The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Who has the least bottle, Boris or Sturgeon....?

According to this:-
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-hold-second-independence-8313741#pxIT7ay2y9fDBoDL.97

(OK, OK, it might not be true ... but it also might be).

... Sturgeon plans "an independence referendum" but she doesn't really. It's going to be a con, and you're going to be the suckers.

Supposedly you won't be asked if Scotland should be independent, but instead you'll be asked the impossible. "Voters are likely to be asked whether we should continue as an EU member – or leave with the rest of the UK when Brexit talks are over."

It's laughable if that's what she does. A question like that is no mandate for indy, even tho we're all intelligent enough here to recognise the inference. That's not a legitimate question, it's a tactic, a play onto someone.

Take your pick who the play is on. Daft snippers? Very definitely that. A new negotiating position with the UK? Perhaps. A last attempt to have the EU open its arms (instead of answer Sturgeon's question for her, that there's no Scottish membership to be continued)? Very likely.

I hope this story is true, and she's really planning to use that question ... because the shit will come tumbling down on her before the vote is made. The EU *will* tell her there's nothing to continue, even the snippers aren't daft enough to fall for it (or are you...? ) which only leaves a completely fucked-up negotiating position with the UK where the cry of "we want our money back" impacts into Scottish budgets. (But hey, nationalism gets what nationalism wants )

It would also make clear just how much she knows that with a legitimate question a no would be a disaster for the SNP and a yes would be a disaster for Scotland.

Or alternatively Neil's constant claims that we won't have another referendum might just have been wrong.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

Or alternatively Neil's constant claims that we won't have another referendum might just have been wrong.

If that's the question asked, it ain't no indy referendum.

That aside, I don't believe I've said (except perhaps via careless typing) that you won't be getting one, tho I've definitely often said that Sturgeon will do everything she can to avoid one.

Which is exactly what she would be doing if the question is as that article says. 

---

There's some absolutely fabulous lack of logic going on too.... you've spent the last few weeks saying (I'm paraphrasing ) how it would be madness for the UK to jump off the comparatively small economic cliff that is leaving the EU,

And now you say (still paraphrasing ) "because you've done that mental thing, you've proven that mental things can be done so now we're going to do something even more mental, maybe ten times more mental ... because we're the clever ones that didn't do the mental thing".

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Just wondering if the ones pushing for Scotland to be independent are at all arsed about the pain they will cause everyone when they steal our British identity.

The last week as been a real eye opener in how painful it is when a group of people come along and fuck around with your very identity and citizenship and remove it.  

Having my European citizenship and identity stolen from me this week has been painful.  To screams of people "getting their country back" I lost mine...  To have my British identity and citizenship to be stolen in the future would be a similar painful experience.

Just wondering if you get a fuck about taking away these things from people ?   

Just thought it was another prospective that the nationalists don't want to think about it seems.

Not quite sure what you are on about Barry. We don't want your British identity. Most of us feel we already have an identity & it's not British. 

We would be quite happy , however, to steal your furniture in Strasbourg.

 

[LJS]

34 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

You and other nationalistic self serving w*nkers don't know what I mean because all you see is your Scottish identity.  You are one step up from the BNP and about parity with UKIP.

Barry, I am genuinely sorry that you & many of your fellow countrypersons have had your "European citizenship and identity stolen" from you. 

I am genuinely sorry that, unlike the residents of Scotland, you have no obvious way of reversing this (not that I'm suggesting there is an easy or straightforward way for Scotland - but there is a possibility)

If you want to blame this situation on me, the Scots, or nationalistic self serving w*nkers, that's up to you. It certainly won't achieve anything other than perhaps making you feel better for a few minutes.

I would suggest after some reflection, you will agree the blame for your predicament lies elsewhere.

Remember Barry, you'll always be welcome in Scotland although i'd drop the "nationalistic self serving w*nkers" before you move up.

 

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Who has the least bottle, Boris or Sturgeon....?

According to this:-
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-hold-second-independence-8313741#pxIT7ay2y9fDBoDL.97

(OK, OK, it might not be true ... but it also might be).

... Sturgeon plans "an independence referendum" but she doesn't really. It's going to be a con, and you're going to be the suckers.

Supposedly you won't be asked if Scotland should be independent, but instead you'll be asked the impossible. "Voters are likely to be asked whether we should continue as an EU member – or leave with the rest of the UK when Brexit talks are over."

It's laughable if that's what she does. A question like that is no mandate for indy, even tho we're all intelligent enough here to recognise the inference. That's not a legitimate question, it's a tactic, a play onto someone.

Take your pick who the play is on. Daft snippers? Very definitely that. A new negotiating position with the UK? Perhaps. A last attempt to have the EU open its arms (instead of answer Sturgeon's question for her, that there's no Scottish membership to be continued)? Very likely.

I hope this story is true, and she's really planning to use that question ... because the shit will come tumbling down on her before the vote is made. The EU *will* tell her there's nothing to continue, even the snippers aren't daft enough to fall for it (or are you...? ) which only leaves a completely fucked-up negotiating position with the UK where the cry of "we want our money back" impacts into Scottish budgets. (But hey, nationalism gets what nationalism wants )

It would also make clear just how much she knows that with a legitimate question a no would be a disaster for the SNP and a yes would be a disaster for Scotland.

I think there is precisely no chance of the question as quoted being accepted, assuming we are going for a legitimate referendum agreed with Westminster. 

Quote

 

The choice for Scotland in the autumn of 2014 is to be or not to be an independent country.

Simple question? Some observers of the referendum debate would say it is not.

Both sides agreed last year that the Electoral Commission should scrutinise the SNP government's preferred "yes/no" question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

The elections watchdog tweaked those words and reported that the question should be: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

The commission said the question must be presented clearly, simply and neutrally.

The Scottish government agreed to changing the question when the commission reported its findings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20512743

 

 

[russycarps]

I feel more solidarity with my Scottish comrades than ever before, considering we were the virtually the only ones to vote remain.

I mentioned to my girlfriend that we should sell our London hovel and open up a tea shop in the highlands, but she gave me short shrift, reminding me of the bad experience we had with midges in the past

I do think that now is not the time for talk of Scottish independence (the poor would still be utterly fucked), but I can't really blame st nicola for her current manoeuvring.

Edited June 30, 2016 by russycarps

[LJS]

25 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

My point is...  You stand ready to hurt some of your friends, family and countryman the same way that mine have just hurt me.  

Sorry Barry, I do not want to hurt anyone.

25 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

You are trying to take something away from them and giving yourself something you already have.

Just come to realise this week how stealing someones identity like this actually quite shit.  Just makes me think what a c**tish thing it is to do.  Maybe you need to think about it a bit more.  Its quite a selfish act.

I understand how you feel - I first voted in a general election in 1979, 37 years ago. For 24 of these years I have been ruled by governments my country didn't elect. Its shit.

[Comfy Bean]

24 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I feel more solidarity with my Scottish comrades than ever before, considering we were the virtually the only ones to vote remain.

I mentioned to my girlfriend that we should sell our London hovel and open up a tea shop in the highlands, but she gave me short shrift, reminding me of the bad experience we had with midges in the past

I do think that now is not the time for talk of Scottish independence (the poor would still be utterly fucked), but I can't really blame st nicola for her current manoeuvring.

Avon. Skin so soft.

I'm glad you have recognised exactly what nic is doing, manoeuvring is spot on. As our first minister she has a responsibility to be taking the swift action she has.

The no voters who voted remain will also see the length she is going to. If or when she fails she can say that she tried everything else but now there is only one choice. Ruthy will struggle to argue as she has always been a massive fan of Scotland in the eu. England voting out totally wrong footed her and the majority of us.

Seems certain labour up here will have msps campaigning for indy should we end up with another ref. Probably the libs as well and defo the greens.

The conservative and unionist party against the rest could be where it's at.

If your tea room needs IT support then Baz might be heading up.

Just remember, all welcome and bring the Avon skin so soft :-)

[LJS]

Quote

  Et si Edimbourg devenait la grande place financière européenne à la place de la City ?
En savoir plus sur http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/06/30/et-si-edimbourg-devenait-la-grande-place-financiere-europeenne-a-la-place-de-la-city

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/06/30/et-si-edimbourg-devenait-la-grande-place-financiere-europeenne-a-la-place-de-la-city_4961399_3234.html

 

 

[micawber]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/06/30/et-si-edimbourg-devenait-la-grande-place-financiere-europeenne-a-la-place-de-la-city_4961399_3234.html

 

 

LOL

[Comfy Bean]

Step1 Get a mandate from the scottish parliament giving some hope to the 62 %. Added bonus Ruth abstains after a lifetime championing Scotland in the eu. 

Step 2 sprint to Brussels with various tv crews in tow and meet with some important looking eu types who cuddle you. Added bonus some jock gets a standing ovation while telling the eu parliament that Scotland didn't let them down.... in front of the tv crews. 

Not bad in less than a week and further added bonus of supportive noises from our labour leader who joined in with attacking Ruth [ better late than never ].

Step 3 ????? Scotland make moves to join the European Economic Area as freedom of movement isn't an issue. Added bonus that it makes us undeniably different politically to the rest of the Great Kingdom which eventually makes Step 4 inevitable.....the dream will never die :-)

All of this is just a thought as no-one really has an idea of how all this madness will end. I do feel though that independence is moving closer for an outward looking Scotland. For over a decade the trend in the polls has been heading towards this and the yoof are massively in favour. 

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Step1 Get a mandate from the scottish parliament giving some hope to the 62 %. Added bonus Ruth abstains after a lifetime championing Scotland in the eu. 

Step 2 sprint to Brussels with various tv crews in tow and meet with some important looking eu types who cuddle you. Added bonus some jock gets a standing ovation while telling the eu parliament that Scotland didn't let them down.... in front of the tv crews. 

Not bad in less than a week and further added bonus of supportive noises from our labour leader who joined in with attacking Ruth [ better late than never ].

Step 3 ????? Scotland make moves to join the European Economic Area as freedom of movement isn't an issue. Added bonus that it makes us undeniably different politically to the rest of the Great Kingdom which eventually makes Step 4 inevitable.....the dream will never die :-)

All of this is just a thought as no-one really has an idea of how all this madness will end. I do feel though that independence is moving closer for an outward looking Scotland. For over a decade the trend in the polls has been heading towards this and the yoof are massively in favour. 

inspiring stuff comfy & before the $10Bn man turns up, i did a wee sum.

You may remember that the remain campaign told us if we left the EU we would be £3400 worse of per head. I said this was scaremongering but the $10Bn man assured me it was kosher. So there are roughly 5million of us in Scotland & we'll each be £3400 worse of if we leave the EU which we will if we stick with the UK. 

So 5million times £3400 equals £17bn.

So, even if we accept the $10Bn man's figures we will be less worse off as an independent country.

 

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Avon. Skin so soft.

I'm glad you have recognised exactly what nic is doing, manoeuvring is spot on. As our first minister she has a responsibility to be taking the swift action she has.

The no voters who voted remain will also see the length she is going to. If or when she fails she can say that she tried everything else but now there is only one choice. Ruthy will struggle to argue as she has always been a massive fan of Scotland in the eu. England voting out totally wrong footed her and the majority of us.

Seems certain labour up here will have msps campaigning for indy should we end up with another ref. Probably the libs as well and defo the greens.

The conservative and unionist party against the rest could be where it's at.

If your tea room needs IT support then Baz might be heading up.

Just remember, all welcome and bring the Avon skin so soft :-)

Yep, while the other political parties are falling apart she is absolutely right to try and act and look like a states(wo)man. And I think she's achieved that. The fact it's all for nothing is irrelevant.

But I do think she'd be crackers to push for a referendum for a few years yet There's no need to be impatient now. The UK is going to slowly fuck itself. You all just need to bide your time.

Of course, if the UK somehow comes out of all this stronger, indy is off the table for a generation. But what are the chances of that? So why rush?

 

 

[LJS]

10 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Yep, while the other political parties are falling apart she is absolutely right to try and act and look like a states(wo)man. And I think she's achieved that. The fact it's all for nothing is irrelevant.

But I do think she'd be crackers to push for a referendum for a few years yet There's no need to be impatient now. The UK is going to slowly fuck itself. You all just need to bide your time.

Of course, if the UK somehow comes out of all this stronger, indy is off the table for a generation. But what are the chances of that? So why rush?

 

 

why should we stay on a sinking ship?

[LJS]

 

Quote

 

Ex-Nasdaq traders bid to launch new stock exchange in Scotland by 2017

LANS have been unveiled to launch a new independent stock exchange in Scotland, more than 40 years after the country's last trading floor closed down.

Scotex will be based in Edinburgh, the UK's second largest centre for financial servicesand the fourth largest in Europe, but trading will be done via an electronic exchange.

The venture is understood to be the brainchild of a team of former Nasdaq traders, a US stock exchange and the second largest in the world. It will be set up in collaboration with Scots investors.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14591154.Ex_Nasdaq_traders_bid_to_launch_new_stock_exchange_in_Scotland_by_2017/?ref=twtrec

 

Look, I'm not saying this will happen. I'm not saying its good. Buy i'm saying this is different from 2014.

[Comfy Bean]

5 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Yep, while the other political parties are falling apart she is absolutely right to try and act and look like a states(wo)man. And I think she's achieved that. The fact it's all for nothing is irrelevant.

But I do think she'd be crackers to push for a referendum for a few years yet There's no need to be impatient now. The UK is going to slowly fuck itself. You all just need to bide your time.

Of course, if the UK somehow comes out of all this stronger, indy is off the table for a generation. But what are the chances of that? So why rush?

 

 

Aye fair points I think.

I didn't think another ref was on for around a decade. I'm still stunned we're heading out :-(

I'm not convinced that a referendum within 2 years is a good move but indy is what the snp want so they will obviously take advantage of what is clearly a material change if they think they have the numbers.

Sturgeon,  Patrick Harvie and atleast soft support from Labour against Ruth who is all over the place with the leave vote might be too good an opportunity to resist. Even the daily record is showing signs of support.

I laughed at Angus Roberton trolling the fuck out of the shambles that is Westminster with his banter about 2nd biggest party plus we still have the king troll waiting in the wings :-)

 

 

 

[russycarps]

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

why should we stay on a sinking ship?

But right now both the UK and the eu are sinking ships. Did you miss the eu getting downgraded by standard & poor's as well as the UK?

Europe is a mess right now, the uk is a mess and Scotland is still financially in deep shit.

Everything's fucked!

There is no escape!

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

This is true....

As much as Britain has fucked itself over, its fucked over the EU as well...   There is going to be a lot of resentment I fear aimed at the UK in the coming years.

Hence Sturgeon in Brussels this week? 

I think your right about resentment though. We have turned on people :-(

Edited June 30, 2016 by comfortablynumb1910

[russycarps]

It's ok, India and China will save us!

I mean it's not like the raj or the Opium war ever happened.

Neither country has forgiven or forgotten.

We are the most hated country on the planet. Bar maybe Israel

 

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Just wondering if the ones pushing for Scotland to be independent are at all arsed about the pain they will cause everyone when they steal our British identity.

The last week as been a real eye opener in how painful it is when a group of people come along and fuck around with your very identity and citizenship and remove it.  

Having my European citizenship and identity stolen from me this week has been painful.  To screams of people "getting their country back" I lost mine...  To have my British identity and citizenship to be stolen in the future would be a similar painful experience.

Just wondering if you get a fuck about taking away these things from people ?   

Just thought it was another prospective that the nationalists don't want to think about it seems.

Identity is self-absorbed meaningless bollocks.

Just get on with your life, FFS.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I'm glad you have recognised exactly what nic is doing, manoeuvring is spot on. As our first minister she has a responsibility to be taking the swift action she has.

PMSL.

It's not manoeuvres, it's her playing the brain dead. She knows her trips to Brussels are meaningless, but she also knows she needs to play you for a fool.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/06/30/et-si-edimbourg-devenait-la-grande-place-financiere-europeenne-a-la-place-de-la-city_4961399_3234.html

 

 

I'm loving how the mainstream media is currently the indisputable truth to snipppers.

That's yet another u-turn. The u-turn where the snippers say "we hate the EU" is still down the path and I can't wait.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Step1 Get a mandate from the scottish parliament giving some hope to the 62 %. Added bonus Ruth abstains after a lifetime championing Scotland in the eu. 

Step 2 sprint to Brussels with various tv crews in tow and meet with some important looking eu types who cuddle you. Added bonus some jock gets a standing ovation while telling the eu parliament that Scotland didn't let them down.... in front of the tv crews. 

Not bad in less than a week and further added bonus of supportive noises from our labour leader who joined in with attacking Ruth [ better late than never ].

Step 3 ????? Scotland make moves to join the European Economic Area as freedom of movement isn't an issue. Added bonus that it makes us undeniably different politically to the rest of the Great Kingdom which eventually makes Step 4 inevitable.....the dream will never die :-)

All of this is just a thought as no-one really has an idea of how all this madness will end. I do feel though that independence is moving closer for an outward looking Scotland. For over a decade the trend in the polls has been heading towards this and the yoof are massively in favour. 

how come you omitted to include the steps where the EU told Nicola to fuck off and come back in 7 years?

It's still the fact-free post-truth world.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

I'm loving how the mainstream media is currently the indisputable truth to snipppers.

That's yet another u-turn. The u-turn where the snippers say "we hate the EU" is still down the path and I can't wait.

The purpose of my post is not to say c"est vrai, it's simply another indication. That things are different from 2014. C"eat tout.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

how come you omitted to include the steps where the EU told Nicola to fuck off and come back in 7 years?

It's still the fact-free post-truth world.

Possibly because the EU has told Nicola no such thing? 

A lot of individuals have said a lot of different things.