " all true scots " ( whatever YOU mean by that ) would not object to higher taxes.

 I have never, as in never ever, said that all true Scots support indie as clearly this would be idiotic. I find the line YOU use above offensive and am disappointed but not surprised that you are trying to attribute it to me. It`s the same needless bollocks with all the hate england stuff you try and bring into play. Desperate stuff 

" Traitors and quislings " is not the line I gave so why would you say that ? I have never said that or anything like it as fine you know.

I note " suggesting " is your new word for " paraphrasing " 

 

 

 

Oh look, more lies and attempts at revisionism.

Anyone might think you're embarrassed at being called out as the person that you are.

On 23/04/2016 at 9:44 AM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

We all said rich brit nats might flea

 

[Comfy Bean]

I agree that this is embarrassing

The SNP are increasing Council Tax in the higher bands and not passing on the latest Tory tax cut.

I am not suggesting that everyone will be happy with this. I am not suggesting that all scots want higher taxes. You are being silly if you think that is what I meant ?

I never really consider myself as a flag waving nationalist but as I have said before, scottish nationalist, british nationalist are really just name tags that folk use. I did ask you once if you considered yourself a Brit Nat but you said you didn`t and I have never called you that once. You have called me a Tory, separatist, nationalist umpteen times. You also accuse me of hating people because of where they were born but I assume you only do that when you are losing an argument 

You appear to be calling me out ( as you put it ) on all this true Scot and quisling banter that YOU said. If I`m wrong, feel free to quote me. 

As I said before, that fact that I don`t hate no voters or english folk appears to be such an issue for you that you are reduced to making stuff up about the type of person I am. It`s quite odd really 

 

[LJS]

46 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Oh look, more lies and attempts at revisionism.

Anyone might think you're embarrassed at being called out as the person that you are.

 

 

 

Brit Nats can be any nationality. Just as snippers can. 

You interpreting comfy's use of the word as anti-English is frankly bizarre.

[Comfy Bean]

and another thing..........

On reflection there are probably some folk who are not rich that would consider leaving an indy Scotland. I only mentioned rich as we were talking about increased taxes.

I would also assume that there could be the odd person who would want to move to an indy Scotland.

Perhaps even yourself Neil  

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Brit Nats can be any nationality. Just as snippers can. 

You interpreting comfy's use of the word as anti-English is frankly bizarre.

Correct. This anti-English card is one Neil has been trying to play for a while but without any success. Laughable stuff. I conceded ages ago that there are some folk up here who " hate" England, of course there are. 

It`s his problem and perhaps revealing that he " concluded " that being anti-english must be what independence is about.

 

[eFestivals]

54 minutes ago, LJS said:

Brit Nats can be any nationality. Just as snippers can. 

there's No True Scot who'd avoid taxes.

I know that because comfy told me.

If you can't see the racism in that it's because you see very little of the truth of things about Scotland.

 

54 minutes ago, LJS said:

You interpreting comfy's use of the word as anti-English is frankly bizarre.

When someone says No True Scot would avoid taxes, they either need to prove their point or recognise their own racism.

[eFestivals]

54 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

and another thing..........

On reflection there are probably some folk who are not rich that would consider leaving an indy Scotland. I only mentioned rich as we were talking about increased taxes.

I would also assume that there could be the odd person who would want to move to an indy Scotland.

Perhaps even yourself Neil  

but you didn't mention "rich" you only mentioned BritNats.

Your revisionism is because you know you've been stupidly racist, and not because you know your point was well made.

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Correct. This anti-English card is one Neil has been trying to play for a while but without any success. Laughable stuff. I conceded ages ago that there are some folk up here who " hate" England, of course there are. 

It`s his problem and perhaps revealing that he " concluded " that being anti-english must be what independence is about.

 

No success?

You're the man saying that No True Scot would avoid taxes.

You've just given me my success, tho I wish you'd kept your racism to yourself..

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

there's No True Scot who'd avoid taxes.

I know that because comfy told me.

Really? Not that I can see he didn't.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

If you can't see the racism in that

 

I can't.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

it's because you see very little of the truth of things about Scotland.

No. It's because there was no racism there. You made it up.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

When someone says No True Scot would avoid taxes, they either need to prove their point or recognise their own racism.

Just as well no one said it then. 

Apart from you & you made it up.

[Comfy Bean]

Clearly, I never ever said no true Scot would avoid paying taxes. In reality you said true Scot and when I quoted you I said...Whatever that means! 

In reality I was saying people who live in Scotland might switch their finances over a border to avoid paying more tax. I never once said they were English in this imaginary scenario. 

You then accused me of being racist. 

Ridiculous and quite offensive. 

Desperate scenes :-)

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Clearly, I never ever said no true Scot would avoid paying taxes.

True.

You merely said only BritNats would try to avoid higher taxes.

I dunno what you're using as your baseline for the quality of your own words, but some aren't as dim as you believe and are perfectly able to fully understand what you mean.

The inference that No True Scot would do the same just as much as the words that stated 'Brit Nat'.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

Apart from you & you made it up.

So what do you think comfy did mean when he only referred to brit nats who'd try to avoid taxes?

Are you stupid enough to be unable to recognise the other side of that? That not-BriTNats - you know, True Scots,- would all willingly pay every penny?

FFS, do you think I'm as green as the oil-burning Scottish Greens are not?

[Comfy Bean]

Just now, eFestivals said:

True.

You merely said only BritNats would try to avoid higher taxes.

I dunno what you're using as your baseline for the quality of your own words, but some aren't as dim as you believe and are perfectly able to fully understand what you mean.

The inference that No True Scot would do the same just as much as the words stated 'Brit Nat'.

Ok....so you are inferring what I didn`t say. Can I suggest you read back our exchange. We have had this conversation before on this thread and on the general one around nationalism. 

On the specific point on tax. I am almost certain ( will check later ) that you agreed with this point when it came up before. I never today or previously said or implied " English ". It`s a ridiculous point that you have made up and then expanded on. 

Can you please quote my post that contains " racism ".  Have you read all the posts I made earlier today ?

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Ok....so you are inferring what I didn`t say. Can I suggest you read back our exchange. We have had this conversation before on this thread and on the general one around nationalism. 

On the specific point on tax. I am almost certain ( will check later ) that you agreed with this point when it came up before. I never today or previously said or implied " English ". It`s a ridiculous point that you have made up and then expanded on. 

Can you please quote my post that contains " racism ".  Have you read all the posts I made earlier today ?

 

Yes, i've seen and read your desperate attempts at back-tracking, where you said that you'd talked about 'rich folks' and not 'brit nats'.

There was a reason why you said - very specifically - 'brit nats' as the ones to avoid higher taxes.

Care to share with us all what that reason was?