The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

And May has just told you to fuck off, anyway.

And how shall we fuck off, Theresa?

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

And how shall we fuck off, Theresa?

Yes, I'm not thinking those were the wisest words she's ever chosen. She might have taken a moment to get briefed on the basics of Sottish politics, such as the manifesto the SNP stood on.

If I were her, I'd have said something like "well, the SNP have a mandate and I have to respect that so they're welcome to the referendum if they like. However, I don't believe they can make a credible economic case without making people in Scotland much poorer."

And then ordered popcorn.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Yes, I'm not thinking those were the wisest words she's ever chosen. She might have taken a moment to get briefed on the basics of Sottish politics, such as the manifesto the SNP stood on.

If I were her, I'd have said something like "well, the SNP have a mandate and I have to respect that so they're welcome to the referendum if they like. However, I don't believe they can make a credible economic case without making people in Scotland much poorer."

And then ordered popcorn.

I wish I'd bought shares in popcorn 6 months ago.

[LJS]

As everyone knows I never post links to The Bishop of Bath's esteemed site. But I am happy to post a tweet from Andrew Marr which contains a link to that very site... and bigs it up. Golly Gosh.

 Sorry to be more accurate he retweets a man whose tweet contains a link to Da Bishop.

We do indeed live in strange times.

& Neil, don't bother, we know you know much more about the EU than Andrew Marr.

[LJS]

Hey Neil

I see your very favourite EU expert has spoken.

Quote

 

Scotland's chances of remaining in the EU are good. At the time of the 2014 referendum, Scottish independence was opposed by the British government, and other EU members did not wish to weaken the UK. As a result of the EU referendum, in which it voted to remain, Scotland has gained friends among other Europeans, while the British government has lost goodwill....

 

At some time, probably during the next two years, the Scottish government will have to decide whether or not to proceed to another independence referendum. In that situation, the EU should prepare to welcome Scotland as a member.

http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

 

 

I'll leave this here for you to rip it to shreds with your superior expertise on all things European.

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

As everyone knows I never post links to The Bishop of Bath's esteemed site. But I am happy to post a tweet from Andrew Marr which contains a link to that very site... and bigs it up. Golly Gosh.

 Sorry to be more accurate he retweets a man whose tweet contains a link to Da Bishop.

We do indeed live in strange times.

& Neil, don't bother, we know you know much more about the EU than Andrew Marr.

I was hours ahead of you.

And why shouldn't Marr? There's a side that the UK press isn't covering, which WoS gives (along with the normal amount of surrounding myth, false grievance and plain bollocks).

But what's missing? An unequivical statement of fact telling you what you dearly wish were true.

Never mind, eh? All you've done is found another empty thing to grasp in support of the unsupportable.

Cos even if the EU said "not only will we welcome you, we'll let you set all EU policy" it still ain't giving Scotland that missing £10Bn.

 

 

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

Hey Neil

I see your very favourite EU expert has spoken.

 

I'll leave this here for you to rip it to shreds with your superior expertise on all things European.

he doesn't seem to say when the "EU should prepare to welcome Scotland as a member". Why is that?  And nor does he say if a welcome will be extended prior to Scotland's post-indy application.

All he says is that the EU is open to new members. No shit sherlock, who knew?

He doesn't address anything about how Scotland doesn't meet the entry criteria.
He doesn't mention anything about how Scotland is a hugely long way from being able to be evaluated for entry.
He doesn't mention the cost to Scotland of forming the necessary institutions.
He doesn't mention anything of Scotland's fiscal position and how its contrary to EU rules, or how other entry applications have become stalled for years because of the same (tho much smaller than Scotland's) deficit problem..
He doesn't mention anything of the opinions of other member states about Scotland's non-compliance with the entry rules (tho he does mention how some Europeans think a Scotland they know nothing of is a bit sweet in a nicely patronising way).
He doesn't mention how a membership smarting from financially carrying Greece - where that carrying is often being done by societies poorer than Greece - has absolutely no intention of taking on another financial cripple with no intention of reform.

And he doesn't mention anything of how Scotland itself is not mentally ready to accept the terms of EU membership.

Apart from those minor matters it's encouraging for you, I'll give you that.

Edited July 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: "In this briefing he expresses his personal views"

Tho what it should really say is, in this un-academic briefing he displays his bias and lack of attachment to the facts of international law.

 

[Comfy Bean]

For me it's just another, admittedly tiny, step in the right direction. 

As I said the other day, we have had a steady stream of positive stories on indy since the eu ref that snp MPs have been able to get in front of the cameras to welcome. 

Definitely a change in tone from Labour and the daily record as well. Again, in isolation not so important but I think adding to the momentum. Next poll will be interesting and maybe an announcement coming soon around currency. 

Difficult one to spin if it's a move away from the currency plan last time but the eu stuff will give the clever snp party machine the perfect back drop to sell it....in my opinion of course :-)

Also noticed t may using ruths line about the conservative and unionist party. Hope she keeps that up as it's the continuing support from traditional labour supporters that the snp and greens need to get this over the line.

[Comfy Bean]

Forgot to mention a busy week ahead for snp and greens with the trident vote.

All but the one tory mp from Scotland expected to vote against. 

Not that it will make any difference of course. See Syria,  the Eu etc etc. 

Better together etc etc 

[eFestivals]

and everyone is still sidestepping the fact that no one has a solution for the missing £10Bn.

It's almost like everyone is scared to mention it, i wonder why....?

Sooner or later the focus will be on the economics, and then the desperation of Scotland's position will set in.

If there's a way forwards for the SNP at the end of this episode*, the way forwards will be willing cuts to Scotland's public expenditure. Are you ready to sign up to that comfy...?

(* that is, if you reject indy again - and Scotland doesn't need a vote to do that, cos having no vote after all the current rhetoric will be the equivalent of another lost vote; everyone will know why it's not happened. Then again, you might be daft enough to go for indy anyway, in which case good luck cos you're gonna need it).

[pink_triangle]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Forgot to mention a busy week ahead for snp and greens with the trident vote.

All but the one tory mp from Scotland expected to vote against

Do you think the trident vote is the government looking to really debate the pros and cons of the issue,  or purely a political game to knock labour when they are down? 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Forgot to mention a busy week ahead for snp and greens with the trident vote.

All but the one tory mp from Scotland expected to vote against. 

Not that it will make any difference of course. See Syria,  the Eu etc etc. 

Better together etc etc 

The better together that your countrymen actively wanted to continue with, where decisions such as these are not made by Scotland, and last poll I saw didn't have a majority of Scots against Trident either.

I don't want Trident either, but I'm big enough to accept that it's not my view that counts.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

Do you think the trident vote is the government looking to really debate the pros and cons of the issue,  or purely a political game to knock labour when they are down? 

you missed: "show the UK the SNP, again" too.

The SNP are great for gaining the tories extra support.

[Comfy Bean]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The better together that your countrymen actively wanted to continue with, where decisions such as these are not made by Scotland, and last poll I saw didn't have a majority of Scots against Trident either.

I don't want Trident either, but I'm big enough to accept that it's not my view that counts.

I realise you are well versed in snp manifestos and you will be aware that the folk in Scotland voted an outrageous 56 out of a possible 59 snp MPs into Westminster. 

Ns has campaigned all her life against trident and has the backing of her country against nukes. 

I support her, can you say the same? 

[Comfy Bean]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you missed: "show the UK the SNP, again" too.

The SNP are great for gaining the tories extra support.

By standing up, again, against the tories? 

Do you think labour will abstain...again? 

[Comfy Bean]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Do you think the trident vote is the government looking to really debate the pros and cons of the issue,  or purely a political game to knock labour when they are down? 

I think the UK govt want/need to spend the money on nukes for several reasons and I fully expect they will get their way.

One of the reasons may be to retain the rule brittania world police chums of America image.

Only the one tory mp from up here will play along with this bullshit.

Shameful scenes :-(

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I realise you are well versed in snp manifestos and you will be aware that the folk in Scotland voted an outrageous 56 out of a possible 59 snp MPs into Westminster. 

Ns has campaigned all her life against trident and has the backing of her country against nukes. 

I support her, can you say the same? 

Hey comfy, maybe we should let them keep their WMD at Faslane...& charge them £10bn per year rent.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

By standing up, again, against the tories? 

Do you think labour will abstain...again? 

Labours policy is to support trident and is supported by the unions.  However in this case I would support abstention as I feel it's just a trap set by the torys, rather than a genuine discussion. 

[Comfy Bean]

Just now, LJS said:

Hey comfy, maybe we should let them keep their WMD at Faslane...& charge them £10bn per year rent.

£9.5 billion you mean  ;-)

Come to think of it.....Would a no nuke indy Scotland not represent yet another saving...

Where are labour at the moment on the nukes up here? 

Serious question. Kez was unclear if I remember but think she is now against. 

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I realise you are well versed in snp manifestos and you will be aware that the folk in Scotland voted an outrageous 56 out of a possible 59 snp MPs into Westminster. 

Ns has campaigned all her life against trident and has the backing of her country against nukes. 

I support her, can you say the same? 

I don't give a shit about Scotland on a Scotland-only basis, just as i don't give a shit about England on a England-only basis.

Can you say the same?

Edited July 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think the UK govt want/need to spend the money on nukes for several reasons and I fully expect they will get their way.

One of the reasons may be to retain the rule brittania world police chums of America image.

 

While you can discuss the pros and cons,  this debate is not there for that reason.  It's there purely to cause damage to Labour. 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

By standing up, again, against the tories? 

If you like.

But it's really about the selfish me-only attitudes, and you know that.

 

14 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you think labour will abstain...again? 

Abstain from what? The Trident replacement vote?

Labour policy is to support the replacement - so I expect there'll be a significant number who do that - tho Jezza is expected to say it's a free vote ... not that he's in the position to whip his MPs over any line he might give.

I'll just remind you, cos some seem to forget it: defence of the nation is neither a left or right issue.

Meanwhile, the campaign you support rejects nukes so very much its desperate to stay under the umbrella of other-people's nukes. So much for sovereignty.

[Comfy Bean]

Just now, eFestivals said:

I don't give a shit about Scotland on a Scotland-only basis, just as i don't give a shit about England on a England-only basis.

Can you say the same?

Lol

I was responding,  by quoting, your post where you mentioned a poll on Scots and trident. 

I thought the snp commitments on trident and the support they have were relevant to the discussion at that time.

I'm almost certain you realise that the nukes decision is bigger than Scotland or England and I'm happy that sturgeon is passionately representing my views. Scotland will vote not to renew but as you know. This will count for nothing. 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

£9.5 billion you mean  ;-)

Come to think of it.....Would a no nuke indy Scotland not represent yet another saving...

Nope.

But thanks for demonstrating yet again how little of what you support you actually know about.