The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

well, the Guardian are reporting that Nicola's had sympathetic meetings today, but everyone has said no dice.

Despite LJS's rather laughably ironic plea for open minds given his every attitude to the facts of Scotland's position for the last 2 years, it didn't take a genius to realise that's exactly how it would go.

If Nicola's as good as her words, she'll be coming back today with the list of things Scotland will have to do to join the EU. These will be (in order):-

1. become independent

2. cut cut and cut to get the deficit down to under 3%.

3. wait a few years to have the required operating history.

4. apply to join the EU as a full member with no opt-outs - so including shengen (which means Scotland putting people-borders in place) and the Euro.

5. keep your fingers crossed that the EU might want you.

6. join in 7 years after indy at earliest.

[eFestivals]

So, looks like I'm calling the politics right so far...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980

Just read this too:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/29/scotland-remain-eu-brexit-european-union-scots-england-wales

I laughed - a lot - at the bit that says "Could it [the EU] act in such a way as to dispossess Scots of their acquired rights and EU citizenship", as it just proves how weak the hopes of so-called experts are when they're trying to hold up an unsustainable case to suit their prejudices. People in England have no more or less the same "rights" from the EU yet not a soul is questioning that they'll be revoked.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

So, looks like I'm calling the politics right so far...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980

So, A couple of leading politicians (one of whom probably has a fairly short shelf life) have fired shots across Nicola's bows.

Meanwhile she has met with  European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels,  EU Parliament president Martin Schulz, as well as Gianni Pitella, the leader of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, and former Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, who is now an MEP.

Early days yet - you may have made your (closed) mind up - I haven't - although neither myself or my pal Nic have ever suggested any of this would be easy. I think Nic is doing exactly the right thing - you no doubt think it is some evil Machiavellian plot ( to achieve what, God or Neil only knows). 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Just read this too:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/29/scotland-remain-eu-brexit-european-union-scots-england-wales

I laughed - a lot - at the bit that says "Could it [the EU] act in such a way as to dispossess Scots of their acquired rights and EU citizenship", as it just proves how weak the hopes of so-called experts are when they're trying to hold up an unsustainable case to suit their prejudices. People in England have no more or less the same "rights" from the EU yet not a soul is questioning that they'll be revoked.

 Sionaidh Douglas-Scott is Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford.

 

Neil runs a website.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

So, A couple of leading politicians (one of whom probably has a fairly short shelf life) have fired shots across Nicola's bows.

Meanwhile she has met with  European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels,  EU Parliament president Martin Schulz, as well as Gianni Pitella, the leader of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, and former Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, who is now an MEP.

Early days yet - you may have made your (closed) mind up - I haven't - although neither myself or my pal Nic have ever suggested any of this would be easy. I think Nic is doing exactly the right thing - you no doubt think it is some evil Machiavellian plot ( to achieve what, God or Neil only knows). 

And they've all said...?

Exactly the same thing. No dice, and fully monty after indy.

It's not going to change. In the middle of an EU crisis the EU is not going to open the door to a further crisis and a forever-ongoing one.

 

Quote

 Sionaidh Douglas-Scott is Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford.

 

Neil runs a website.

Neil has noticed no one is saying that UK citizens can't have their EU rights taken away.

Unless Scotland has a special EU status - when it has no EU status at all - the same applies to people who live in Scotland.

If "the EU can't take its citizens rights away" was a valid argument, don't you think it might have surfaced, just a little bit, during the eu ref, instead of being wholly absent?

It's one of the same idiot arguments that was put forwards in 2014. It was patently false then and is patently false now. It has zero legal basis, as all EU 'rights' - which are not rights at all - are inherited via a member state's membership, and the EU is a treaty organisation and not a sovereign body.

I'd blow her away in a court room.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And they've all said...?

Exactly the same thing. No dice, and fully monty after indy.

It's not going to change. In the middle of an EU crisis the EU is not going to open the door to a further crisis and a forever-ongoing one.

 

Neil has noticed no one is saying that UK citizens can't have their EU rights taken away.

Unless Scotland has a special EU status - when it has no EU status at all - the same applies to people who live in Scotland.

If "the EU can't take its citizens rights away" was a valid argument, don't you think it might have surfaced, just a little bit, during the eu ref, instead of being wholly absent?

It's one of the same idiot arguments that was put forwards in 2014. It was patently false then and is patently false now. It has zero legal basis, as all EU 'rights' - which are not rights at all - are inherited via a member state's membership, and the EU is a treaty organisation and not a sovereign body.

I'd blow her away in a court room.

 

 Sionaidh Douglas-Scott is Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford.

 

Neil runs a website.

 

But Neil knows better.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

 Sionaidh Douglas-Scott is Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford.

 

Neil runs a website.

 

But Neil knows better.

I know that there's no such thing as inalienable EU rights.

Do you wish to show me the document which proves otherwise? Cos I can show you - and her - the legal document which proves her wrong.

If a lawyer accepts the law the profession is redundant.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I think its clear LJS that you guys joining the EU is very much in the wishful thinking box at this stage.  Better to focus on this exit deal.

better to not piss off the people who's money you depend on at a time of rising nationalism, you mean.

The last thing anyone needs right now is more nationalism. It's that sort of idiocy that got us here ... but if Scotland wishes to play that, I'm pretty certain it's only a losing game for them.

[LJS]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I know that there's no such thing as inalienable EU rights.

Do you wish to show me the document which proves otherwise? Cos I can show you - and her - the legal document which proves her wrong.

If a lawyer accepts the law the profession is redundant.

Sorry Neil, whilst I accept, as I did during the original indyref, that there are differing views and a lack of certainly in many areas, I just have a sneaking suspicion that the Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford, may be more knowledgeable in this area than you.

 

[LJS]

56 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I think its clear LJS that you guys joining the EU is very much in the wishful thinking box at this stage.  Better to focus on this exit deal.

My country voted by a large majority to remain in the EU. My government has a clear mandate, if need be, to hold a further referendum on Independence in these circumstances. Currently our First Minister advised by a panel of experts is exploring what options are available supported unopposed by the Scottish Parliament. 

I'm happy with the wishful thinking but thanks for the advice, Barry.

p.s. congratulations on your reputation moving out the red. Say something nice & i'll make it green.

Edited June 29, 2016 by LJS

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I kind of get the feeling you are loving we are coming out of the EU just to serve your own selfish wants....

Absolutely not. I would far prefer Scotland to be independent within the EU along with our friends in the rest of the UK. But that option appears to be unavailable.

 

on another note Neil asked what had changed since 2014. Here is something very significant (in my view) that has changed

 

[lost]

Noticed two opinions on this subject today:

JP Morgan are saying there will be a Scottish pound in between Scotland leaving Sterling and joining the euro if they go for indy.

Alistair Darling thinks the 3 issues of the euro being as unpopular in Scotland as England, A border/checkpoint with England once Scotland rejoins and the massive drop in oil revenues will be enough for a leave vote to fail again.

[Comfy Bean]

Another Labour convert to Indy.........

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358674-former-scottish-labour-chair-likely-to-back-independence/

[LJS]

Hey Stash

 

instead of down voting everyone, what about giving us your wisdom?

 

..dick

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Noticed two opinions on this subject today:

JP Morgan are saying there will be a Scottish pound in between Scotland leaving Sterling and joining the euro if they go for indy.

Alistair Darling thinks the 3 issues of the euro being as unpopular in Scotland as England, A border/checkpoint with England once Scotland rejoins and the massive drop in oil revenues will be enough for a leave vote to fail again.

i can't be bothered going & checking but i'm pretty sure JP Morgan (whose opinion I care not a hoot for) said they expected Scotland would go for Independence - no ifs.

 And Alistair (nobody's) Darling, a man who's opinion I value less than JP Morgan's, has risen from the grave to insult our intelligence yet again. 

Now, Lost, do you have any news?

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Sorry Neil, whilst I accept, as I did during the original indyref, that there are differing views and a lack of certainly in many areas, I just have a sneaking suspicion that the Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary, University of London, and formerly professor of European and Human Rights Law, Lady Margaret Hall, University of Oxford, may be more knowledgeable in this area than you.

So we're leaving the EU and keeping all our rights because it would be illegal for anything different to happen....? :lol:

Read the Lisbon Treaty - the only treaty that exists for the UK's relationship with the EU - and then read The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties and tell me how treaties can't be revoked.

Fuck me, there really is no end to your utter stupidity or the idiocy you'll buy into if it suits your prejudices.

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So we're leaving the EU and keeping all our rights because it would be illegal for anything different to happen....?

 

Have I said that? As I am getting bored telling you, I have no idea what will happen.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

My country voted by a large majority to remain in the EU.

It also voted by a similar majority - which you would never ever describe as large (oh look, it's that duplicity again) - to remain in the UK and abide by UK decisions, but in the minds of the prejudicial only their wants count. :lol:

 

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Absolutely not. I would far prefer Scotland to be independent within the EU along with our friends in the rest of the UK. But that option appears to be unavailable.

 

on another note Neil asked what had changed since 2014. Here is something very significant (in my view) that has changed

 

 

so Scotland didn't love the EU two years ago....? :lol:

Why do you think anything has changed? "Politicans want the best for their electorate" is a very standard thing.

Now, where's the £10bn? Without it, all of this is dust.

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, lost said:

Noticed two opinions on this subject today:

JP Morgan are saying there will be a Scottish pound in between Scotland leaving Sterling and joining the euro if they go for indy.

Alistair Darling thinks the 3 issues of the euro being as unpopular in Scotland as England, A border/checkpoint with England once Scotland rejoins and the massive drop in oil revenues will be enough for a leave vote to fail again.

Yep.

Scotland has all the same issues that were too dire in 2014 to be acceptable, with added new problems.

Not only that, Scotland would now also have to say "you know those things we took the piss out of you about 2 years ago because they were so fucking ridiculous? Well, now we think they're the best thing in the world".

As I've said for 2 years now, within a decade of 2014 the SNP and all their wonderful braindeaders will be condemning the EU as the most shit thing in the world. We're only a few months from the start of the growth of that.

There's no turntable the duplicitous won't happily stand on to proclaim their unalterable principles.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Another Labour convert to Indy.........

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358674-former-scottish-labour-chair-likely-to-back-independence/

people are only converted when there's something to decide over.

Being prepared to support indy to keep EU membership is not the only consideration.

But I'm pleased to hear you've accepted the financial reality of spending cuts to Scotland of twice as great as the tories have made. It means you're now free to pursue your dream of poverty for you and a shit life for your kids.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, LJS said:

Have I said that? As I am getting bored telling you, I have no idea what will happen.

that's the opinion you're backing, because that's what the professor who you say must be right is saying.

"What will happen" is not what that professor said, she's not talking deals.

She's made a statement claiming a legal basis for it being impossible to remove EU 'rights'. It's utter utter bollocks. Treaty law is treaty law, it applies only so long as the treaty it comes from applies. I've read the Vienna Convention. Have you?

Have you stopped for a moment to consider her lack of article commission if that article contained the truth? "Scotland hasn't got a hope" is not an interesting read, and neither does it keep the writer's kind employed.

Edited June 30, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's the opinion you're backing, because that's what the professor who you say must be right is saying.

"What will happen" is not what that professor said, she's not talking deals.

She's made a statement claiming a legal basis for it being impossible to remove EU 'rights'. It's utter utter bollocks. Treaty law is treaty law, it applies only so long as the treaty it comes from applies. I've read the Vienna Convention. Have you?

Have you stopped for a moment to consider her lack of article commission if that article contained the truth? "Scotland hasn't got a hope" is not an interesting read, and neither does it keep the writer's kind employed.

I si.ply give her opinion more weight than yours, prof. I fully accept other opinion are available. 

Open mind, neil, open mind.

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

I si.ply give her opinion more weight than yours, prof. I fully accept other opinion are available. 

Open mind, neil, open mind.

Moron land LJS, moron land.

From a legal standpoint, every law or contract is up for dispute until a judge has made a ruling. That's the sum total of her claimed "legal basis", that no judge has made a ruling around this particular thing to set a precedent.

Now, can your open mind find a lawyer who will dispute the legality of the Vienna Convention before a judge, and the money to pursue the case? Your esteemed professor hopes so, cos she;'s touting for the business if you're mug enough.

Find your lawyer, and pay for the case. And lose.

Or do you think that the UK cannot legally leave the EU, ever? Because ultimately that's what you're saying if you believe EU 'rights' cannot be removed.

If it's true, why did Nicolarse waste her time in Brussells yesterday when Scotland cannot be removed from the EU? If it's true, there is no Scottish sovereignty or independence to be had, because Scotland is forever wedded to both the UK and the EU because treaties cannot be cancelled.

Etc, etc, etc.

FFS. This is your best one ever. There's no bullshit you won't grasp to continue your delusions.

Edited June 30, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

The charade continues....

Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.

In other words...

What do we want? Independence.

When do we want it? Only If the EU says they'll be our pretend mummy, our security blanket

Because that's how much those independently minded Scots believe in themselves.

[eFestivals]

Who has the least bottle, Boris or Sturgeon....?

According to this:-
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-hold-second-independence-8313741#pxIT7ay2y9fDBoDL.97

(OK, OK, it might not be true ... but it also might be).

... Sturgeon plans "an independence referendum" but she doesn't really. It's going to be a con, and you're going to be the suckers.

Supposedly you won't be asked if Scotland should be independent, but instead you'll be asked the impossible. "Voters are likely to be asked whether we should continue as an EU member – or leave with the rest of the UK when Brexit talks are over."

It's laughable if that's what she does. A question like that is no mandate for indy, even tho we're all intelligent enough here to recognise the inference. That's not a legitimate question, it's a tactic, a play onto someone.

Take your pick who the play is on. Daft snippers? Very definitely that. A new negotiating position with the UK? Perhaps. A last attempt to have the EU open its arms (instead of answer Sturgeon's question for her, that there's no Scottish membership to be continued)? Very likely.

I hope this story is true, and she's really planning to use that question ... because the shit will come tumbling down on her before the vote is made. The EU *will* tell her there's nothing to continue, even the snippers aren't daft enough to fall for it (or are you...? ) which only leaves a completely fucked-up negotiating position with the UK where the cry of "we want our money back" impacts into Scottish budgets. (But hey, nationalism gets what nationalism wants )

It would also make clear just how much she knows that with a legitimate question a no would be a disaster for the SNP and a yes would be a disaster for Scotland.