The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

The opposite of britnat is not "true Scot" but snipper or scotnat. 

Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, Alistair Carmichael etc are all britnats, I would suggest & last time I checked they were Scottish. Equally some of my northern Irish & Welsh friends are snippers but presumably disbarred through accident of birth from being "true Scots"

Your desperation in trying to pin the racist tag on comfy is actually quite funny. 

Civic nationalism is alive & well & for my money no one exemplifies it on here better than comfy.

One of the things that heartens me greatly about the independence movement is the almost complete lack of anti englishness I see.

 

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, LJS said:

The opposite of britnat is not "true Scot" but snipper or scotnat. 

And BritNats are just as Scottish as any other Scots?

How can that be, when (in what comfy posted) it's *only* the BriNats who'd run away to England, and *only* the BritNats who will refuse to pay higher taxes towards Scotland?

What has a constitutional political affiliation - which isn't even 'left' and 'right' here, remember - got to do with taxes anyway, of who will pay them and who will avoid them?

 

(Meanwhile there's 50% of Scots - with not a single BritNat amongst them - ensuring there won't be higher taxes anyway. )

 

I asked....

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So what do you think comfy did mean when he only referred to brit nats who'd try to avoid taxes?

... and nothing of your answer tries to answer the question posed of you, instead trying to find dust to hide the indefensible.

 

 

27 minutes ago, LJS said:

One of the things that heartens me greatly about the independence movement is the almost complete lack of anti englishness I see.

 

Just out of interest, do you think John McDonnell was on the money when he claimed Boris was using 'dog whistle racism' last week about Obama?

Do you think Farage uses dog whistle racism on his crowd?

Do you know what dog whistle racism is, and how it works?

Perhaps you might take a moment to reconsider your opinions.

Edited April 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And BritNats are just as Scottish as any other Scots?

Britnat is not a definition of Nationality. And being Scottish is not something that is good (or bad) It is an accident of birth. But yes, if you really need an answer to your wildly irrelevant question A Britnat who happens to be Scottish is as Scottish as me.

(Whilst I have no doubt I have used the word on here, Britnat is not a word I generally use to describe people) 

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

How can that be, when (in what comfy posted) it's *only* the BriNats who'd run away to England, and *only* the BritNats who will refuse to pay higher taxes towards Scotland?

Well, Neil let's have look at what Comfy posted...

" We all said rich brit nats might flea..." 

No "only" no asterisks, no mention of England. 

Yup, it's neil's special paraphrasing. 

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What has a constitutional political affiliation - which isn't even 'left' and 'right' here, remember - got to do with taxes anyway, of who will pay them and who will avoid them?

Nothing at all. Although I guess if you have just voted for Scottish Independence you might be a wee bit more inclined to stay put & shell out a few quid more on tax?

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

(Meanwhile there's 50% of Scots - with not a single BritNat amongst them - ensuring there won't be higher taxes anyway. )

Yeah, that's a shame.

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I asked....

"So what do you think comfy did mean when he only referred to brit nats who'd try to avoid taxes?"

... and nothing of your answer tries to answer the question posed of you, instead trying to find dust to hide the indefensible.

I think I have covered that above now. Apologies for the delay.

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

 

Just out of interest, do you think John McDonnell was on the money when he claimed Boris was using 'dog whistle racism' last week about Obama?

I'm genuinely not sure. Boris is sometimes quite hard to fathom. 

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Do you think Farage uses dog whistle racism on his crowd?

Of course.

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Do you know what dog whistle racism is, and how it works?

Yes.

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Perhaps you might take a moment to reconsider your opinions.

Why would I want to do that, Neil? In as much as a white man can be, I am comfortable with my attitude to racism. I guess like many folk, I feel disappointed that I haven't always confronted it as consistently as I might have.

 

I remain incredulous that you think there is mileage in trying to make Comfy of all people out to be racist. It can only be desperation.

 

English bastard

[LJS]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The direction of travel since the indyref is downwards, not upwards - that's the only true fact it's clear to see.

Yes, that shrinkage is very minimal. So minimal that it's fair enough to say support has flatlined rather than shrunk.

What's not fair enough - because it's a lie - is to say it's increasing.

I'm not sure what your definition of downwards is.

In the indy ref the score was 55:45 for your team.

According to "what Scotland Thinks" there have been 36 opinion polls since then.

Not one of them has recorded a No vote greater than 55% 

2 have recorded support at 55% but none in the past year.

the other 34 have all shown support at 54% or less.

None have shown yes on  less than 45%

2 have shown yes on 45% but none in the past year.

the other 34 have all show support at 46% or higher.

8 have shown yes in the lead (only 3 in the past year)

 

I'm not quite clear how you see that as a downwards drift. 

 

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-the-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-a#table

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

FFS, do you think I'm as green as the oil-burning Scottish Greens are not?

Hmmm I'm sure I called you out on this before & you accepted your error.

" We need a planned and managed transition away from fossil fuels to sustainable energy under democratic control which provides energy security, job security and faces up to the realities of climate change. "

https://greens.scot/scotland-can/ban-fracking-once-and-for-all

[LJS]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Hmmm I'm sure I called you out on this before & you accepted your error.

" We need a planned and managed transition away from fossil fuels to sustainable energy under democratic control which provides energy security, job security and faces up to the realities of climate change. "

https://greens.scot/scotland-can/ban-fracking-once-and-for-all

 Oh & here's Patrick Harvie saying it on the beeb

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

On 23/04/2016 at 8:27 AM, eFestivals said:

I see the SNP have launched their manifesto.

And I see that the party who once promised to fight austerity now promise to implement cuts.

And the party that once claimed hope over fear has stopped hoping that the rich might pay higher taxes and now fears that rich Scots will be disloyal to Scotland.

It's funny how the world turns.

 

On 23/04/2016 at 9:44 AM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It looks from the polls that hope still rules over fear up here. 

Only you were continuously mocking with no cuts Eva but now it's snp bad? 

We all said rich brit nats might flea and while the snp and greens want to increase taxes your team are raging and want tax cuts. 

Take a look at the polls :-)

Snp and greens for me. The tories are picking up the unionist vote.

 

On 24/04/2016 at 8:23 AM, eFestivals said:

Yes, you label yourself the good guys, and not worry about any of the facts.:lol:

Awkward facts like, perhaps, the last 12 months has seen a shrinking in the support for indy rather than growth. Not much shrinkage, true, but shrinkage all the same.

And awkward facts such as 23% of indy supporters still believing that the UK rips off Scotland, rather than gifting it huge sums each and every year.

 

I was mocking LJS and feral with that, not the SNP.

With such low levels of understanding for the most obvious of things, is it any wonder you support indy on the basis of impossible outcomes?

 

I'm loving your 'civic nationalism' here comfy. There's clearly no hatred of the English, oh no.

No true Scot could possibly object to higher taxes. It's only those hated English (sorry, BritNats) who do. 

 

I have.

Support for indie is falling. What's that about independence being inevitable?

The SNP have postponed idyref2 forever, or haven't you been listening? The '60% for a year' thing is never going to happen.

It's another carrot for the rabid, and you're happy to chew.

 

I love how the self-proclaimed left-leaners in Scotland are against the left-wing ideal of taxation and redistribution and support the specifically-chosen austerity of the SNP, and are desprately hoping that the tories become Scotland's 2nd party, while wanting to drive Scotland's poorest into a far-worse poverty.

While the SNP announce tory school policy for Scotland as the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce tory child care policy for Scotland while the snippers cheer, and while the SNP announce a £500m real terms increase in funding for the NHS for Scotland while the snippers cheer ... at the SNP not awarding all of the new money being sent from England to fund the SNHS towards the SNHS.

It looks to me like the SNP are picking up the tory vote, what with a much bigger list of tory policies than anything left-leaning.

Above is our exchange in full. Your attempts to put words in my mouth are pathetic and mildly offence. I`m trying to not take things too seriously as it`s only the internet 

You mentioned rich scots in your first post - see above.

You mentioned hatred of the English and Hated English in your second post - see above.

In my post I neither mentioned Scottish or English but was responding directly to your post in which you referred to rich Scots being disloyal to Scotland.

As you also say above " there is clearly no hatred of the english here " but then you insert a wee smiley - as you do. You then go on to make more posts claiming things I never said and accusing me of racism over our exchange - see above.

You played the race card before I remember. We were having a blether about me being supportive of the SNP policy also supported by Labour that sees further education being covered by my tax coin and free to the students. You claimed that I was supporting a racist policy and no doubt I felt slightly offended but was concious that it was only the internet and perhaps thought you were an idiot.

I had made the point before about folk skipping out of paying their taxes ( rich folk in tax avoidance shocker ). The post I quoted from myself was from 1/4 and you accused me of backtracking ?

I didn`t say rich this time as I assumed that was obvious as I was responding to your claim about rich scots and tax - see above quotes.

You also claim above that it looks like the SNP are picking up the Tory vote. Not sure how you worked that out.

 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

This part is just silly. You are referring to me saying that some rich folks here would flea over the border should they be asked to pay more. A point you have already conceded. I was clearly referring to rich Scottish folks yet you chose to make it about hatred of English. For the record, I was referring to rich Scots ( obviously ) and would add that I don`t " hate " them, just accept that some of them would move their finances over the road to keep more of their wealth for themselves instead of paying more tax. your determination to make this about hatred is quite revealing in my opinion. I don`t hate England or English folk. I have no idea why you are uncomfortable with this.

12 hours ago, eFestivals said:

what's fucking silly is your lying revisionism.

You didn't say "rich folks", you said "BritNats" - suggesting that No True Scot would object to higher taxes.

And that's the end of the 'civic nationalism' line for you personally. All True Scots support indie, and only traitors and quislings don't - is the line you gave.

I haven`t been able to provide a " normal " quote here as I replied to your post by typing within it - in purple but I have lifted it word for word.

As you may remember you had talked about rich scots being disloyal - see my post a minute ago and I quoted myself from earlier in the month specifically saying rich folk. I conceded earlier that I did not in fact say rich folks.

You then completely invent some utter garbage that I have never and would never have said. Your on a roll it would seem 

Edit : I also take a moment to highlight my lack of hatred of anything English. Quite embarrassing I actually said that but this is what you have reduced me to. I`ll be saying I have English friends next 

Edited April 25, 2016 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

there's No True Scot who'd avoid taxes.

I know that because comfy told me.

If you can't see the racism in that it's because you see very little of the truth of things about Scotland.

 

When someone says No True Scot would avoid taxes, they either need to prove their point or recognise their own racism.

This is you on full make it up mode. Nothing to see here that has any relevance to my views.

[Comfy Bean]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

No success?

You're the man saying that No True Scot would avoid taxes.

You've just given me my success, tho I wish you'd kept your racism to yourself..

 

Boom and job done Neil. You are now saying that you wished I`d kept my racism to myself.

Racism which of course was never and never will be there.

In a new low you also claim this little exchange has given you " success ".

 

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

What has a constitutional political affiliation - which isn't even 'left' and 'right' here, remember - got to do with taxes anyway, of who will pay them and who will avoid them?

 

" And the party that once claimed hope over fear has stopped hoping that the rich might pay higher taxes and now fears that rich Scots will be disloyal to Scotland ".

As you hopefully now realise, I was responding to your own words above. You were specifically talking about taxes. Now you are asking what my response had to do with taxes..........but I suspect you knew that all along 

Edited April 25, 2016 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

We previously discussed nationalism on the gen news thread. At the time I referenced me being called a nationalist and asked Neil if he considered himself a british nationalist. I said that they were all just names tags  ( i repeated that earlier ) and posted the attached link which offers a take on nationalism and our indy ref. I thought it made a lot of sense and this is now the 4th time I have linked to it on these boards.

I have also stated many many times that I don`t really go in for being wrapped in a flag etc but I have been accused of it many times by Neil. Quite often on here we get raving nationalists but I have always taken that in the spirit it was intended 

Today just came across ( to me ) as being something more sinister hence the above boreathon of replies 

 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

[LJS]

18 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

We previously discussed nationalism on the gen news thread. At the time I referenced me being called a nationalist and asked Neil if he considered himself a british nationalist. I said that they were all just names tags  ( i repeated that earlier ) and posted the attached link which offers a take on nationalism and our indy ref. I thought it made a lot of sense and this is now the 4th time I have linked to it on these boards.

I have also stated many many times that I don`t really go in for being wrapped in a flag etc but I have been accused of it many times by Neil. Quite often on here we get raving nationalists but I have always taken that in the spirit it was intended 

Today just came across ( to me ) as being something more sinister hence the above boreathon of replies 

 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

Hey comfy. I don't know if it was sinister - although, I guess along with you, being accused of being racist is something I find hard to take.  Personally, I think it was more desperate than sinister. And desperate it undoubtedly was. As you so wisely pointed out such desperation is pretty much a guaranteed sign of someone losing the argument.

 

Rock on.

 

 

I was listening to the news the other day
I heard a fat politician who had the nerve to say
He was proud to be Scottish, by the way
With the glories of our past to remember
"Here's tae us, wha's like us", listen to the cry
No surrender to the truth and here's the reason why
The power and the glory's just another bloody lie
They use to keep us all in line

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Well, Neil let's have look at what Comfy posted...

" We all said rich brit nats might flea..." 

No "only" no asterisks, no mention of England. 

When it's the only thing he's mentioned, the 'only' is always there.

And there's no reason why he suddenly changed it to 'rich folks', of course.

He's realised his 'error', as is clear by the sudden change of phrase and his attempt to whitewash his use of 'brit nats' by pretending he said 'rich folks'.

And you are pretending there's been no 'error' at all, and are pretending there was something meaningful and relevant in his suggestion that only 'brit nats' would avoid Scottish higher taxes.

You can play stupid if you like. The rest of us don't have a handful of free passes, for racism or anything else.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

We previously discussed nationalism on the gen news thread. At the time I referenced me being called a nationalist and asked Neil if he considered himself a british nationalist. I said that they were all just names tags  ( i repeated that earlier ) and posted the attached link which offers a take on nationalism and our indy ref. I thought it made a lot of sense and this is now the 4th time I have linked to it on these boards.

I have also stated many many times that I don`t really go in for being wrapped in a flag etc but I have been accused of it many times by Neil. Quite often on here we get raving nationalists but I have always taken that in the spirit it was intended 

Today just came across ( to me ) as being something more sinister hence the above boreathon of replies 

 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

yes, in the small-minds the terminally dim, there is only nationalism.

 

[LJS]

Today's starting well. Neil chooses to ignore the bit where he is proved wrong on support for Indy and the oil guzzling greens. He equally chooses to ignore the fact that both comfy & I shall be using the vote we have that actually counts to vote  for a party with more radical policies than Labour. 

He chooses to concentrate entirely on one post from Comfy about folk potentially leaving Scotland to avoid higher taxes. And he doesn't even want to talk about that...he *only* wants to talk about one word which he & *only* he believes demonstrates *only* comfy is a racist... Oops putting the word *only* in there. *only* went & changed the meaning.

*only* Neil could be so obsessed.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by LJS

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

Today's starting well. He chooses to ignore.....

... while you still haven't answered the question I asked of you (twice previously, this is the third time), about what you think comfy was getting at when he said *only* 'brit nats' would try to avoid any higher Scottish taxes.

Is your own avoidance not avoidance, then?

That's twice you've avoided answering it, and twice you've tried to deflect the conversation onto other things.

I wonder why.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

... while you still haven't answered the question I asked of you (twice previously, this is the third time), about what you think comfy was getting at when he said *only* 'brit nats' would try to avoid any higher Scottish taxes.

Is your own avoidance not avoidance, then?

That's twice you've avoided answering it, and twice you've tried to deflect the conversation onto other things.

I wonder why.

 

I'm sorry if I made things difficult for your tiny little brain but you may have had to read two posts to get my full interpretation of Comfy's comment...

So I said

" folk potentially leaving Scotland to avoid higher taxes. "

& I said...

"I guess if you have just voted for Scottish Independence you might be a wee bit more inclined to stay put & shell out a few quid more on tax?"

Hope that's cleared it up for you.

 

I can also tell you what he didn't mean. He didn't mean - the English are a bunch of dirty selfish tax-dodging bastards

 

I *only* hope this has been helpful

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm sorry if I made things difficult for your tiny little brain but you may have had to read two posts to get my full interpretation of Comfy's comment...

So I said

" folk potentially leaving Scotland to avoid higher taxes. "

& I said...

"I guess if you have just voted for Scottish Independence you might be a wee bit more inclined to stay put & shell out a few quid more on tax?"

Hope that's cleared it up for you.

 

I can also tell you what he didn't mean. He didn't mean - the English are a bunch of dirty selfish tax-dodging bastards

 

I *only* hope this has been helpful

Those indy people are about to vote in support of not-higher taxes, so you cannot reasonably claim indy supporters as having any different attitudes towards taxes as any other grouping you can think of that contains half of the population.

But more to the point, what has a view towards a state's construction got to do with anyone's attitudes towards taxes? It just doesn't.

So you still haven't answered it. You've throw in a few irrelevances and hoped I'm stupid enough to buy it.

C'mon ... you know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. An association between a constitutional view and taxes is for pejorative reasons.

And the labelling of them as 'Brits' is about making them 'not Scottish'.

As you should know by now, my objection to indy is fuck all to do with anything nationalist, and is about not allowing the liars to drag Scotland's poor into worse poverty for no good reason - because independence cannot deliver the reasons originally given for supporting that independence in the first place.

Comfy's words were about making 'the other' - very specifically stated as 'brits' and not 'scots' - guilty of crimes against Scotland. You must be the dog who's been whistled.

Edited April 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Those indy people are about to vote in support of not-higher taxes, so you cannot reasonably claim indy supporters as having any different attitudes towards taxes as any other grouping you can think of that contains half of the population.

But more to the point, what has a view towards a state's construction got to do with anyone's attitudes towards taxes? It just doesn't.

So you still haven't answered it. You've throw in a few irrelevances and hoped I'm stupid enough to buy it.

C'mon ... you know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. An association between a constitutional view and taxes is for pejorative reasons.

And the labelling of them as 'Brits' is about making them 'not Scottish'.

As you should know by now, my objection to indy is fuck all to do with anything nationalist, and is about not allowing the liars to drag Scotland's poor into poverty for no good reason - because independence cannot deliver the reasons originally given for supporting that independence in the first place.

Comfy's words was about making 'the other' guilty of crimes against Scotland. I can only guess you're the dog that's been whistled.

You asked me to give my interpretation of comfy's post which I have now given twice. You interpret it differently which would be fine if you weren't twisting & "paraphrasing" his words to accuse him of racism. That is unacceptable in my view. 

The case you make above only works if people are voting SNP because of their taxation policy. It seems pretty clear to me that they are not.

It also seems reasonable to suppose that having voted yes you are less likely to up sticks to save a few quid on tax. I have no way of proving this. But even if I am wrong & comfy is wrong, all that makes us is wrong. It does not make us racist.

I could be charitable & believe you misunderstood comfy's intent. In which case all you need to do is apologise for your error & we can move on to discuss green energy policy or support for Indy.

 

...if *only*

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

You asked me to give my interpretation of comfy's post which I have now given twice. You interpret it differently which would be fine if you weren't twisting & "paraphrasing" his words to accuse him of racism. That is unacceptable in my view. 

Nothing has been twisted.

He originally said 'brit nats'. When challenged he said he meant 'rich folks'.

Are the only rich people in Scotland one's who don't support indy? No.
Is there any link between support for indy and a willingness to pay higher taxes? No.

So was there any reason other than a pejorative one for suggesting it would only be not-indy-supporters who'd avoid taxes? No.

But then he didn't say "not-indy-supporting Scots', he deliberately made them not-Scots by making them British, when the SNP are all-of-Scotland in comfy's posts on a regular basis (when he calls criticism of the SNP anti-scottish, which he's done on several occasions), and indy-supporters call out the reverse of what comfy's done as racism.

I can join up the dots. You've been whistled.

But OK, I accept you've answered my question. Your answer is not making you look wise.

Edited April 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, LJS said:

The case you make above only works if people are voting SNP because of their taxation policy. It seems pretty clear to me that they are not.

In your case, you are.

You've said pretty clearly that (with all other policies put aside) you think it's the best taxation offer from the major parties.

The taxation policy you personally have said you want the SNP to commit to, too, is one where you exempt yourself from higher taxes - so there's a disconnect between 'higher taxes' and 'willingness to pay higher taxes' in your own take on things.

I just thought I'd point that out.

[LJS]

35 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nothing has been twisted.

He originally said 'brit nats'. When challenged he said he meant 'rich folks'.

Are the only rich people in Scotland one's who don't support indy? No.
Is there any link between support for indy and a willingness to pay higher taxes? No.

So was there any reason other than a pejorative one for suggesting it would only be not-indy-supporters who'd avoid taxes? No.

But then he didn't say "not-indy-supporting Scots', he deliberately made them not-Scots by making them British, when the SNP are all-of-Scotland in comfy's posts on a regular basis (when he calls criticism of the SNP anti-scottish, which he's done on several occasions), and indy-supporters call out the reverse of what comfy's done as racism.

I can join up the dots. You've been whistled.

But OK, I accept you've answered my question. Your answer is not making you look wise.

Too kind.... Anything to say about green energy policy or support for Indy?

[LJS]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In your case, you are.

You've said pretty clearly that (with all other policies put aside) you think it's the best taxation offer from the major parties.

The taxation policy you personally have said you want the SNP to commit to, too, is one where you exempt yourself from higher taxes - so there's a disconnect between 'higher taxes' and 'willingness to pay higher taxes' in your own take on things.

I just thought I'd point that out.

Thanks, but as usual when you tell me what I think, you are totally wrong.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Thanks, but as usual when you tell me what I think, you are totally wrong.

Your strongest support regarding tax isn't for a 50% highest rate?

You've certainly said many times that no tax rises are better than the LibDem/Labour suggested 1% 'global' rise.

Because - this is how it plays out, which you support - you'd rather have those poor get no extra services to help them out of poverty than have them paying a different rate of tax to the taxes in England.

Wah! It's unfair to pay anything different to England, said without irony from a place that wanted tax powers.
Wah! It's England's fault Scottish taxes aren't higher, said without irony by the supporters of those extra powers
Wah! The traitors might run away, said by the leader of the party of those supporters of those extra powers.

Etc, etc, etc.