The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

You really think that the only reason Scotland returned just the one tory mp is because Scots think the tories take money from them? 

No, not the only reason, it's much more complicated than that .... one of the major reasons is due to no-thought rather than any thought at all, as much of it simply derives from a faked social construct that Scots don't vote tory.
(you were probably still in nappies when that was constructed, perhaps not even born).

But ultimately, it comes from an idea of the tories serving Scotland poorly. Until and including the 1983 election, it was perfectly acceptable for Scots to vote tory. In '79 you lot piled in to support Thatcher because at that time the myth was that Labour were the c**ts.

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Wow. This explains a lot of your posts I suppose. Were back at our age old problem of you claiming to know the costs of everything yet clearly knowing the value of nothing.... In my opinion. 

Why do you think the indyref was lost in 2014, comfy?

If you wish to go along with that line, you  can only end up concluding that Scots are NOT capable of running their own country and do not want to run their own country because they know they're not capable.

You value public services. That level of public services are only possible with English money (or more correctly: money that Scotland doesn't have itself and which comes from England).

You might not wish to accept that, but the smart Scots with working brains know its true. Even Sturgeon knows its true.

And those that don't are the same fact-free expert-rejecting morons as the worst of kippers championing brexit.

Edited July 8, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, not the only reason, it's much more complicated than that .... one of the major reasons is due to no-thought rather than any thought at all, as much of it simply derives from a faked social construct that Scots don't vote tory.
(you were probably still in nappies when that was constructed, perhaps not even born).

But ultimately, it comes from an idea of the tories serving Scotland poorly. Until and including the 1983 election, it was perfectly acceptable for Scots to vote tory. In '79 you lot piled in to support Thatcher because at that time the myth was that Labour were the c**ts.

Why do you think the indyref was lost in 2014, comfy?

If you wish to go along with that line, you  can only end up concluding that Scots are NOT capable of running their own country and do not want to run their own country because they know they're not capable.

You value public services. That level of public services are only possible with English money (or more correctly: money that Scotland doesn't have itself and which comes from England).

You might not wish to accept that, but the smart Scots with working brains know its true. Even Sturgeon knows its true.

And those that don't are the same fact-free expert-rejecting morons as the worst of kippers championing brexit.

English money? 

It's all coming out lol.

As you know I believe that a labour or snp government would be more inclined to look after and invest in our public services and nhs than a tory one in Westminster. I accept your view that this is a moronic thing to believe. 

I'll have to leave the rest of your insults for another day as I'm off to watch some tunes in a field. In fairness,  I will probably leave what's left of the working part of my brain at the gate :-)

[russycarps]

On 7/6/2016 at 6:21 PM, LJS said:

Neil is always accusing me of claiming Scottish exceptionalism.

I usually deny it...this time I am delighted to claim it.

 

 

anyone else think this video was going to end with a thunderous glasgow kiss??

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

English money? 

Yes, English money.

Where do you think the extrra £10Bn a year that Scotland gets - that Sturgeon recently spent months demanding continued - come from?

It doesn't come from Scotland. Sturgeon makes a statement each and every year that it doesn't, just as Salmond made the same statement each and every year.

Does it come from Northern Ireland? Nope, that gets bigger UK subsidies than Scotland gets.

Does it comes from Wales? Nope, Wales gets subsidies, but nothing as big as Scotland despite being far poorer - poverty that Scotland has helped push onto them via Scotland's over-inflated and unfair demands.

Which leaves....?

Yes, some of it is borrowed, but just 1/3rd of it. The other 2/3rds is English money given with generousity to Scotland.

 

Quote

It's all coming out lol.

It comes out each and every year.

In GERS, published by the Scottish Govt who you call liars, to a methodolgy set by the SNP who you are calling liars.

But comfy knows better. It's a good job you've put us all straight.

 

Quote

As you know I believe that a labour or snp government would be more inclined to look after and invest in our public services and nhs than a tory one in Westminster. I accept your view that this is a moronic thing to believe.

something they can only do if they've got more money than is available now.

When you want them to have £10Bn less.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

You really think that the only reason Scotland returned just the one tory mp

 

More Scots voted Tory than labour.

[LJS]

8 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

More Scots voted Tory than labour.

Not in the Westminster election they didn't which since comfy was referencing the one Scottish Tory mp is surely the relevant figure.

And in the Holyrood election, although the Tories got more list votes than Labour, Labour got more constituency votes.

[LJS]

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

No, not the only reason, it's much more complicated than that .... one of the major reasons is due to no-thought rather than any thought at all, as much of it simply derives from a faked social construct that Scots don't vote tory.
(you were probably still in nappies when that was constructed, perhaps not even born).

But ultimately, it comes from an idea of the tories serving Scotland poorly. Until and including the 1983 election, it was perfectly acceptable for Scots to vote tory. In '79 you lot piled in to support Thatcher because at that time the myth was that Labour were the c**ts.

Ah, this old myth again, in 1979 the Labour c**ts were over 10% ahead of the Tory c**ts. If that's "piling in to support" then the electorate have been massively piling in to support Corbyn according to most opinion polls.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Ah, this old myth again, in 1979 the Labour c**ts were over 10% ahead of the Tory c**ts. If that's "piling in to support" then the electorate have been massively piling in to support Corbyn according to most opinion polls.

Whatever.

As far as this thread goes it's all about the missing £10Bn I reckon. Have you found it yet?

And Nicola seems to have gone a bit quiet. Any reason, or isn't she feeling as outraged at the UK now the EU have made clear it won't make the up the missing £10Bn?

Edited July 8, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Whatever.

As far as this thread goes it's all about the missing £10Bn I reckon. Have you found it yet?

And Nicola seems to have gone a bit quiet. Any reason, or isn't she feeling as outraged at the UK now the EU have made clear it won't make the up the missing £10Bn?

No idea what you're on about, Neil.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

No idea what you're on about, Neil.

Scotland's £10Bn barnett money, which the loss of due to indy will cause destitution waaaay beyond what the tories might do.

You having a slow day or something?

[micawber]

This report pretty much confirms much of the prior arguments over Scotland's future financial independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36754022

"Supporters of Scottish independence now have a "golden opportunity" to re-cast their economic case in the wake of the Brexit vote, according to one of the most senior critics of the 2014 plans.

Sir Nicholas Macpherson has proposed a separate Scottish currency.

He also suggested that a big shift in tax and spending would probably require low taxes and a smaller, more efficient state sector.

Sir Nicholas was the top civil servant at the Treasury in Whitehall."

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, micawber said:

This report pretty much confirms much of the prior arguments over Scotland's future financial independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36754022

"Supporters of Scottish independence now have a "golden opportunity" to re-cast their economic case in the wake of the Brexit vote, according to one of the most senior critics of the 2014 plans.

Sir Nicholas Macpherson has proposed a separate Scottish currency.

He also suggested that a big shift in tax and spending would probably require low taxes and a smaller, more efficient state sector.

Sir Nicholas was the top civil servant at the Treasury in Whitehall."

Hmmmmm....

1. he only says it'll work if there's "a big shift in tax and spending would probably require low taxes and a smaller, more efficient state sector" - which is code for massive spending cuts and fewer public services.

2. he repeats "the Euro can be avoided, just look at Sweden" myth. Sweden joined the EU in 1996, and the rules have changed since to make the Euro an unavoidable part of membership.

3. he says "an independent Scotland could poach financial services work from London, though it might lose the headquarters of the Royal Bank of Scotland. That would mean a reduced state exposure to the risks carried by RBS" which sounds positive, but it's really saying "Scotland might poach some small stuff but it'll lose the big stuff of much more of real value" - and so a negative not a positive towards the Scottish economy.

And the Scottish Govt - the SNP - welcomes these comments ... that would mean a very different Scotland which wouldn't be able to look after it's poor as 'well' as now.... but while rejecting the idea of low public spending, despite not having the money for high public spending (we're back to exceptional Scottish financial magick).

It's still all about that missing £10Bn.

[micawber]

Yes, apart from the Euro-fudge, it's pretty much as had been expected. He even repeated that a sterling currency share was never going to be on the table for 2014.

[Comfy Bean]

Sir nic was the "architect of better together ".

It is the lead story on bbc news up here and covered in most of the papers.

The snp have had the opportunity to get their MPs on the news welcoming his change in tone regarding indy.

For me, it's far from a game changer but it's also far from bad news. Coming after some of the stuff from Labour it's almost becoming the norm now. Genuinely can't remember any news stories on people going from yes to no. The eu result has been the game changer for many and the trident vote could be the same. I think all but one of Scotlands MPs will vote against but like Syria it won't matter a jot.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Sir nic was the "architect of better together ".

It is the lead story on bbc news up here and covered in most of the papers.

The snp have had the opportunity to get their MPs on the news welcoming his change in tone regarding indy.

For me, it's far from a game changer but it's also far from bad news. Coming after some of the stuff from Labour it's almost becoming the norm now. Genuinely can't remember any news stories on people going from yes to no. The eu result has been the game changer for many and the trident vote could be the same. I think all but one of Scotlands MPs will vote against but like Syria it won't matter a jot.

^^this^^

Neil keeps telling us nothing has changed.

He's wrong.

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, LJS said:

^^this^^

Neil keeps telling us nothing has changed.

He's wrong.

Nothing has changed.

You're still fact-free and stupid.

As I've said, if you want poverty, go for it. But you're not going for it. Nothing has changed.

 

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Sir nic was the "architect of better together ".

It is the lead story on bbc news up here and covered in most of the papers.

The snp have had the opportunity to get their MPs on the news welcoming his change in tone regarding indy.

For me, it's far from a game changer but it's also far from bad news. Coming after some of the stuff from Labour it's almost becoming the norm now. Genuinely can't remember any news stories on people going from yes to no. The eu result has been the game changer for many and the trident vote could be the same. I think all but one of Scotlands MPs will vote against but like Syria it won't matter a jot.

everything's a game changer for someone who can't find his second brain cell.

Me, I've pointed out that £10Bn was a game changer in 2014 and £10Bn is the same game changer now.

If the game has changed and victory is assured, why doesn't Sturgeon want that victory by holdling a ref? What's stopping her?

Might it be that missing £10Bn? Why yes, it is.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

everything's a game changer for someone who can't find his second brain cell.

Me, I've pointed out that £10Bn was a game changer in 2014 and £10Bn is the same game changer now.

If the game has changed and victory is assured, why doesn't Sturgeon want that victory by holdling a ref? What's stopping her?

Might it be that missing £10Bn? Why yes, it is.

Let's just wait & see, Neil. 

[eFestivals]

26 minutes ago, LJS said:

Let's just wait & see, Neil. 

£10Bn will magically appear from the sky?

Scotland might be brain-dead enough to vote for indy, but a million votes can't make that £10bn magically appear.

Without it destitution is your future.

[LJS]

44 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

£10Bn will magically appear from the sky?

Scotland might be brain-dead enough to vote for indy, but a million votes can't make that £10bn magically appear.

Without it destitution is your future.

But if we stay in the UK outside the EU, we will be £17Bn worse off.

I'll take the £10Bn.

Edited July 11, 2016 by LJS

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

But if we stay in the UK outside the EU, we will be £17Bn worse off.

I'll take the £10Bn.

Would you tell me what that £17Bn you quote is all about LJS? Perhaps with a link too?

(I can feel a lot of laughter coming.... )

[eFestivals]

Pretty easy, a quick google of 'scotland £17bn' gave me the answer....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-17-bn-reportedly-drained-from-uk-economy-as-secession-fears-grow-9731081.html

and oh my fucking god, LJS .... no wonder nothing I say gets thru to you.

If you wish Scotland and it's people to live in the cesspit of your deliberately-chosen ignorance I'm happy for you. 

 

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Pretty easy, a quick google of 'scotland £17bn' gave me the answer....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-17-bn-reportedly-drained-from-uk-economy-as-secession-fears-grow-9731081.html

and oh my fucking god, LJS .... no wonder nothing I say gets thru to you.

If you wish Scotland and it's people to live in the cesspit of your deliberately-chosen ignorance I'm happy for you. 

 

Never seen that article.

If you remember during the Euro referendum campaign we were told by the remainers that we would each be £3400 a year worse off if we left the EU. There are roughly 5Million folk in Scotland times £3400 = £17bn.

When I challenged the £3400 figure, you defended it. 

I don't want to be £3400 a year worse off  - I'll take my chances with Independence,thanks.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Never seen that article.

If you remember during the Euro referendum campaign we were told by the remainers that we would each be £3400 a year worse off if we left the EU. There are roughly 5Million folk in Scotland times £3400 = £17bn.

When I challenged the £3400 figure, you defended it. 

I don't want to be £3400 a year worse off  - I'll take my chances with Independence,thanks.

Ahh, OK.

And losing the £10Bn barnett money on top of losing that £3400pa will make you what? Cos don't forget, you're going to lose your EU status no matter what.

You don't want to be £3400 a year worse off, but you're keen to be £4,800 a year worse off.

Really?

And then of course you wouldn't only be keeping (actually: re-making) your EU connections, you'd also be breaking your rUK connections - and do they not carry a value as the EU ones do? Perhaps, even, those costs might be 5 times as big as the £17Bn cost of losing the EU, seeing the connections are of at least 5 times the value?

When the considerations are made by you, Scotland is guaranteed indy.

[LJS]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Ahh, OK.

And losing the £10Bn barnett money on top of losing that £3400pa will make you what? Cos don't forget, you're going to lose your EU status no matter what.

 

thanks for your opinion professor Neil. As always, other opinions are available  (even more so than a couple of years ago- something else that has changed)

Even the citizens of Europe want us

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8796/poll-europeans-push-eu-governments-accept-independent-scotland